[000:00:00;00] victims of human trafficking have found themselves in danger or see others in danger, call to learn more about safety rules and opportunities to help 1+1 continues the national telethon at this time we are working in the format of a discussion platform night watch and the topic we chose today for our conversation is very actively discussed in the last days in society, let's talk about myths and the truth surrounding the zaporizhzhia npp, why did we choose this topic, because there are talks about putin wanting to provoke explosions in zaporizhzhia they have been grinding at the npp for about two weeks, but in recent days, clear signals have begun to arrive

from the main intelligence agency about what this really can happen. today , we have four of the six mined blocks and they also say that the russians have already begun to withdraw from the zaporizhzhia npp and talk to we invited this topic to our studio volodymyr ivanovich borysenko, head of the department of atomic energy, institute of safety problems of nuclear power plants national academy of sciences of ukraine welcome thank you for coming hello, and mykola shtynberg will join us during the broadcast. he is the former chief engineer of the chornobyl npp. i would like to ask him why we cannot compare the chornobyl npp with what happened after volodymyr ivanovich zaporizhzhia. let's start with what is known at the moment about the work or not the work and in general the state of the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, what

is happening inside it. well, next, because we will talk about what threats there may be around it. well, it is good to make such a small historical export that the plant in in principle, it was mined not yesterday, not the day before yesterday, as soon as it was captured back in march of the 22nd year, since then it has already been prohibited practically along the perimeter to protect against possible actions from the ukrainian side. the efforts of the russian federation that this large structure , the zaporizhzhia station, consisting of six nuclear power units, would be worth a thousand already if it belonged to them, is not justified and they are trying to blackmail as a family by means of methods

the ukrainian side so that we stop, some negotiations began and somehow they came out of this situation with a more successful result because of that. a lot of information. well, it was actually mined and a lot was affected by the explosion of the kakhovsky hydroelectric power station, and the level of the kakhovsky reservoir contributed precisely to the fact that the zaporizhzhia station could, well, with the project conditions, fill its reservoir cooler that is used to cool fuel well, today, as the kakhovskaya storage has already disappeared, there are certain problems that may arise if it is necessary to top up the level of the cooler the last one there is already the moment of the explosion there since june 6, more than three weeks have passed, the level of the cooler pond is practically unchanged, there are almost 50 million cubic meters of water. well, today it has decreased there, well, at most by 10 cm , the average depth there is 5 m. it is possible to estimate how much under normal conditions under the conditions of operation, it will last for at least several months if it is not even replenished. but we are many, well, long enough already, why

is the station not working, the reactors, rectors are silenced , and er, to wait, well, that is, they are not in a hot state, is it correct, well, we understand. well, hot stations are enough , so that is a broad concept. yes, indeed, which one belongs to such a broad generality that it is clear. yes, the station is valid. the last unit, the sixth, which worked, well , it is not under full capacity there, at intermediate power levels, it worked until on september 11, it was stopped on september 11. since then, not a single unit produces electricity and , accordingly, is not in a so-called critical state, in which these fission products can accumulate, which are the main danger for personnel. for the surrounding environment, well, since then it has been already more than nine months even for the sixth block, for all the others there , the first and second, in general, at the beginning of the occupation , no one has been in operation for more than a year, most of the blocks have not worked during this time, indeed

, the amount of radioactivity, well, what is the general term fuel has accumulated there and may cause damage. if it is damaged there and these products are introduced into the surrounding environment, then it has decreased for this unit , which has not worked there for 9 months, thousands of times , 3,000 times. and for those that are more than a year, then 5,000 times, someone can estimate for themselves that if what event had taken place on a working block, the notes would have been a thousand times more, then the danger would have been if our blocks were working under occupation, although some assured us that everything is dangerous, they are under control, well, it is difficult for a person to imagine how they are under the control of ukraine, if there is at the entrance and exit of the surrounding control panels, there is military from armaments news that they are already leaving the 30th zaporizhzhya npp , the evacuation of certain military personnel in energodar begins

