[000:00:00;00] see you tomorrow until 18:10 espresso serhiy rudenko and the verdict program are watching together good evening we are from ukraine glory to ukraine this is the verdict program my name is serhiy rudenko i congratulate everyone i wish everyone good health on july 11 in vilnius , the north atlantic alliance itself began among the issues that stand before this summit and before nato - this is the future of ukraine, it is currently known that sweden, whose accession turkey did not want very much, will nevertheless receive a green light for the north atlantic alliance in the movement to the north atlantic alliance well, ukrainians

will also join nato, it is not yet known when , but the consensus is that ukraine will definitely be a nato member country and that the action plan for nato membership is canceled for the ukrainian state, that is, there will not be these two-stage, two-level accessions of ukraine to nato, but there will be no deadline for joining of ukraine at the tone. when will it take place? will it be at the washington summit in a year, or maybe even later? it is currently unknown, although it was in that vilnius that he was more needed by the north atlantic alliance itself than in ukraine, although we understand that in ukraine it is important to hear a positive answer from nato. but what is happening these days, well, lithuanian capitals, this is also about

the future of the north atlantic alliance . will depend on what will happen to the alliance itself. will it fulfill a defensive role in the whole world and will it fulfill the tasks assigned to it ? we will talk about all this in the next hour. the three guests are the former minister of infrastructure, and now a serviceman of the armed forces of ukraine, volodymyr omelyan, a political expert and people's deputy of the sixth convocation, volodymyr tsibulko, and the current people's deputy of ukraine, elected people 's deputy yevgenia kravchuk, i will traditionally start with information about the losses of the occupiers in ukraine at the beginning of the great war in ukraine already 235.20 russians died in the last

day alone, the armed forces of ukraine destroyed 540 people with the beginning of the great war, the russians have already lost 4.89 tanks in ukraine, 7,983 armored combat vehicles cars , 4,385 artillery systems , 672 rocket launchers , 414 air defense systems, 315 aircraft, 310 helicopters, 6,937 vehicles, 18 ships, boats, 1,271 cruise missiles, 3,693 drones, and 640 special units. today, friends, we are asking about this, are you satisfied with the outcome of the nato summit in vilnius, yes , absolutely no, your option, please put your attacks in the corresponding graphs, and

well, we will see at the end of the program what there will be the results of this vote, i want to introduce today's first guest - this is volodymyr omelyan, the former minister of infrastructure, now a serviceman of the armed forces of ukraine, mr. volodymyr. i congratulate you and i am glad to see you on our air. i congratulate serhii, i missed you too . good evening today is such a significant day and a significant date the nato summit because , as i already said, it is not only the fate of ukraine that is being decided, but the fate of nato itself and the future of europe and the future of the world is being decided, because it is not only about the accession of ukraine to nato or there is the invitation of ukraine to nato and how this north atlantic forest will fulfill its role as a defense mission during russia's war against ukraine. stoltenberg said that nato members firmly agreed that ukraine should become a member of the alliance, but there are no specific terms.

he said that we will do this invitation when all the members of the north atlantic alliance say yes, that is, everyone agrees to this and then this invitation will be specially sent. i understand that this does not exactly correspond to the fact that we all we were waiting because we were waiting, of course, not for the announcement that ukraine is joining nato, but at least the official invitation of this official invitation did not sound, what does it mean in diplomatic language, that is , what this invitation will be maybe at the end of the war that this invitation can be at the washington summit or maybe never not to happen as during the bukharev summit , in fact, first of all, we must always remember and we know that this is our war and, above all, we are fighting

, we must be grateful every day to our allies who stand by us in these terrible battles because without them, the situation would be much sadder and, unfortunately, bloodier due to today's summit, which tomorrow will flow into the meeting of the ukraine nato council. i am actually an optimist, and so are you. that president zelenskyy is no longer looking for some mysterious other mechanisms instead, even last year such ideas were sounded that he clearly understands that the only key to the security of ukraine in the future is our membership to the north atlantic alliance, this is a very good change within ukraine. has there been a change in the countries in the nato countries? did they all happen

like this, even in the strange hungary, which is headed by an obvious agent of the kremlin, orban, nevertheless , they support ukraine in crimea, which was literally half an hour ago - half an hour ago, it was spread there excellent points in support of ukraine and there it is clearly stated that the future of ukraine is in nato, therefore there is no betrayal , they support us, they will support us, and definitely our allies want us to be nato members such as the united states or great britain. maybe even better than france and definitely better than hungary. this is our mission and we must clearly formulate for ourselves how we see ourselves in these structures. what new things do we bring to them besides the ability to fight and uh

