[000:00:00;00] they either correctly stated absolutely or to bribe or in other corrupt way to leave the territory of ukraine well, yes friends for this and so to the responsibility well here is a-a and it seems to me that after all those people who er left the territory of ukraine er without committing no crime, no criminal offense, and still returning to ukraine, eh, but, well, maybe they are in some way, after all , there are some, uh, in society, there are some moral eh claims against them. well, i think that they will simply bear political responsibility, no we even talk about moral responsibility we understand that those who cross the border, for example, as far as i heard a ball there, yes, there are certain or bribes or illegally, they may not have a mark about crossing the border , for example there .

and then the question arises. they will not be asked the question of how you left the country, for example. well , well, i will say a person . this employee did not carry a vase at the border or he did not put a mark on it, you understand, in our country the presumption of innocence actually works absolutely. that is why these issues are within the limits of the current legislation, almost the current constitution, they are quite ambiguous. well, to put it mildly , that is why i am saying that if a person deliberately commits a violation or an administrative offense or the criminal code, and there are these compounds there and there, yes, then it is absolutely logical that upon returning to him, the state representative

will start asking questions, well, excuse me, well collision is a hole in the legislation, let's hear the thoughts on this matter gennadiya dubova, candidate of legal sciences , and oleksandr pavlichenko, executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union, they join our broadcast, congratulations mr. gennadiy, well , how about the candidate of legal sciences, of course , first of all, the question anyway , we do not campaign. border in let's say bypassing the current legislation already during the full-scale invasion of the russian federation. well, i tried to listen to mr. oleksiy and tried to remember when political scientists correctly spoke in full on legal issues . e the fact is that if we are talking about bribes, if we are talking about forging documents about the use of forged documents

, there is responsibility for this, respectively. but it will be quite difficult to prove today about all those who left the territory of ukraine there as a volunteer as a representative of sports, culture, and in many other cases, it will no longer be possible to apply legal responsibility to them due to the fact , again, that the law does not have retroactive effect except in cases where it cancels or mitigates responsibility, so any initiatives aimed at those who have already left the territory of ukraine and have not returned, they are doomed to failure at the second moment, i would like to tell a little about the system, the way to tell it a little . i think they are demonizing it unfairly that the system is the way - it's just a register. that is, it is administered by ukrtransbezpeka and all the information submitted by other subjects of law is entered there . in particular, we can talk about the ministry of youth and sports. and passenger transportation and in fact, if it is ukrtransbezpeka

receiving information in a legal manner about the need to enter the route into the system, it actually enters it, it cannot refuse and check every document that is submitted to it that is, for example, does the person have a driver's passport of the required category or is he really an outstanding sportsman, cultural figure, etc. , that is, today in essence we can talk about administrative responsibility for crossing the border outside the limits of the pass and, accordingly , responsibility for forging documents or, including, possible e- e composition of offenses related to evasion of mobilization but this will be done separately and it is not directly related to departure from us also oleksandr pavlichenko executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union for human rights p oleksandra how, please, do human rights defenders treat those who left in different ways, those who were conscripted but left in different ways, a-a, someone hiding somewhere under the seat, someone bypassing the system

, pretending to be a pseudo-volunteer in different ways, someone is a money changer, somewhere crossing the border a few kilometers from the checkpoint, actually, what about them , right now, what is the position of human rights defenders regarding such actions of such people, well, oleksandr, if you can you hear us, please, microphone because we see you, but we don't hear you, oh, there is a connection, yes, mr. oleksandr, the sensors, the video is gone, now the video is gone, let's take a moment , let's get to the topic of actually people who leave and are looking for this. different men are looking for different ways we will return in general, of course, the big problem is still the number of refugees who left the territory of ukraine, we talked literally in the previous broadcast about how we will return our

fellow citizens back, but let's talk now about although some of them do not want to return, we understand that life there is not easy for most of them. at least , what are the main problems faced by people who were forced to go abroad because of the war? first of all, can you name some of the main ones that reflect such a general picture, well, really, a whole series of problems. well, let's be honest. and those people who systematically planned to go abroad there, they studied a foreign language, did not prepare the foundations of the country where they planned to come, and it is already possible they found a job there or at least their name is familiar, well, that's one question, there is adaptation there, it will be easier and help will be faster, and the possibility of integration into society there will happen much faster, and during the war, after a full-scale attack by the russian federation, many people