of russian employees this is reported by gur and i would like to know what the scenarios could be, you are talking about the decrease in the amount of radioactive substances, this is the case if they dare to explode, if they detonate certain blocks, what can happen , let's give 1 2 3 for people to understand because is already taking place and the training is talking about the fact that there may be an evacuation from the nearest cities of nikopol kryvyi rih, which cities may be affected and how long it will take for people to return there, that is, the scenario of the event, which the scenarios can really be very different from, well, the explosion of the zaporizhzhia station, such a term is definitely very good. well, if you even want to blow up something around you, do not touch the fuel that is located either in active zones or regional storage facilities. well, a large part is already in a cold state in the spent fuel storage there are almost 2,000 tons of fuel at the site of the zaporizhia station, that is, 174 separate concrete containers. so, if it is

such an external blast or even a warehouse , then in principle it will be a threat, well enough yes, if you can say as a minimum, this fuel is in a cold state. water is not needed to cool it, and it is already cooled by the air in this container. therefore, this explosion can cause if the container and fuel are damaged, then it will be a local accident there, well, within a radius of a few kilometers at most, if it will be some kind of powerful special purpose explosive device, well, first of all , the population lives accordingly, and as for the detonation of the blocks themselves, the situation here is not as well defined as the blocks themselves there is no point in blowing up if these safety systems are preserved in all the pipelines and steam pipelines that provide water supply for fuel cooling in the active zones and in the holding pools , then nothing will happen in principle if they go to the extreme and try

to damage the fuel, well, it can be done e- well, by cutting off the supply of thermal coolant water or by cutting off the supply of electricity, because all this requires pumps that pump this water to supply it for cooling here, then well, it will be clearly visible that this is not some kind of they are not will be able to shift the responsibility to the ukrainian side that it is like the ukrainian military fired at something and destroyed it because to get there, where all this equipment is located , it’s not like that, it’s just from the outside, because it’s located there, you will have a picture of these protective shells of these 6, as they are called the pans standing at the zaporizhzhia station are hermetically sealed structures, the concrete is more than a meter thick. well , it is strong enough, it can withstand high loads, both external and internal. well, in principle, even a light aircraft weighing 10-15 tons is there

if he gets into it, nothing will happen, she will knock him out, relatively speaking , in one of the most terrible such scenarios, this is not physics, the explosion of explosives is nearby , outside, somewhere. it is impossible to say that the directors themselves are in the depths of the so-called critical condition , the concentration of boric acid drowned us, there is a so-called easel above, so in unfavorable conditions there, er, criticality cannot occur , a self-sustaining reaction is self-reinforcing it is there that unfavorable conditions cannot arise, but this fuel has constantly accumulated during its operation a large amount of radioactive substances inside, and these substances represent a danger, firstly, if they go outside, then it will be if we are inspired by them, we will eat agricultural products there there are some meadows. well, what do we grow? no, or animals that will eat this grass in the pastures. accordingly, we will drink some milk, eat cheese, butter, and it will get

inside us. well, accordingly, these eyes are radioactive the products will irradiate us three already inside. well, and accordingly, when the particles fly out, they have high energy, they damage our cells, well, well, and these cells take part in the further metabolism by changing giving birth. the same damage to cells is why there are different forms of cancer and why what about this explosion? i'm sorry, i want to clarify. and this explosion can happen on its own if you just limit the access of water to the explosion there . it can't happen if you limit the access of water. accumulated, they not only emit this radiation when it interacts with the fuel itself with the structural elements, it gives off the energy of this radiation and it heats up, and therefore it is constantly necessary to pump water through this fuel in order to take away this heat, if you stop pumping water, then this water will heat up, evaporate and disappear and, accordingly, the fuel will remain without water and then it will start to overheat, this is the worst scenario that when the fuel overheats

