[000:00:00;00] an interview of our colleague lesya vakulyuk from lekandarsk with the legendary polish politician , the father of polish economic reform, professor lesyk baltserowicz, let's watch it together today we have a special guest in our house, in the presence of leschich baltserowicz, the author of the polish reforms of the 90s, a famous economist, and we are very happy to welcome mr. baltserowicz to our etheri ah so i sincerely congratulate you today we have makes us look at the past we say what we have done in 30 years could we be a stronger country now or

have we really wasted many chances necks chances were they only conditional or could we be, for example, in nato like poland thank you in every country from the perspective you can see that more could have been done in the same way in poland , especially during the last years nichkovska in the 1989s and in the 1990s but let's remember that ukraine is a living democracy, where the government is limited, the civil society that is in ukraine, in my opinion, is very alive and powerful, and this is the basis for the protection of democracy

and reform forces, so that i can see democracy and the economy in real time equally important for development, in your opinion, for corruption or yes, sir, there was capitalism, there is no democracy. this means that without the priority of private property, no democracy will survive. all these socialist countries are now cuba and north korea. and before that, we belonged to the soviet union, so all countries without capitalism are at the same time as dictatorships, they are closed and based on the intimidation of their citizens, therefore the protection of democracy also covers the protection of private property and the market

economy. at the same time, its protection of supremacy rights, this means the independence of the courts and the independence of the prosecutor's office. freedom of the mass media and independent civil society. a well-known swedish economist . he recalls that when he first came to kyiv back in the 90s, he was unpleasantly surprised by the lack of knowledge in the economy among the people who were responsible for the reforms. in it, who were responsible for reforms in those economies? well, actually, they were about everyone, because there was, for example , viktor pynzenyk, but there were not many of them and they did not have this power, or mr. so and that he also had a similar impression, i know that you consulted

the ukrainian government under kuchma, there was no permanent cooperation after 2014, after a certain time, for various reasons , including political ones, economic reforms began, and we can say that it was just a case, it should not have happened, but for some reason it happened in such a hobby as a young man in the 80s i created a team of other young reformers who worked on the most important problems of economic growth and stability without hope that it would be implemented ever, but it turned out that we were the only group that worked systematically, and when in poland in 1989 there was a political turning point, the first genre became democratized, the first democratic government

, and the german mazovia, he turned to me , and i was supposed to leave for great britain , but i stayed in poland and headed the economic policy, and as part of this radical stabilization, in 1989 poland had inflation at the level of 20-30% for a month of freedom in the economy, and even to a certain extent. this was the fate of the case. therefore, this does not show the character of the people folk vego, it happens that there is a group of people who get a chance, and it happens that there is a group of people who do not get a chance, there is potential, but it looks like you knew exactly what

to do every day since you got power , when you got such an opportunity, the main directions were clear or we had a real catastrophe in poland at the end of 1989, firstly, which established somewhere around 20-30% in a month, secondly, you were bankrupt relative to abroad. therefore, it was necessary to think about reducing the external debt, which is obvious to everyone who lives in socialism and him an environment that does not give chances for economic growth, that we need to move to a market economy based on private property, principles that, of course, needed detailing, thanks to the fact that i created a team in the 80s, we were able to do it quickly. if i did not have a team, i would not have agreed

b on proposals to lead the reforms that kuchma , for example, once said what country would you like to have, how do you tell me, yes, i can build for you, maybe a builder for the lordship , as a lordship, it is for himself, well, it is unspecified. there is a big difference when the first person of the country speaks about the fact that he does not know what kind of state should be built by the leadership in our country. well, let's try it. this is a personal factor. who heads the state is of great importance, and it is obvious which employees he chooses and in which