were forced to be unprepared na na simply hmm save your lives and your children well, by the way, statistics say that well, in fact , there are almost 90% of women and children, that is , there are men of various ages, about 8% only left. so, we understand what is going on there women with children ended up at the border, it’s just that the women had how much time to leave and they can still do it, and they could leave only in the first two days there, almost for the first time they think what do you mean? the window is no longer to sit with us, the wife can work, well, now we have absolutely no problems with this, of course , it is more difficult for women abroad, moreover, there are mostly problems with documents with reissued ones, because

let's assume that there are a lot of people at the first stage moved to left ukraine with an internal passport without even having a foreign one, there are problems with registration there, we invest in health care institutions in education e there are actually many e issues yes our consular offices provide constant support according to there are a number of public projects that help there with from a legal point of view in terms of adaptation in a specific country, but, unfortunately, a complete and comprehensive let's say so state program that welcomes every person abroad, providing them with all the necessary accompanying services on it's a great pity, it's not because of such a number , it's connected with such a number , well, this is post-majeure, let 's call a spade a spade.

case if something else were to happen and we didn't prepare for a lot of things, we weren't ready for more than that. in a year and a half, the situation has transformed very well. we understand that many countries already limit the possibility of free accommodation and free public transportation transport on reduces payments to forced migrants, that is why it actually becomes much harder for them to live even there , let's say a year ago, if you take, well, at least it's definitely not easier because of that, it's the need for support from the state side of the state in order to make it as easy as possible for them during the war life to make it more comfortable and more understandable, well, including uh , to improve communication with ukraine so that as soon as the situation becomes safe, they

could most comfortably return to ukraine and knowing where to return it is very important about this, we need to have houses, according to the retraining system, to have jobs, well, this is a huge, huge complex of issues that ukraine already needs to be solved further, yes. and oleksandr pavlichenko, the executive director of the ukrainian helsinki union, returned to us. about human rights, oleksandr, after all, i will finish you off with this question. how do human rights defenders treat those who cross the border of ukraine illegally in various ways and are conscripted? because in my opinion, they at least frame those who have such a right and they make it difficult for them to live and leave, please , human rights defenders are primarily not law enforcement agencies . and the question you ask is more about prosecution. rather, it is the plane of moral

and ethical responsibility in the human rights environment. by the way , this topic of male evaders was not investigated and was not presented as some separate factor that affects the problematic situation with overcoming the consequences war in ukraine , so i can't say that there is any clear vision regarding what are the categories of these men or how to treat them and what assessment should be given to them by law enforcement and the right to protect organizations, because this question honestly was not an object examination and research. moreover, the categories of those who leave are quite different, that is, indeed , those who go to an open violation, those who are, let's say, in the border zone bordering on this violation, there is a rather large

category, even this is what we directly had a case when persons had the right and had to leave due to various circumstances, but they were not allowed to do so . a student of, for example, a foreign university cannot leave, in particular because these barriers are getting stronger and the requirements are getting stronger. there is no need to risk it, but continue to continue your opinion, because i interrupted you, please speak, i absolutely agree with you that each case is completely individual and here there is a question of uh, individual legal responsibility for, in the event that

an offense was committed, whether administrative or criminal, and uh- well, of course, first of all, it creates a negative image for our country abroad. but at the same time, we are talking about the fact that those who are not ready and do not want to fight and try to evade in any way from e- is to do this, it is necessary to be called up and let's say to serve for the benefit of the armed forces, it's not, let's say, it weakens the ukrainian army because those who are not ready to serve and would not serve, they would not strengthen it, that's why this motivation is here or anti-motivation with such a clear focus, let's say, disappear, leave ukraine in any way to save yourself, this

is just such a factor, which is actually another page of this war. but i think that now is not even the time to evaluate this phenomenon after the war everything will be arranged in their places, and everyone will receive both respect and, accordingly, a different reaction for the position he took during this, this, this , acute phase of the full-scale invasion after 2022. oksana. there are certain categories. and who is not allowed to go abroad now, and there is this barrier . alexander, do you have such information? by the way, starting this year, even this permit procedure for going abroad, which

could be issued even in the past 2022, has been significantly limited. year through the cabinet of ministers, the secretariat of the cabinet of ministers or through the ministry of foreign affairs to those who traveled officially to participate , as you say, in various events, it could be sports, artistic, cultural, some scientific or other events that took place abroad and representatives er, due to the appropriate procedure , due to the execution of these letters, those who went to the state border service of ukraine were accordingly assigned and they could go abroad, now this situation has become tougher somewhere from february to march and accordingly, the number of those who go abroad and are conscripted, this number has significantly decreased, and accordingly , additional restrictions have been established so