, the structural elements there are zirconium the shell of the channel, it can be heated at a temperature of more than 80-50 degrees. it starts to interact with steam. there will be steam because it is there. the remains have already occurred . a chemical reaction has already begun . the so- called zirconium steam is a variation of hydrogen release. the external consequences that we are observing arose due to the fact that when it is impossible to provide combustible heat , these zirconium vapors react , hydrogen is formed, this hydrogen accumulates . well, in the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen vapors, which is in the air at a certain ratio, explosions occur even without external influence, in a simple scenario, you said that it would be difficult for russia to blame ukraine, well, that is, everyone will clearly understand that russia did it, because it is all inside it . well, the power is now supplied to the equipment that supports these technological processes today well, during the last year, from the very beginning , it is indeed from the ukrainian side, how is

the high-voltage line of 750 kw dniprovsk or how it goes through kakhovsk in the past you can already say the storage facility was also controlled by the russians, and for some reason the world was silent for two days of protest, this line. the main part of it is located on the ukrainian side, so when there are shelling from the occupied part, sometimes it was damaged almost 8 times. was damaged, and in this case, the station needs some other sources of electricity - this is the backup diesel of the power station, which is started there on each block, there are three such three separate channels, there are also two backup ones for the entire station, that is, you have to start six on three plus two will be 20 parts of the generators that are supposed to supply electricity for these systems, they have already done this seven times when they were started . well, over the course of a day, they managed to repair this power line at most, so it was restored again if they were unable

to supply electricity either from the ukrainian side or something prevented there with diesel generators , well, it’s easier to damage the generator, give them fuel there. well, they are in separate buildings, you can call them your own, so you can blow up the generators themselves, unlock the station, then they will such consequences. how will you calculate the bill? well, not for an hour like today. some people say there are 10-20 hours when the station is working at full capacity, then every second each block of 1 gb of electrical power turns 1 ton of water into steam, one cubic meter of water every second. today we they already said 3-5 thousand times that every second a maximum of a liter of water is needed to maintain thermal conditions, so if the ukrainian side or the people are able to do it, they should bring a fire truck, which is 5-10 tons, to each block at least once an hour there will be water

to be enough, well, the problem is that we are not being transferred. we are trying that if this does not interfere with this, if olena volodymyra ivanovich what do you think or m. kakhovsky hpp. do you think this caused just this chain reaction, that is, if putin saw the worthy reaction of our international partners and the russian population after the explosion of kakhovsky now, because we were not sitting in the studio talking about the possible explosion on zaporizhzhia oblast that the russians immediately after the occupation of the zaporizhzhia npp and kakhovka hpp they planned similar scenarios, they were mined at the same time and the dam and the zaporizhzhia npp , so i think that the reaction of the world is not important for putin here, it is important for him to demonstrate that he is completely detached from the real world , he is ready for anything and this is exactly what he is trying to scare the world with. he is publicly demonstrating that we blew up the kakhova hydroelectric power station, and we did not stop before that, and no one in the world has done such a thing, and

then our next step may be to blow it up zaporizhzhia npp and we are not afraid of that either, so when you say that you will help ukraine with additional f16 weapons or something else or support the ukrainian counteroffensive, then i will go for it and will not stop. i think that the aggressor has planted such messages here and that's why the world's reaction to the kakhovka hpp was quite sluggish. i want to ask further, yes, i'm announcing the question. you said the first scenario, when they blow up the spent fuel storage, there may be damage - damage, radioactive contamination there with a radius of several kilometers, but what will the zone be? damage, what radioactive elements will we encounter if they go to this second, more complex and more powerful

scenario, we will talk about it in a few minutes, a year ago we received official evidence that we have long been a part of the civilized european world, ukraine became a candidate for eu membership and this is only the first , albeit important, step towards full membership in the european union, so as not to remain in place, we are confidently moving towards the goal of establishing the rule of law through the total cleansing of the judicial system, there are no more untouchables reducing the influence of oligarchs, an effective anti-corruption program, recognized by the world for the effectiveness of anti-corruption bodies , effective financial monitoring, prevention of money laundering, strengthening of human rights and freedoms, conditions for the development of independent media and dozens of other laws that implement the principles of the european union, there is still a lot of work to be done, and ukraine will pass this way because we are creating a decent future

