[000:00:00;00] wars with olga laziness tuesday thursday friday at 17:10 on espresso tv channel vitaly portnikov with you and we will discuss the main events of this week vitaly portnikov and top experts about the most striking events of the last seven days our guest will be a generator of companion forces former national security adviser to the president of the united states donald trump herbert master artist all current topics hot questions authoritative comments and forecasts in the project information marathon with

vitaly portnikov every sunday at 20:10 on espresso hello, this is freedom, the morning, the informational project of radio svoboda, top guests, every day, this is the shipping district of kherson, live inclusion, we are somewhere in the vicinity of bakhmut, we indicate the main points on weekdays at 9:00, we continue the saturday political club khrystyna yatskiv and vitaly portnikov of the kyiv-mohyla academy of political science, the scientific director of the democratic initiative fund, imelka puchkovycheva, i will be with us in a few minutes, we will talk precisely about south africa the republic of cannes about what

happened to vladimir putin i wanted to come there, but i didn’t come, and it’s also a very interesting story, in fact, especially the chronology of events. i have a number of questions about this separately. well, at first it was not clear, the only thing i will go and take part in is in what format, after all, the south african republic is a signatory of the rome statute, which means that the arrest warrant for putin should, in principle, be valid on the territory of this country, and for a long time the couple did not give the world any concrete understanding of what they will do in the event that sir loramafosa he even said that they were certain threats from the russian federation to all of eurasia in the event that putin is taken. and then it became known that putin will take part in the summit in august, but in video format, and right after that, the opposition position in the south african republic allegedly won, and they still ask the court to give permission for putin's arrest , that is , they formally fulfill their obligations under the rome statute. it's interesting .

tried to convince volodymyr putin in the fact that he should not come to the south african republic, he said about it, look at the president of the couple that they talk every day, that all these options he offered virtual participation in honor of the er regime er, when will sergey lavrov be, we are his nesburg, putin will not come, but then i would say that the african union went all in when it was made public the testimony of ramofosa because they showed putin that romaphosa is not a person who can rule the court and therefore who they said yes, in fact gramofos can give you guarantees, but you the prosecutor's courts cannot give guarantees if you are arrested, aromafosa will not be able to protect you, you are not surprised. what was the story? so, oleksia, garan is already with us. i congratulate oleksia. good day. well, we can say that we have made sure that the south african justice is somewhat different from the russian one, at least, or at least that the svirillers, the apostle decided to show this to er vladimir putin in er. we knew that justice is different . to

africa she works despite the fact that she is alone the party has been in power since 1994, but this is not the first example of court decisions being made contrary to government decisions, well, in particular, this is the matter of the fact that the government, for example, concluded a contract for the construction of a nuclear reactor in russia and in south africa. and then civil society appealed to the court. there were violations in the procedure and the socialists canceled this multibillion-dollar contract, so this is not the first such decision, but i would say that here not only the court, not only the judicial

system acted here many factors ie again south africa also has a strong civil society in which pro-ukrainian views are strong enough, unlike the government, and there is a free discussion in the press and a discussion of the syntenka, etc. and so on. well, the opposition is a democratic alliance. well, the position does not have a majority in the parliament and it will not be able to win in the upcoming elections . from the side of society, well

the position is certainly included here, the second ramaposa still understood that for him it is obvious that it will not be very profitable, because in fact, again, if we look at trade and economic relations, russia's share for south africa is very small , china's, and the russians are the main share - this is the west, the west, we know the thousand to south africa. well, i would say that for us, first of all, this is our victory, definitely. responded to the arrival of africans leaders led by armopos to ukraine, we had little hope, on the contrary, we said that it could play in favor of russia, uh, the gift of the apostle twice called the war a war, so that it was a little unexpected for the position of the couple, then he returned home to the couple, and in his statement the war was not mentioned, the conflict was mentioned, but we see the result. that is, it is the pressure of various factors of various factors

