[000:00:00;00] to try ukraine and that's why he came out of the shadows almost two years ago, but he long ago nurtured these imperial ambitions. he denied the presence of russians in the conflict during the annexation of crimea and so on, but he controlled all these hostilities, you can see it, i can see it but in fact he had such a certain temptation to negotiate , certain leaders of western countries also wanted to be tempted by this in order to push ukraine to such negotiations. but i believe that putin will never be ready for negotiations until unless the russian armed forces are defeated. and then why do they keep saying that after the ukrainian offensive, the conditions for negotiations can be created, we hear this from many western politicians, the condition for russia

to withdraw its troops from ukraine, this should be a certain basis of the foundation for further talks , russia must recognize that it needs to withdraw its troops and also respect ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity , after that we can talk about the mechanisms for this, now russia is very far from such a status, they understand that now they are still talking about the annexation of ukrainian territory, they are talking about their desire to fight, they are continuing missile attacks on ukrainian cities, so i do not believe that russia is really interested in serious negotiations. they are only on conditions if their armed forces no longer have the strength to fight on the territory of ukraine i completely agree with you here, i also believe that russia has no desire for negotiations, i am trying to understand why the western

political community believes that if we look at what other people are saying, they are convinced that russia cannot be defeated, or if we defeat ukraine, then if we defeat russia, then ukraine will really pay a big price for it, but for example , it is about the fact that, for example, the west will not have enough means to continue supporting ukraine, i.e. there are various scenarios that can unfold that cause fears among certain representatives of the west. but i think that it is actually impossible to allow ukraine to control some part of ukraine but not all of ukraine. and for example, if we are talking about cessation of the war of fire and with a certain period of stability but again, i think that such opinions are based on a pessimistic analysis of relations between ukraine and russia, and very often when people made such assumptions or forecasts, they were wrong

, the ukrainian people are now not ready to accept that some part of ukraine will be taken away forever, at the moment they are absolutely not ready for this, it can be said that russia is simply trying to implement international law and requires other countries to recognize the possibility uh, territorial annexation as a new rule of law, i don't think that it will somehow be crowned with success, of course putin would like that if certain countries recognized the annexation, but every country that is in the european union and they also clearly stated that they do not support the annexation of russia, but they believe that this is a violation of the international order and it can threaten all countries, not only ukraine, so i think that they will never admit this, but the fact that the international criminal court is now looking for

putin actually makes it even more difficult to recognition by other countries thank you for this conversation kurt walker former special representative of the united states department of state former ambassador of the united states accepted we were in touch now our interlocutor is a famous lithuanian writer dissident human rights defender professor of yale university thomas good evening mr. vienna hello i can hear you. thank you. i want to talk to you

. in the background of this war, it is experiencing what lithuanian society experienced in the 90s , that is, on the one hand, it is the return of one's own identity, on the other hand, it is an attempt to somehow part with the imperial experience , and it is not always easy. societies, i mean from a civilizational cultural point of view. well, you are right, that is, apparently, ukraine is passing with some delay, that we passed 30 years ago, but unfortunately, in much

more difficult conditions, we had a short the war that led to the death of 14 people, you have a serious war , alas, this is a disturbing situation for everything, for me, it ’s a game. well, for society. she finds opportunities that she herself did not expect. well, i can say that we in lithuania and ukraine , generally speaking, go through a very similar historical path of neighboring centuries, you can start

from the 13th century, because our king mindolgos or mindaf maintained relations with danylo of galicia, then kiev for some time was included in the grand duchy of lithuania is one ukrainian dissident. as far as i know, he raised a toast to the occupiers, whom we do not remember. these were lithuanians, that is, they joined kyiv to the grand duchy, but at the same time they behaved decently and did not change anything, on the contrary , they were exposed to the influence of ukrainian society and- and that is why it is precisely the occupiers, if it is possible to remember the occupier well , then he remembers a lithuanian well, they were almost

imperceptible, then we had parallel national movements in the 19th century, and the ukrainian experience was desirable for us, for example the lithuanian poets of that time read and translated it, our shevchenkos read it, were interested in ivan franko and lesya the ukrainian, that was all, then it was the 18th century when we managed to build a state and the ukrainians managed to survive for 20 years . unfortunately, it did not work, but the demand was very similar to what's happening now , it's also similar, that's why we empathize with

ukrainians, very friendly, very brotherly feelings. i'm not even talking about linguistic things, i'm talking about internal culture . who should be perceived as part of one's own cultural heritage ? well, who doesn't you know all the drama of this situation of these judges , where

are they? знакомства с миколай came to ukraine as far as i know, these people in ukraine continue to be recognized as builders of national culture, although they were in e-e, in general, at the end of their lives, by soviet writers in lithuania. the odesovatization that hurts my father well, what can you do? i generally understand the position of lithuanian leaders in this regard, well , this is dramatic, this is difficult, these questions will probably be solved for tens if not hundreds of years