direction he leads the country . i know that you were responsible for the coordination of international aid for reforms under the coordination of the gasoline-fueled president poroshenko . as far as i know, you were responsible for the coordination of international aid for reforms. ukrainians believe that poroshenko was not the worst president in those 30 years, or was everything really that bad with the reforms? it is about the fact that there were not enough reforms until 2014. i am not sure that this is the biggest issue, but the worst thing to compare is if you take into account poland and ukraine, and from different reasons in poland before 2014 there were many more reforms that opened a freer market earlier in ukraine and the president over poroshenko

offered me to be an adviser and i was engaged in this for some time, in my opinion he was a reformer and he knew what needed to be done actually, since that time, it seems to me that reforms took place in ukraine rather than ukraine! decreased and why is there such a negative assessment from the voters of ukraine, who was a reformer with few exceptions , most people do not understand why

radical treatment is needed, they understand well that you need to go to the doctor, but when the economy is sick, fewer people understand, but what needs to be done will never succeed to win the support of 90% in a democracy, but when there are 50-60 percent, then a lot can be done, and i conducted radical reforms from 1989 to the end of 1991 at the latest there was a lot of criticism, but i won the elections in 1997, so it is possible to make people aware that there should be communication, for example, when i was in the government and before and after that i regularly

appeared in the media. i am now too the most popular weekly in poland is also doing this, it is very important to show people the true choice , to say that we have such and such a situation and we have such and such options, for example , inflation . then the situation will improve, although it is not always possible to present and show people a choice in communication. it is very important in politics. i wrote that in the new states very often, where there was no

strong political tradition or political culture , the newly elected oligarchs always get power. and so it happened and so it happened in russia and so it happened in ukraine, although with other nuances , why did it not happen in poland to say about it 100% has programs a high level of competition because the oligarchs can receive fortunes and keep them when there is no strong competition and part of this competition was the opening to the world radical liberalization of the economy or competition with imports it limited the growth

of the fortunes of individual private entrepreneurs of ukraine that way the competition was opened to the world the eu itself taras ukraine yushka now ukraine is already a candidate to the eu and last year we were full of optimism that by october we would fulfill all seven points on the candidates of the conditions for the candidate of aneminourok to travel the year we continued only two and we understand that there are still thousands of different changes in regional legislation, in fact, it is not a good pace, why is it like this or can it be different or can the plague be different here, hope , consistency and perseverance are important, firstly and secondly, no one can forget that ukraine

is attacking, russia is the champion now defense. i think that the world newspapers also write about it, for example, the icon of cities, that ukraine is worthy of admiration and respect for the fact that the ukrainian government, despite the fact that it gives a month of russian aggression, is simultaneously carrying out some reforms, and this is noticed in the world of the opposition of ukraine authorities and society in the face of russia's aggression and the courage of ukraine in the world , this deserves respect. actually, can ukraine continue to attack, or can ukraine in such a case hope for some concessions at home ? the concessions concerned the main cases. and what are the main cases

in the political system? it is about the rule of law, regardless of the prosecutor's office. democracy , that is, competition, democratic competition in politics and in the economy as the broadest level. freedom, which is powerfully protected thanks to the high level of freedom, competition exists and works in the state, and this is the base that needs to be protected, understanding, and it is in the interests of ukraine. to solve problems in this or lack of them, ah, and here is the second lesson, for the second year we have continued the regime without customs export from ukraine to the eu, for example, grain, and it has already caused fear among european agrarians, its ukrainian, and in yuzh e pivova ot fear such a court of rolnikov udieuropean and own now they have a lot in

ukraine now in ukraine even talks about the fact that no one wants us in the eu. is ukraine really like that? as i already said, ukraine's position in the face of russian aggression aroused great respect for it. not only politicians, but also the society of the society, cannot interpret certain movements of some governments as a sign of disengagement from ukraine. i believe that ukraine is very powerful and has strengthened its position in