for our children ukraine is europe when the country trembles from the explosions when the night becomes day from the explosions we worry about our relatives and we are worried about our help forces against of air defense, they hold the heavenly front. they protect us, and we must protect them. do not shoot and do not post photos and videos of air defense operations on the network. have one password for different sites and networks. fraudsters can hack you . use different passwords. do not give scammers a chance to deceive you.

on the air, the night watch project talks about the fears and realities of what can happen at the zaporizhia npp in the studio volodymyr ivanovich borysenko, head of the atomic energy department of the institute of safety problems at of power plants of the national academy of sciences of ukraine, and the question that we voiced before our break was what will happen after that if russia follows this more complicated scenario of blowing up the zaporizhzhia npp , when they will form a pair of circulating mixture when they will, so to speak, accelerate the reactor and blow up not the storage of nuclear fuel that is contaminated there is an area of ​​several kilometers and they will blow up the reactor itself and in such a way that it will be in the air, what area of ​​contamination can await us, well, they will not be able to create a mixture, they are creating the conditions under which this

the mixture fights itself, well, this is a very long process. i didn’t know that it would be several days at least. well, it will take 5-7 days if the water supply to the technological systems is completely stopped. if there are still parallels, the pipelines themselves and the reactor housings themselves or some holding pools will be damaged then, of course, these topics will be less , well, anyway, the amount of active substances in the incendiary after a year of its almost non-use, it has changed, decreased there a thousand times ago, and this residual drug release will not be enough to palo heated up there to these temperatures, which can be compared there in a thousand or higher , at which this couple is a church variation, well, the idea is the most intensive. but the fuel today is practically in such a condition that it can be compared there with some

domestic such examples, and the power of one heat-separating assembly in their active zones is 163 today, which is the largest there in the area family, well, the most powerful is 10 kw, it weighs 700 kg and has a power of 10 kw. well, if you have some kind of heater at home, then they are modern ones with a power of 2 3 5 kw. well, you can especially imagine that it is not very big. less, if you do not turn off your heater or the automatic regulator does not turn it off periodically, then it will also overheat and there will not be enough air cooling, it will also be the assemblies if you pour them into water, conditionally speaking, to do something , then this internal heat energy will be enough in order for it to be damaged and then everything that has accumulated there, well, some amount will come out. well, anyway, it will be much less, thousands of times less than in the active state of the active zone itself when it is operated

, because then the temperature is above 1000°, the fuel itself is exported, and those products that have accumulated there, there is such a term as physical diffusion coefficients, so how many of them can come out of this fuel, well, the fuel is such small tablets there, up to 8 mm in diameter , 1.5 cm high, and all the products are inside, if it is cool, it is there 300 500-600-700°, then practically everything remains inside if you heat it to 1200 , then it all comes out anyway, on the subconscious mind there are pictures that we saw from history after the accident at the chornobyl npp, after the accident at fokusim , you can’t compare them correctly. that’s why not you can compare what happened at the chornobyl npp on focusim with what can happen, we can prepare a picture, you can see now on this wall the zaporizhia asta is depicted, the chornobyl

npp will now appear in a few seconds and e let's ask you, mr. volodymyr ivanovich, to compare exactly how zaporizhzhia was already built and taking into account what happened at the focus, what happened uh what happened at the chornobyl npp well, not on focus and because it happened not so long ago, 12 years ago, what happened at the chornobyl npp what are the features of the construction? well, it is difficult to say here, taking into account the fact that the first block of the zaporizhzhia station was built there in 1984, there is the fifth, it was successively launched one block every year, with the exception of the fifth block in 1980, that is, it was built a long time ago, almost before the first blocks of the chernobyl accident were built in the same way. well, it is already covered by a structure with a safe barrier. we are there at the zaporizhzhia station, so what is the main difference that the blocks of the rbmk type are e-e blocks that do not have a protective shell. the protective shell at the zaporizhia station is such cylindrical structures that we see are red with