having shown the same successes in reforming the country, introducing a transparent judiciary and an efficient and transparent government, and a favorable business climate, we will turn into something like a new china for europe and a new united states, because in addition to the ability to trade, we will be able to fight well and to defend europe from the east and if there was not a majority and this is what happened from this direction, that's why today there is definitely no tragedy if there are any political ambitions that are dissatisfied with someone well, we have to withstand this blow of fate in a personal capacity or, er, the number of ambitions of a political party mr. volodymyr, or rather about the warning , i would like to remind you that this afternoon, july 11 , when the nato summit started, zelenskyi criticized our

partners as members of the alliance on the way to vilnius. timeframes both for the invitation and for the membership of ukraine and when, instead, some strange wording is added about the conditions even for the invitation of ukraine, it looks like there is no readiness either to invite ukraine to nato or to make it a member of the alliance, according to you, why is president zelensky quite so sharp today he made sharp attacks, it is clear that he was waiting for one thing and it did not come and it is obvious that president zelensky wants to be the president under which ukraine will still become a member of the north atlantic treaty organization and this an absolutely normal desire for a politician, and even more so for a president of war and not a president of peace. well, this is understandable, but still , did he not hand over honey in this situation , because really, as you said, the countries

of the north atlantic alliance provided a lot of help, and without this help, it is obvious that russian tanks would have been standing on the western borders of ukraine. yes, well, look, i support the president of ukraine in every possible way in this desire of his, i did not support him in another desire that existed before this absolutely on the contrary, now i support him and i believe that it will not only be his success, it will be the success of all of us, but in fact globally, uh, this is the same member is not granted for the duration of the presidency of one or another person, it is for a decade. i hope that this alliance will exist effectively against for many subsequent generations, what happened happened is obvious, well, look, the principles of the kryvyi rih school of geopolitics do not work on a global scale. a completely different approach was needed here, and these incursions in the style of liver

sausage there or old grandfather are not here either thank god, our partners are healthy politicians who are not offended by personal attacks in their direction and they think in categories of the state, but here, too , it is not necessary not to pass on honey to the kuti and remember that hunting for the well from which you want to drink later it's not a very smart act , so i really hope that after this emotional day today, tomorrow at the inaugural public meeting of the ukraine nato council, we will see a completely different ukrainian team, a well-balanced team with structured decisions and clear approaches to further reforms, because it is not only about military reform and somewhere only about war, they want us to see a reliable ally just like we see in them, this should be proposed, it would definitely be reasonable for the president of ukraine to try to draw up

an exhaustive list of demands for a further political decision tomorrow. let's at least unofficially understand what terms we are talking about. are they washington's own? like next year or is this a more distant story? we must also realize this for ourselves, but we must do something, and i will remind you once again that the principles of nato what they tell us about and the reforms they are talking about, they are primarily based on trust, can we trust corrupt people and agents of the kremlin, well, the question is, volodymyr , during the last five days, i talked a lot with those who were once a civilian and became a military serviceman, like you and most of the people already 500 days after the beginning of the great war are talking about the fact that i have changed, the army has changed, the people around me who were civilians have changed, that is, the army already meets the standards that

the north atlantic alliance is talking about how much has society and the government changed during this time, because part of the demands and part of those proposals that come from the north atlantic alliance, although we are bypassing the pdc, but still the requirements for how the government should develop, how institutions in the ukrainian state should work, they remain, that is, e- because everyone says that you should also carry out reforms , you should take certain steps there , that is, you cannot stop only at the fact that there are armed forces of ukraine, and this is enough for us to take you to the north atlantic alliance how do you assess the society and the government of the armed forces of ukraine? it is clear because there is the highest level of trust and it is clear that the armed forces of ukraine

switched to nato standards in the shortest possible time . well, you know that this transition is very difficult with a lot of blood. takes place in the 47th brigade and just before that marcus's statement came out. i hope that important decisions will be made and this will not harm our effectiveness in relation to the authorities. my honest opinion is that i can afford it as a military serviceman. it is degrading. i don't see a solution to the program. i don't see that in a year and a half we switched to a war economy. i don't see a single defense plant that was launched and whose products would save the lives of thousands of ukrainian soldiers . let's manage this money, it won't be like that and i think that this is a huge mistake in relation to society, i have less contact with them now, it mostly happens on the front line or in the places where