that such a population of conscription age , conscripted, does not go abroad. let's say that even in to such a regime, what are the other restrictions , of course, this is a clear factor is the age of the person and the fact that he falls under the category of , let's say, the draft age and can be, and immediately becomes a vigilant object when crossing border er, which er, other er, exist today restrictions well, of course, these are the exposed facts , er, the use of the system of the path, about what today was discussed, er, that fake documents are used, when certificates are submitted , about the composition of the family, about the need

to accompany, er, about, er, departure to er, a short period of time. by the way, i think that it would be important for you to shoot such a short report directly in the city of the border crossing and see how many drivers you are now showing, for example, the line from the crossing with passenger cars. e this e-e appears in e-e in this volyn region crossing the border and uh, respectively, who are the drivers of these cars, the majority are still men who travel with a humanitarian mission and volunteer missions, and they should have the opportunity to make these trips , bringing to ukraine, respectively, humanitarian aid and aid that works at the front and

accordingly , the same cars are being transported, in which a lot is needed , which are actually consumables at the front , and all this is carried out with the help of these flows, which should also not be limited and let's say that they are completely stopped, this is also completely unjustified in this case, and voluntary help will be significantly reduced, so here i need to establish stricter control, as they say, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and the balance must be achieved in good health, mr. gennadiy and mr. oleksandr said that at the beginning of the year, additional restrictions were established regarding the departure of conscripts , in particular, men, but, apparently , responsibility also settled at the same time

, correctly, for violations of these norms, in any way now there is responsibility for violations, you can name again what threatens those who, er, who leave illegally, well, look beyond that, for the very fact of leaving , there is no responsibility in itself, there is no responsibility for crossing the border outside the border crossing points, separate responsibility for the forgery of documents knowingly using reporting a false document for the provision of illegal benefits well , they have such a plan of the composition of offenses that increased responsibility, this is not how they tried to increase it, there were draft laws, including regarding the so-called non-return to the territory of ukraine, it has been revoked for today, today there is another draft law regarding the addition of an article to the criminal code in the new edition , respectively, if i am not mistaken, 332 directly two regarding also crossing the border, in fact, you are an illegal way, that is, today

the responsibility is not increased and in connection because of this, today the state is fighting the phenomenon as normatively as it is administratively, and in this sense there is a problem because the struggle of administrators assumes that the criteria for who can leave are not clearly defined formulated, that is, conditionally, which athlete can go, which cannot, which cultural figure can, or the representative of show business, which no , it is determined in fact in manual mode according to civil servants , they are significantly prohibited , respectively, these have been expanded. they took off the train and wanted those documents that do not give the right to cross the border, he went to the car checkpoint and they let him in. actually, formally, his documents are there about the sole custody of a minor child

in principle and by order, we were all foreseen by the father, that is, today we are already talking about the fact that sometimes they artificially reduce this flow due to a certain meticulous examination of these documents directly by an employee of the border service. clear criteria of who can and who cannot, and accordingly so that everyone understands that the legal way is to cross the border only with a certain specific list of documents on specific grounds and accordingly, to artificially reduce it is quite a wrong way, as you said above, it can lead to the fact that the one who really needs someone, and this , accordingly, is in the interests of the state of ukraine, he will not be able to cross the border, mr. oleksiy, yes , just literally a short, short addition to the words of mr. hennadiy for dividing his position is of course basic and i will continue that yes, he noted that now there is more

admin, administrative, yes , regulatory regulation, and yes, that’s how it is, because we perfectly understand that the demand is for evasion of mobilization and, for now, attempts to cross the border as a result creates such a corrupt proposal yes, here is something that has not been said yet, for a good example, regarding what mr. gennady said, they removed a person from the train on he then left, crossed the border on the road , he is just talking about uh, maybe he is talking about deliberate work of some law enforcement officers. maybe, let's say. yes , in the same cases, i am now public among the military commissars. yes, i think that the border guards should also check such cases. the state bureau of investigation deals with the investigation. i think

that we will definitely find such cases there. well, therefore, this is an aspect of increasing such a threat of corruption and possibly artificially creating problems when crossing borders. also, i think there is a place before moving on to the topic of our refugees, how we will return them to the country we talked about military personnel, about conscripts , but i would like to specifically talk about military personnel, yes, that is, now the law on social protection, er , provides that they now have the right to leave. permission from the command, that’s right. what do you think? well, it’s been almost a year and a half of the war, the war is already going on, and many of the servicemen have not seen their families already there. just go there for two weeks, for example, you will see your family and come back and how to control that they will return. this is an extremely difficult question. i