. is it possible after the victory to move on to the problems? yes, of course, for what we are saying. but yes, of course, i will talk about these problems, but i will emphasize once again whether there are victories, and even possibly contrary to some expectations, and yes, it still worked, and the fact that these letters were in kyiv and the fact that they had direct contact with zelensky and the fact that she was in front of the bombing, and it worked to a certain extent . various where

the problems of relations were discussed in the countries of the global south, there were many very experts directly from the countries of the global south. well, i am not a newcomer to this topic, after all, i have visited ten countries and it seemed to me that i basically understood the internal situation of all countries well enough, but before that i had been . in fact, the matter is much more complicated. that is, we have very

be realistic about what these countries can do, what they cannot do, and the problem really lies in their anti-westernism, which is the result of colonialism, is very strong in their minds, well, very strongly, yes. that is, it is part of their mentality and political culture, and it is because those ukrainians have a very strong feeling that russia is our uh, so we can't go anywhere without russia and the great russian culture . they have a lot strong anti-americanism yes, and that is why for them the concept of multipolarity, which russia and china defend and in their own interests, but the concept of multipolarity for the leaders of these countries. it is a natural concept, moreover, they constantly emphasize the neutrality of their countries that they cannot transgress through neutrality

. and that is why we have to understand it once again. difficult and long-term long-term work to change change this position, that is, it is not done from the jump, but once again there are victories, we see this victory in pairs, which took after all, sprouted enough, well, such a formal neutrality, but in reality , neutrality with a bias towards russia, the position was offended. will then

we formulated a more cunning position give us armored ah what is the name of the medical medcar so armored that we can. that is, it is not a weapon, yes, it is for rescuing the wounded, but they are armored. and what is interesting. well, we have already been told a little bit of behind-the-scenes stories so that the brazilian military said yes, we are ready, we are ready to provide it, but the office of the president lula blocked it. yes, but at least some, well, we see that some segments in the brazilian government are beginning to change their position, again, all these countries

when we talk about that continent then here you need to definitely understand brazil, this is important, and you need to listen carefully to what theses are saying and catch all the messages . but if we are talking about, for example, the countries of latin america and the caribbean and in the european union, then the chilean president actually expressed himself in eh in eh in order for the final declaration of the wording regarding the russian-ukrainian conflict to be more fair, harsh, for the aggressor to be called aggression, and war is war. can we hope that things will change there too? with accents shifts accents and in the discussion between countries on that continent may be born, or at least a slightly different attitude, a different vision of us and the russian federation is being born, or i dream so see everything see different countries have different positions, let's look at the final declaration that was adopted . i always encourage all of my students to watch the original . the media

, including western media, that is, look there on the eve of this, this is where the diplomatic struggle really took place, that is, the eu countries. they wanted to write down a tough resolution from russia, the aggressor is guilty of crimes, and so on. and so on. some of the latin american countries support it. yes, you mentioned chile. we can remember that argentina, for example, voted in the un for the exclusion of russia from the human affairs committee. at the un for

the territorial integrity of ukraine, by the way yes that is, the latin american continent is in solidarity on this issue, that is, and that is why, of course, we would like to see russia directly mentioned there, and uh, as the aggressor, as the culprit , it did not work, but let's look at it. i urge everyone to look at this declaration, paragraph 15, which is completely dedicated to ukraine, which means that it clearly says that this is a war against ukraine, the russians are called, but it says a war against ukraine, which destroyed the world economy and led to an increase in prices, and so further and so on, it says that these countries fully support the grain initiative and that these countries confirm their positions during the voting in the united nations organization, the resolutions are clearly stated there, these resolutions at the beginning of the aggression in march and the last resolution that was adopted in february on the territorial integrity of ukraine and the withdrawal of russian troops. in addition, this

paragraph states that a just peace must be established on the basis of the principle of sovereignty that of territorial integrity and so on that is, in principle, it corresponds to our position, so yes, we did not manage to be directly mentioned there, but if the war against ukraine is condemned, we all know who started this war, that is, they see they could not be able to bring everything that was needed in this resolution, but in general i think that it is a matter of fact that it is. we know how