my unit is based, i see people very traumatized, they took the horrors of war very close to their hearts and they lost a lot in this war, both physically and materially, and they want qualitative changes, er, they are slowly beginning to understand the connection between causes and consequences, and i hope that this connection will not be just as clearly structured in the head and politically because in reality everything matters what you do what you want whom you vote for and how you control p volodymyr, can internal politics or what is happening inside the state slow down our movement towards nato well, that is, here we are we want to receive an invitation from these countries at the washington summit regarding ukraine's accession to the north atlantic alliance. the alliance will tell us, well, the armed forces of the soviet union, the armed forces of the soviet union, we have no questions about rearmament, we rearmed you, we helped you, the most modern equipment, but

we have problems with corruption in our country. there is a reform in er, problems with reforms in tax filing, we have er, there are certain claims to other spheres of life, including personnel policy, who comes there, how are directors and other er appointed structures, can this internal component become the achilles' heel in our russia before nato, it has already become a vicious circle when we were all the time at the stage of the formula, and the doors of the alliance remain open to everyone, but no one could pass through these doors, we passed through these doors we have not yet entered the interior, but we are not on the threshold of what could happen. it can be very different . we definitely see that the alliance wants to have a mature

ally. we see that the situation in many spheres of internal ukrainian life is far away. from european standards and democratic approaches, we see that there are a lot of public accusations that are based on specific facts, the facts of journalists-narrators, but these people are still in office, we heard that as tata moev and other people are friends, but there is no reaction from the law enforcement system, later the judicial branch of government is happening and this is definitely pushing the allies away because they do not want to have a country that will heroically win and then create a huge problem for them. therefore, this is again a very correct question you asked

previous regarding ukrainian society, we will see how much it has changed after the victory, because how much we have all changed, how effective the state will be, volodymyr, there is another rather important question, how do the decisions of vzhynevsky themselves and the crowd affect the course of the russian-ukrainian war, why am i asking this, because today i am monitoring the russian public and i see how they are happy that ukraine did not receive specific terms when they will be ready to accept ukraine, i mean the north atlantic alliance, and they are very happy that, well, you see everything stays in his place and look there and we will reach berlin with our tanks, how will this affect what russia is doing, how it is doing and whether we should wait for an escalation in the event that russia realizes that nato missiles and anti-aircraft guns can stand on the border with the russian federation in

the sumy, kharkiv, donetsk, luhansk regions. well, i think that the russian general who was destroyed today and dozens of his colleagues who were sent to hell by the armed forces of ukraine and there will be many more to come you know the situation is actually quite difficult, because no matter what we say, no matter what we plan from the beginning, we have to win, uh, victory is still a long way off and it will not be instantaneous today, it is possible that vilnius has become a cold shower for some, but we must remember that in order for us they defeated us we must have something to win and the whole state must be united around this goal, unfortunately this did not happen in the economic sense because we still do not have our own production we do not have our own production i don't know for what issues reasons is it just sabotage is it corruption or is it treason that it didn’t happen specifically but we have to have something to defeat the enemies but for now

we just have to buy only western aid which is wrong and whatever russia’s reaction is today they can be angry tomorrow it will be huge again talk, but our goal is that this war can be ended only on the territory of russia , we must clearly give ourselves a clear account of this , it will never end in a different way, they will not end at the border of 91, only a defeated russia means a calm one or two at best, three generations of ukrainians in the ukrainian state, it is clear that now the format of ukraine's communication with nato is moving to a higher level, because the concept of the ukraine-nato council is completely different from a commission, some bodies, by the way, and this has been going on for so long, i even remembered how much in 1997 or in 1998, when this ukraine nato commission started working

later, because the bucharest commission was the same. on the other hand, we look at the result. you are a person who worked for quite a long time and worked in the diplomatic service at the ministry of foreign affairs, then you worked as the minister of infrastructure, that is , you had a lot of work related to communication with western partners , including the north atlantic alliance. what is the most important thing to sum up these are the 25 years that have passed. what has constantly prevented ukraine from joining nato, if russia is in uh, or has it always interfered internally, some useful

idiots are also a question of uh, yanukovych with his there also with these uh-uh decisions and the fact that he took away from the military doctrine the clause about the uh -threat from russia, that is, they used it , that is, what exactly prevented us from getting there earlier , why are we waiting so long for it? well, i just started my work after the completion of the university at the ministry of foreign affairs in the nato department and this is my first day at work , it was the last day of the work of borisovanovich tarasyuk, at that time a very progressive and western minister, you know very well what we remember now what is our path to nato which really started with kharkiv in 1997 about a special partnership when the budapest commission was created, and in 2008 we were actually invited to become a member, but we thoughtlessly wasted this time