the west. ukraine, ukraine's membership of the european union , is a large country, an active society that has proven its effectiveness in the face of aggression. this will also strengthen the eu. conferences on the topic of post-war reconstruction of ukraine, and if you watched it, what are your impressions of the time that show how much weight the west , led by the united states, really gives to ukraine, because the situation in ukraine does not only concern ukraine itself. this is generally the position of democracy, the rule of law the world understood. in my opinion, we see

a life of exceptions. from the very strong support of ukraine, that there will be some grandiose marshall plan. but is it only about finances, so this is here? the second world war partly depends on mr. warsaw, but during the family from the liberalization of the economy, no country as large as ukraine can develop thanks to foreign funds, because the most important funds from the outside are private investment, direct foreign investment, and how they will be formed will be an important indicator of the trust of people who they are looking carefully at

the country, that's right. we can't say for sure right now. how long the war will last, and it's becoming obvious that it's a war of destruction, and putin can actually do it three more times. putin hopes that he can simply outlast all the current politicians from the west and wait for someone like trump when that aid weakens. and in fact , in this way, he will be able to win and be able to win wars in these ways. more stable, so that we become less dependent on western aid already today yushterras, while

the grass is war, i know that for the short term , the military victory of ukraine is extremely important, i hoped that he would come across here on a combat-capable army and a mobilized society, it depends on ukraine in an important way, but it affects the position of the west, help who was able to help himself or his own soldiers of reforms, or should it be left for the post-war period after the victory, as usual, but the world media note that despite the war, the ukrainian authorities are implementing some very important economic reforms i can cite for iconography in the world writes that

ukraine has finished the program with the international monetary fund that continues the reforms that increased transparency regarding private property ukraine shows that despite the war , it is important to her . what should be the first steps after the end of the war? we hope for billions of dollars in aid. the assumption of internal political struggle will be high trust thanks to the participation of competent

people international institution but of course with the participation of representatives of ukraine taras voronka conifers so now in the conditions of the war we are observing a decrease in reforms of decentralization decentralization actually such reverse processes we have such reverse processes it is clear why is this actually the case with regard to the management of finances after the war or whether local communities at the level of self-government should be involved centralization can be normal for the distribution of funds in the local area as a whole government which called self-government is a very important part of democracy and market economy. initially, we carried out not

only radical economic reforms but also greatly strengthened the role of local self-governments in ukraine, a lot needs to be done, and in connection with that, if self-government is strengthened , they will have a lot to say about the use of domestic funds, they will also be interested in attracting foreign investment, in the end, this will come to a halt. and in conclusion , i want to ask you how you see the victory of ukraine in that war, ukrainian, of course, in that soldier or inventus of sufficient military competence, you, i had to determine the main thing is that this is the situation when putin will not

have the means to continue the aggression, it is necessary remember that his position in russia itself is not very strong and ukraine's position in the fight against russian aggression is different . about the perspective, but i can say that what ukraine is doing in the face of russian aggression, as i already said, it causes great respect in the west and these reforms that are taking place and their continuation - this is ukraine's road towards the european union, these

are the basic conditions. thank you very much for conversation thank you i greet the listeners and viewers. thank you. we were with legischih bakserovych, an outstanding polish economist, the author of the polish miracle and reforms of the 90s. well, that's actually the end of our interview. thank you for your attention. pain can become an obstacle not with my knees because of knee pain. try dolgit cream. dolgit cream relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves joint mobility. you can also walk. dolgit is the only yellow cream for joint pain. and for muscle spasms, dolgit antisum pills to relax muscles and threads. this was me before.

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communication with the espresso team click sponsor and become a part of the community with a ukrainian point of view. greetings, dear viewers, it's time to learn about the most important things that are happening in ukraine and the world, and i will start this issue with the situation at the front. in this direction will be able to turn the tide of the situation in general , that is why it seeks to withdraw our forces from other areas, deputy minister of defense hanna malyar noted, the ukrainian military is fighting back enemy attacks on the kupyan lyman and swativ directions, the number of shelling increased on the southern flank of bakhmut, our