journalists like to submit to journalists sensation is needed. well, not journalists like, uh, mr. portnikov, or uh, ms. khrystyna, who are very serious, who don’t chase sensationalism, and those who need it, need justice. i’m very fair, yes. and those who just chase sensationalism in order to have headlines and so on. and that’s where it all goes. ukraine lost to the eu is not in the center of attention . is

the art of the possible we cannot expect that, for example, the countries of the global south will join the economic sanctions against russia, well, singapore has joined. yes, the economy there is strong, we can expect that african countries will join, or latin american countries for which the economy is weak. well, but boda and ot, look at one of the factors that affects the position in brazil - it is the dependence on the purchase of good simple goods, so we cannot count on the fact that brazil will join the economic sanctions against russia, but maybe it will diversify and let's go let's look at the result, if before the war 60% of fertilizer exports were from russia, now this figure has dropped to 23%, they have really diversified, that is, now a large part comes from canada. well, they buy the rest in russia because it's cheap. here's a simple answer. it's cheap, but changes are happening, so once again, the bottom line is that we'll have a

lot. well, again, let's realistically expect what we can achieve, what we can't achieve. if these countries, if a large part of african countries are so authoritarian, do they violate human rights? can we to expect from them that they will condemn russia for human rights violations in ukraine, well, probably not in the un by condemning human rights violations by russia, they collect a majority for the territorial integrity of ukraine anyway, they collected a request, for example, such a large country as the democratic republic of the congo, and here are other countries that will vote for the territorial integrity of ukraine, for example, there is kenya, onegyeria, e-e, indonesia e- e. but when it comes to issues of human rights , they, therefore, obviously, again, get things

there are things we can achieve and things we cannot we can reach but there is a forward movement and i will even know here even the important voice of some small countries, so the crimean platform is so now from latin america, well, only two small countries have joined this guatemala this belize, they officially joined the crimean platform and costa rica, as if they are a sins. would be what these little countries

but it gives us the opportunity to say that now in the crimean platform has countries from all continents, so when they say that there are priority countries, it is definitely correct and we have limited resources, we almost have to concentrate on priority countries, but the voice of even small countries is important. they have their own voice, and that's why when we are here, for example, i think he is very eloquent, yes, and the country, but to what extent it is important for us to say that the crimean platform is now supported on all continents, by the way, at the beginning, we mentioned brazil here we also need to understand that brazil seeks to present itself as a regional regional leader, that it will protect the interests of the flying countries at all forums and so on, but this is what the brazilian experts told us, that the other latin american countries feel very strongly about this, they do not want to recognize this strategy, the agreement of positions among themselves, which is a big question, so that is, they do not want

to give this right to brazil , that brazil will speak for everyone. symbolic foreign policy things that may not have any important pragmatic meaning, but it is important for him to say what kind of initiative we have and how we are promoting it, he needs it for his activity. thank you oleksiy garan, professor of political science at the kyiv mohyla academy, scientific director of the kuchev democratic initiative foundation. we continue our international conversation with the following experts

. and serhii labaziuk people's deputy of ukraine member of the verkhovna rada of ukraine committee on agrarian and land policy greetings so let's start with the situation with the so -called grain agreement, it ceased to exist, but the president of turkey and its transfer says that he will take action to act that he would say that he will say that he will say. we need to look for other ways to help poor countries but the rescue continues to hope that he will convince putin ms. yevgenia, why is there such optimism on the part of the turkish president? is this feigned optimism? i don't think it's optimism. i think it's a desire to a great extent and public pressure on putin when he talks about what i'm sure my dear friend and colleague president putin wants to continue the grain agreement. this is part of turkish diplomacy. these are the messages that are sent in advance

. turkey will lead these negotiations with russia in any case, because oda is beneficial to turkey itself, it is beneficial as erdogan's diplomatic success, which must be preserved, it is economically beneficial because turkey is among the top three countries to which grain is shipped , it is largely exported and processed, but it goes to turkey.