but we are coming to the observation of cultural independence, after all, it is based on what was done, what was done in the 14th century , and in the 17th, and in the 19th, and in the 20th, too, and by the way, in emigration, too, for us lithuanians are important for the migration of ukrainians, that's all. well, that's exactly what i had in mind. i know that in lithuania questions are being asked about the creative heritage of not only your father, but also yustyna samartsinkevich, osa and eduarda. and мы здесь вечество страоемся on the edge even now, to preserve such figures as, uh, the figure of mykola bazhan or pavlo tychyna in the ukrainian cultural pantheon, although they were soviet officials, ministers in the soviet governments, they wrote poems , soviet texts remained. and at the same time, they wrote full soviet texts here even now how strange is it between ukraine and yours, there are

certain differences perception of cultural er heritage well, it can be here the point is that we went er a little further and 30 years of dependence have already passed. who knows how you will view the soviet period of ukraine in 30 years? it is difficult to predict. this may be the case, but in any case, the ukrainian approach often seems to me to be the way it is now. it often seems more fruitful. you see that now, just like ukraine from the point of view of how linguistic from the point of view of culture is becoming more and more close and let's say that's why it looks like that, that is, the battle is the same as ukraine's language as lithuania

is a-a-a lithuanian language and it wasn't like that almost all these 30 years, but here again such people find a cultural problem, this disease is not perceived by many people who are not just used to speaking russian. people who, on the one hand, are supporters of independent ukraine, and on the other hand, they are russian writers. this is how borys khersonsky is, but here there are contradictions. i sometimes think that this may be a natural contradiction when it so to speak, the last mohicans in the old era. yes, apparently, it's like that in lithuania, everything is free, after all, it's a multilingual city , they also speak russian here, and by the way, if you speak russian, nobody is near you, it's almost nobody, don't look at you.

someone will look at such people not very much if you speak in polish, the same thing. well, since my childhood, i was a russian-speaking city. this is a lithuanian-speaking city , that is, the lithuanian language is heard much more often than russian, but there are russian writers , there is a russian theater about russian there were problems with the theater, but it was preserved. i hope it will be preserved. there is a pushkin museum, although pushkin was never in the great city , he was only his son, and according to the legend, he was baptized by hannibal. but , nevertheless, this museum has a place and

, in my opinion, it does not bring harm. well, that's the way it is, we have a russian-speaking culture, it occupies a marginal place, but it still has its place, and we also have a polish-speaking culture , which is also somewhat marginal, but it has its place, this concerns vilnius in the second in the cities in the provinces, the lithuanian language dominates much more fundamentally and it is much more noticeable there, well, in this sense , in the sense of toning, did we manage to carry out some kind of internal work that was quite serious already in soviet times. it seems to me that your russian theater is no longer called russian , it is called the old catherine, but it plays

in russian, with real subtitles. but it is natural that not only russians go to it, but also russians and poles. say, there are still plays by russian writers , and this is, in my opinion, the right approach to the matter . a well-known political expert and i decided to invite him to this russian theater and i must tell you that he was very upset by the invitation because the play that was in this theater was contemporary to russia and it did not correspond because of the image of modern russia that this man saw in moscow at all, that is, such plays were no longer staged in russia, and he

invited you with my invitation almost as a mockery, so again it turned out that it is impossible to invite a russian political observer into russian life, i don't know who kind of was this political observer. in russia, they are different, as i say , and then this question is more artistic than any other. corresponds to this, let's say to the old man but this question calls for a lesson for the actors in the end, in the end, in the audience but this is not the most serious question that can be invented, no, let's be serious , because this play did not exactly correspond to the image of russia

, that's why i didn't like it. i want to talk about another friend. i wanted to talk to my friend. by the way, it was a play. i don't remember the name now. i won't tell you about it . i remembered this episode. russians they don't show it on russian television, you understand. well, of course, there is a censor for this. well, in poplar, it hurts me, naturally, the russian political observer expected the same censorship as in russia, well, if he expected it, he didn't wait for it. этого тоже так это что сейчас русской программы, judging by everything , it also becomes a synonym of the word российский in his putin's understanding. well, it's not always like that.

including my old acquaintances, and i know for sure that there are russian people who do not support putin. about the ukrainian in four russian that we already see two societies with different i would say that the types of future tragedies are the ukrainian society - this is the society in which people now steal their bright ones lose their housing bombers of bombings and this society will have to come to its senses for a very long year, we can see the russian society aggravated if you say it to the majority, this is a society in which there is no understanding of reality , no empathy, full confidence that everything is happening as it should be happening and here it is two neighboring worlds alone the tragic second one who doesn't notice tragedies