a lid on top like a lid from a saucepan, and they can withstand very high internal pressure up to five atmospheres. the main equipment is located in this protective shell, it is the pipelines of the first circuit, the reactor itself, all the main safety systems , everything is inside, therefore, it is difficult to influence them from the outside, because there is an external influence, there are some shellings, well, such ordinary ones, let’s say military ones, eh, in a projectile, they eh, they cannot damage them restrain certain emissions of certain substances yes, if it cannot happen on its own inside, there must be some conditions, these conditions can be created if, well , it is possible to blow it up inside, well, well, what have we not led to if in if the fuel did not work for you, then it is also in a cold state , it will fall apart, it is being considered. well, it can be blown somewhere with the wind, it can be carried to the same

places. it worked, and when was it conducted? tests of security equipment, as i am a project manager, and not as everyone wants to say that these are some additional experiments, they were conducted. well , taking into account certain design flaws of the device itself, well, it is enough. bad if you say that if water is drained from it from this reactor in the previous design , it accelerates and becomes critical if water is poured into the safety system of the regulatory bodies, it also cools down if the regulatory bodies that are supposed to extinguish the reaction are started, it also accelerates , that is why it was doomed, especially under the conditions that he was a guest of whom we will add just now, this is mykola shteinberg, a former engineer of the chornobyl npp, we congratulate you, mr. mykola

, we congratulate you, why can’t we compare chernobyl npp and possibly an accident at zaporizhzhia, because everyone still remembers pictures of what happened after the evacuation of pollution. if such an explosion happens at zaporizhia npp, how many years will it take to even clean up this area, and why, of course, you can't compare chornobyl zaporizhzhia with the current situation in zaporizhzhia

the station will be 9,000 uah . the construction of the variator did not wait for any sky of ukraine of the dermatological system

. everything will be unpleasant, and again, this will have catastrophic consequences, because they were going to start exactly. that's great, in principle, stop me from the details, i don't think about it because it's more, when it's okay to do it , when we'll see a specialist if you have one today, well, you know, it's very, very cool that volodymyr ivanovich and you are with us today on the air, viewers can hear the position on and possible development scenarios from people who are specialists and not read the internet and find there some scary scenarios that russia can press a button and the entire zaporizhzhia as will blow up and cover kyiv and the carpathians and cover half of europe, the black sea, turkey, it is very, very important that specialists and professionals are on our air and explain everything ap mykola, what

scenario do you see for the possible development of events in the near future, what else options that russia can implement in order to detonate , volodymyr ivanovich says that the first scenario is possible simply physical detonation and storage of spent fuel, the second scenario is to deprive the reactors of water and cause and thus create the conditions for an explosion but this will be stretched in time, which you can see scenarios of how russia can play out this explosion, what is the plan of the stop, what i think there

is nothing of such a catastrophic nature, that's why everything is worse than now, we are there in europe in general, as from the front , with active materials, this is all panic talks were successful, theatrical technical opportunity and how would your words become a nuisance? you wrote an appeal in 2001-21 in march, when the russians shelled the chernobyl nuclear power plant and behaved irresponsibly when they went there in 22 i'm sorry, so uh, and it was written out then, i know that it is for children and a tragedy for adults, for family

and friends, for those who are close to the epicenter and those who are 1000 km away. i know how a peaceful atom kills friends. i know what forces and how much life is worth . the fight against the mirnematom that got out of control considering what is happening today around the zaporizhzhya npp what can you say and remembering the past that you experienced related to the tragedy at the chernobyl npp, i wanted to once again the kholodnaya station blocks with paws work более 9 месяц these things are temporary technologies