, on the one hand, this is a huge fault of the ukrainian elite, who could not put their interests the state over the individual, on the other hand, it is the fault and the society, which did not always clearly foresee the future, remember the sociological polls regarding nato accessions in the previous decades, now we have a luxurious figure more than 80% of support, and then what battles were fought, so they were often politically provoked and directed at russia, but society did not fully understand and unfortunately, we must become sincere to every citizen that if we want to have an effective state in public administration , it is also necessary here, at least elementary basic to understand and cannot be an equivalent substitute for vilnius rostov or the eu

, eurasia, or nato, the udcb, and many ukrainians were often speculated and confused by this, so i really hope that after so many years of wasted time, we will now do our best chat forward and that the next nato summit in washington in 2024 will give us membership in this organization for sure . as you know, i was appointed as the first minister. the next day they were recruited and asked. and where are the reforms in 24 hours? so i have to ask each of them at the end of our program . vladimir, i will ask you about what conditions we will consider that nato itself

vilnius is a success for us because, judging by this rhetoric, judging by the comments that i hear from representatives of the authorities , well, first of all, from the supreme commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine, there is so far such a clear understanding that we got what we could get, we could get but we did not receive any more, but there is no such clear or clear signal from society that we are moving , maybe we are moving so fast, but we are still moving to nato and it has already been decided and nato has decided that russia is not in this war will win, well, at least these two components are quite important for society, well, first of all, look at the document itself , it is very clear that the future of ukraine is in nato and two thirds of this document is dedicated to ukraine, that is, clearly the future of nato around ukraine with ukraine, there is no doubt about it, it depends on

political will if the president of ukraine will form a quality team around him that will give him quality advice, not in the style of a douchebag or a madman, as it should be done by specialists who firstly have experience and secondly strategic vision then everything will be okay if we continue to have a method of recruiting personnel in the bazaar, well, sorry, then we will have such a situation throughout the country. that's all that can be said about this. there will be no miracle here , it's not some kind of fairy tale there fairytale russia, someone there likes to shoot a series, then you have to work from morning to evening, they talk about work and work, how do we do in the armed forces of ukraine thank you, mr. volodymyr, for the conversation it was volodymyr omelyan, the former minister of infrastructure, and now a military man friends of the armed forces of ukraine. we worked live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our social networks. for those who are currently watching us on youtube and facebook, please

like this video and subscribe to our pages . well, you can become a sponsor of our youtube channel. by following the qr code, you will find all the detailed information on how to join our respectable sponsor club, any help will be helpful to us both for the development of new projects and for those projects that there are, in addition, you can join the espresso tv website, the most up-to-date information from ukraine in the world and the front chronicle, everything is on our espresso tv website. well, next we have on the air a political expert, people's deputy of ukraine of the sixth convocation, volodymyr tsibulko , volodymyr. i congratulate you and wish you good health let's start with the first day of the nato summit in vilnius, because many statements

made it clear that the hopes of the ukrainian side to get a clear definition of the date or at least an official invitation from the north atlantic alliance failed so far, i understand that they will definitely not talk about it tomorrow, because tomorrow there will be a meeting of the ukraine nato council, what do you say about the results of the first day and the results we have, is this enough for us to move forward with the north atlantic alliance well, in fact, the alliance , let's say bankova tested the alliance for shakiness , the alliance was steadfast because there are internal rules and for the sake of ukraine, internal rules that are supported by more than 30 countries

, no one will change this first, second, eh in recent weeks, the ukrainian state system has been caught up in a very large number of scandals in order for, well, let's say this , a civilized event took some counter-steps, and these scandals were , well, of such an unfortunate plan, because there were, uh, the embezzlement of the budget of defense through the ministry of defense, there were absolutely strange purchases of fuel at wholesale prices twice as high as retail prices, there was an attack on the mayor of rivne, which basically shows that democracy begins with local self-government, well, in europe at least yes. and after similar attacks, there was a funny story

about the detonation of a suspect in, let’s say, in the courtroom, which led to the death, and this is also a very example of a story. it is very similar to someone hiding the ends of in fact, they are not trying to investigate and establish who is really guilty. and behind these scandals , zelensky suddenly realizes that some phenomenal result is needed. by nato countries because it is first of all politics military union and political harmony are very important here. well, let us remind you what nato secretary general jens stoltenberg said