think that the answer is actually hmm well, no one, neither the legislator nor the of the expert environment, everyone will have their own option to say their own position, of course, on the contrary, i speak frankly about softening the conditions, after all , i will cross the border even for men, because how is it when i said absolutely correctly if a person is not wants to go to defend his country, he will do absolutely anything to avoid going there , yes, there are many options, not only is there an option to leave the territory of ukraine , there is also an option to go to the civil service , now it is very interesting story when they take there for 0.25. well, civil servants are, in principle, almost automatically issued with a badge. well, in fact, in society , we have to avoid them if a person does not want to fight them enough

. well, that's why i'm again in favor of relaxation, and i'm in favor of the possibility of such a vacation for our soldiers and i think that uh, they have such a uh, high moral bar that it will definitely not be necessary to control their return, gentlemen , your point has already started, now also hear the question itself, mr. oleksandr, what do you think, is it possible to somehow solve this issue here, and that's all after all, those who have already proven their work with their feats on the battlefield have proven that he will obviously not run away from his duty to defend the motherland , are these people and our defenders worth it ? we thank them for their progress and for the fact that we can communicate with you here in myrny in myrny for the time being in kyiv is it possible to somehow simplify their permission to travel abroad

, in particular to see their families, in fact establishes a complete ban on leaving for such persons , accordingly, some other way must be worked out the procedure that regulated this order of temporary departure abroad of persons who participated in the service, well, let's say they served in the ranks of the ss or in other e-e units that directly participated in hostilities and they have the right to e-leave, this is also one of the big questions now this vacation is for those who have been in the armed forces of ukraine for more than a year, e-e, in terrodefense in various units, and accordingly , they perform in fact the most difficult work in defense and e-e, during the offensive, when we

are now starting to liberate part of the territory and what can this process be, first of all, regulation, what should be some kind of vacation due to a certain period of stay in the combat zone in order for the person to be rehabilitated, but how to ensure the return so that the person returns from abroad again if he leaves here, the state has no mechanisms, the simplest mechanism that it uses is a total ban, because i don't think it's wrong. exactly the same question from him to you. well, if we are talking about the fact that an active military serviceman does not return to me from leave, well, at first glance , it seems that here it is possible to even talk about desertion, that is, the law provides for responsibility for not arriving at

the place of duty, the time is set here may take place eh but again yes and i agree that there is a lot to be regulated normatively and today we are in an active phase of hostilities and here the military is forced to these bureaucratic procedures, that is, even if normative regulation appears, it is not always implemented on time in practice, because there are indeed cases of my comrades in a military hospital there without heating above the knee, he lies there for three weeks, they do not give a certificate that he is wounded, because military units are operating again. they have the specific, well, let's say the workload for today, taking into account the offensive actions of the ukrainian army , to imagine that they will actually start giving vacations without problems and even abroad to administer all this as it is the book needs everything, well, for today, i think that it is quite difficult, but if you evaluate purely from the point of view of need, it is not necessary, i think it is definitely necessary, because it is really and possibly about certain treatment

, moments, even rest, and even more so if it is about something that people have not seen family for one and a half years, this must be done and done . it was necessary yesterday. thank you for your position. we understand that this is simply a necessary condition for the reconstruction of our country, because at least there will be a lack of lower hands . well, in general, it is necessary. well, with that number of refugees , it will be extremely difficult to make this reconstruction process successful. oleksiy, what are the main things besides security, let's give security this clear yes, we are talking about completion, first of all, yes, without the exception of security, what are the main ones, yes, in your thesis, do you have what, in particular, the state should focus on in order for people to a-a even compared to the countries where they are now example anyway, they compared and decided that they want to return home. well, first of all, let's say a few words, er, let's say

, yes, there is no fresh one, unfortunately, but it is there, let's say a year ago, six months ago, there are different sources, what is the essence of er in fact, now a lot of people of working age have left the territory of ukraine, and this well, in fact, this trend was still very active before the full-scale attack of the russian federation, that is, in principle, from the moment of the aggression there in the 14th year, and this is us it began to have a rather massive character, let's in order to be correct there are at least the latest figures announced by the center for economic research, let's state that according to the organization, today about four to five million forced migrants are abroad, of them of working age, this is approximately one and four millions will return home for sure, about a third, but