, that's how it is, that's what happens in the majority of the majority of russian society, but i think and even insisted that not everyone has it, let it be a very insignificant minority, such a minority it is and for now it is still there, apparently, in my opinion, it is impossible to paint the wrong society with one color, i can say that i know that uh, in ukraine now, uh, there is a slight attack on the russian culture as it is now, i can't do anything here i can't advise ukrainians, but i can't help it. this is a people who will support aggression. this is a people who will support an unformed shameless attack. a people where people are dying, where children are dying, where buildings are being destroyed. well, let's say that in russia

, soldiers are also dying. the second account is what is being defended, and i cannot give any advice to ukrainians about the russian cult, this is their business, they should leave it in lithuania for some time, otherwise we, uh , condemn russia in a state of war, but we are not in it, and in there are several names in our relationship. well, in any case, i consider myself to be the right person to give some advice. we will express our opinion, and i cannot give any advice to ukrainians. they are right to relate to russian culture as they relate to me. i understand it. i don't even think about culture, i just think about how these two neighboring worlds will exist in the future . even after

the war , you will understand everything. for a crime, this became a preface to the example. now we see russia, which has no prerequisites for the repentance of such a large number of people . will also appear in russia, well, in russia , by the way , there was always a certain desire for repentance. i always remember the poet of sadness for his ego. anti-patriotic poems in the history of world

literature there are lines how sweetly one does not tire of the homeland and eagerly waits for its destruction, it was written by a russian man without any impurities, he had neither polish , jewish, nor ukrainian it was a problem, eh, russian. well, it was like that. if it was, then it could be. well, after the war, it’s for the property of a decade. it can be a century . well, it ’s for the property. for which the germans are undoubtedly to blame, it's a joke, the jews still found a common language with germany , not all, not everyone, i perfectly understand those

jews who did not find a common language with germany, but after 70 years after the world war , after 70 years after the holocaust, these e- well , the problems began to smooth out somehow it goes away gradually and thank god something like this is how it will be after this war , it is difficult for me to judge, i can’t prophesy anything, i won’t see it anymore, but i don’t see a reason why they can listen like this how did it happen to the germans and jews, well, to me it seems that relations between russians and ukrainians were ultimately more testy than relations between germans and jews , at least if we are talking about the world everest

. jew the jewish intelligentsia was a german intelligentsia, it was a part and a very important honor of the german intelligentsia, and no one thought that such a thing could happen. the outbreak of anti-semitism did not occur and led to the death of a very significant amount of the jewish people . it will not be forgotten, but nevertheless, with the passage of years, even this is somehow found ways to a certain reconciliation, slow , difficult, difficult, not in everyone, but we see it, for example, in germany we see israel, for example, from the fact that many phenomena still live in germany and live there

peacefully. well, that's how it is. what do you think? we literally have 5 minutes left. that's all. this is a war from the point of view of civilization. for russia, this is a war. for territory, or is it still a war for the destruction of that civilization that is not accepted by moscow as a civilization that can exist near it? well, this is a war against western civilization, and since ukraine chooses to choose western civilization, then it is a war against ukraine as people, as a state, as an ethnic group, in the end, that is, it already acquires a shade of what hitler preached in

relation to the jews. in my opinion, this is not how it can’t end . it can’t end in any way. it won’t end in any territorial compromise, which is sometimes talked about in ukraine . what was that? the respect of the aggressor is proof that aggression pays off, the peace must prove once and for all that aggression does not pay off, he proved it to hitler and he must prove it to putin . well, i really hope that the ukrainian people will succeed in this . this mm causes the strongest admiration and

the strongest empathy for the city that lithuania helps ukraine materially, helps financially, helps with instructors, in my opinion , even some volunteers, and that practically every lithuanian supports it is the ukrainian case. this is the case of the world civilization of the aggressor. it is necessary to close the road once and for all. thank you for this conversation. it is quite important. it seems to me that it is important for understanding the situation here in ukraine.

with us thank you thank you for your words we must of course always remember that this process that we talked about with tomos veslavych is really a process that began with the restoration of independence lithuania in the distant 80s of the 20th century and even then the reaction of the soviet empire demonstrated how cruel and how ambitious the view of those who continued to believe that other peoples have no right to freedom and that the existence of the russian empire is some kind of highest civilizational value for the sake of which one can kill, bury, rape, all that we now know about the russian state and army , however, as we can see, the example of an additional example, the example of other countries, the baltics shows that the russian empire can be defeated, and most importantly that

you can distance yourself from her and talk about her already as a past that cannot hinder your free breathing, i sincerely thank you for being with me on this broadcast. on the espresso channel we are used to saying that we need a technological advantage over the enemy on the battlefield, because really technology compensates or even outweighs the amount that the enemy has. well , as an example, one side has more manpower, and the other has more long-range means more artillery that can crush this enemy force. in the trenches and in the attack, moreover, the own infantry at this time is safe and ready for further combat operations. such asymmetric approaches are also in other directions