it is still risky because no one wants an open confrontation with russia, so i think that closed and open negotiations will be held at different levels in order to use the diplomatic and economic power of turkey to force russia to at least partially return to the agreement, uh, regarding the actual exchange of statements between the ministries of defense of the russian federation and our country , i would just like to remind you that on july 19, the ministry of defense of the russian federation announced that all courts, regardless of the flag, that directly will be translated into ukrainian the partisans of the north on july 20 will be considered by russia as involved in a military conflict. the ministry of defense of our country basically makes exactly the same statement. it only says that all ships that follow in russian territory or in the temporarily occupied territory and those ports also cannot be provided with security. sorry for the tautology

. they carry it the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation is already commenting on the situation when they have just felt the force and they immediately take a step back, but it does not make it any easier for us. sergey, what prospects do we have for exporting everything that is already maturing and gathering in the ukrainian fields in july, august, in the end, in fact, the situation became difficult not only after the conclusion of the agreement this time and about some events that russia is talking about today . and you just said some other reasons they made it up, but they dragged everything out as of today well, we really understand that the black sea will not work now, i think that today everyone should get involved here, not only turkey, which agrees that those who are interested, both politically and economically , if we talk in numbers, the processing of agricultural products in turkey during the blockade of the black sea or the so-called operation of the grain

corridor increased by 38-40%. and this, in principle , is connected exclusively with the fact that they received more agricultural products from ukraine, where they really started the transit of it, including processing, for us today, in principle, is already a usual situation of manipulation of russia. that is why both agricultural producers and traders were preparing for similar measures and increasing the possibility of exporting and transporting along the danube, after all, and logistically and with the help of additional transshipment capacities, today it is also done on the border with the european union, although, unfortunately, we have for the time being the extension, as well as our fellow neighbors , the poles, romanians, of the ban on

exporting agricultural products to their country, but the transit continues and we literally in the last six months put into operation at least 10 additional sites for transshipment of agricultural products, and this will also make it possible, in principle, to export some volume of our products, which is already today . adult a on the domestic market in ukraine fell and this was due to two reasons, the first is the continuation of the blockade of the black sea, and we know that the belgorod-dniester bridge was hit by missiles, and these two news, in principle, somehow provoked more price pressure on the domestic market, this is a bad trend because our agricultural producers need to sell their products to get revenue so that they can continue their work on

the land, and this is the purchase of mineral fertilizers , palomastelnik materials and so on but we should not stop and i think that today on the diplomatic front there should be active work on unblocking the black sea. please tell me, ms. evgenia, in principle, when the president of turkey says that the event should go to the demands of vladimir putin to restore the black sea grain initiative, it is great, while realizing that the event in fact, all these conditions put forward by vladimir putin have been fulfilled

and repeatedly damaged physically, it is impossible to do, there remains only the creation of conditions for the division of the bank to join swift is possible for the daughter of this bank, but the west did not give up on this either, the letter of secretary general antonio butieri was the subject of the letter about vladimir putin, so in principle, russia had nothing to demand from the west, is there not a certain cunning in this that rdagan wants to shift responsibility for the final breakdown of the black sea grain initiative to western countries in the event that vladimir putin will not agree to any concessions in this matter can be looked at this way or you can look at it differently that this is a bluff in front of putin in order to show that erdoğan is allegedly playing on the side of russia and protects the interests of russia before the event by voicing all these whims of putin on the russian side and therefore russia should agree to a return to the grain agreement and stop the bombing and shelling of odesa and the ports of southern ukraine, this is again a feature of turkish diplomacy when everyone thinks that

turkey is playing a little and a little on his side on the side of an enemy or a competitor, and thanks to this, turkey maintains such a balance at the beginning of the war, trying to pass between all parties and remain a partner for all at the same time. to be honest, i do not think that turkey would be against if, for example, ros agricultural bank joined swift. moreover, turkey itself does not join the sanctions and cooperates economically with russia in every way, but on the other hand, we hear the same stories from turkey at first about the work of the grain agreement as absolutely correct . only officially this one the agreement has stopped working now, in fact, the grain corridors have been blocked since november 22