[000:00:00;00] if we have f16, we will not depend on russian blackmail when exporting ukrainian grain to world markets , so the sooner we get them, the sooner we will be able to launch a new protected and effective corridor that will function without any obstacles and millions of tons of ukrainian grain will enter the world market stabilizing lowering prices, helping people to avoid hunger and, most importantly, depriving russia of the levers of global blackmail , dmytro

kuleba, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, conducted an interview in connection with equatorial guinea today we have a special guest in our house as a guest of the lighter bulsyrowych, the author of the polish reforms of the 90s, a famous economist, and we are very happy to welcome mr. butsarewicz to our broadcast, ah, so, uh, i sincerely congratulate you , today we have makes us look into the past , we say what have we done in 30 years? could we now be a stronger country of chances? were those chances? were they only conditional?

could we be, for example, in nato like poland ? thank you. itself and in poland, especially during the last years in the 1989s and 1990s, but we remember that ukraine is a living democracy where the government is limited, and civil society , which in my opinion is very alive and powerful in ukraine, is the basis for the protection of democracy as well as the reformist forces , at least more recently actually, democracy and the economy are equally important for development, in your opinion, for

conversations or so panel of capitalism there is no democracy this means that without the priority of private property, no democracy will survive all these socialist countries now this is cuba, north korea, and before that we belonged to the soviet union, so all countries without capitalism are at the same time dictatorships , dictators, they are closed and based on intimidation of their citizens, so the protection of democracy also covers the protection of private property and the market economy. at the same time , the protection of the rule of law means the independence of judges and the independence of the prosecutor's office freedom of the mass media and independent civil society and well-known swedish economists

remembers that when he first came to kyiv in in the 90s, i was unpleasantly surprised by the lack of knowledge in the economy among the people who were responsible for the reforms in it. who were responsible for the reforms in those economies? well, actually, they were about everyone, because there was, for example , viktor pynzenyk, but there were not many of them and they did not have this the government, actually, mr. meow, yes, and did you also have a similar impression? i know that you consulted the ukrainian government under kuchma, so there was no permanent cooperation . after 2014, contacts

began after a certain time for various reasons, including political ones. economic reforms, and you can say that it was just a case, it should not have happened, but for some reason it happened. as a young man in the 80s, i created a team of other young reformers who worked on the most important problems of economic growth and stability. without hope that it will be put into practice someday, but it turned out that we were the only group that worked systematically and when in poland in 1989 there was a political turning point, the first genre became democratized, the first democratic government but the deutsch of mazowiecki, he turned to me, and i was supposed to leave for great britain, but i stayed in poland and headed the economic policy, and as part of this

, the radical stabilization of stabilization in 1989, inflation at the level of 20-30% per month, to a certain extent. it was the fate of the case. therefore, it does not show the character of the people, and when it happens that there is a group of people who get a chance, and it happens that there is a group of people who do not get a chance, but in every society there is potential , but it looks like you knew what exactly you had to do every day since we got power, when we got that opportunity, the main directions were clear because we had

a real disaster in poland at the end of 1989 . secondly, you were bankrupt relatively abroad . that is why it was necessary to think about reducing the external debt. it is obvious to everyone who lives in socialism and its environment. come, it does not give chances for economic growth. what is necessary is to move to a market-based economy. on private property, the foundations, which of course needed detailing, thanks to the fact that i created a team in the 80s, we were able to do it quickly. if i did not have a team, i would not agree to proposals to lead reforms , for example, i once said what country would you like to have like you

if you tell me, i can build it for you, you can build it for the lordship, as a lordship, how is it for yourself, well, actually, there is a big difference when the first person of the country talks about the fact that he does not know what kind of state he should build, he had a builder for the lordship, this the personal factor of who heads the state is of great importance, and it is obvious which employees he chooses and in which direction he leads the country, to give you a hundred percent thanks to president poroshenko. as far as i know , you were responsible for the coordination of international aid for reforms under the coordination of as far as i know, you were responsible for the coordination

of international aid reforms and actually now , according to the results of polls, ukrainians believe that poroshenko was not the worst president in those 30 years, or in fact everything was so bad with the reforms, it is about what was not enough reforms until 2014, i'm not sure that this is the biggest issue, but the worst is that if you compare poland and ukraine, for various reasons , there were many more reforms in poland before 2014 that opened a freer market earlier in ukraine, and the president over poroshenko offered me to be advisor and i was engaged in this for a certain time, he was, in my opinion, a reformer and he knew what needed to be done since that time , it seems to me that reforms took place in ukraine

faster in ukraine between ukraine and poland decreased and why is there such a thing but why such a thing a negative assessment from the voters of ukraine if in ukraine regarding poroshenko, who was a reformer, and in fact in every country with few exceptions, the majority of people do not understand why radical treatment is needed , people are born smart, and why did it start? go to the doctor, but when the economy is sick , fewer people understand, but

you need to do it, you will never be able to get the support of 90% in a democracy, but when there is 50-60%, then a lot can be done, and i conducted radical there was a lot of criticism of the reforms from 1989 to the end of 1991, but i won the 1997 elections , so it is possible to do it here, it is important to convey to people that there should be communication . for example, when i was in the government and before and after that, i regularly spoke in media i am now also making it popular weekly in poland it is very important to show people the true choice to say that we have such and such a situation and

we have such and such economic options if we undertake the treatment of those diseases , then the situation will improve, although not always immediately present, show people a choice in communication is very important in politics, the french philosopher raymond aron already wrote that in the new states very often, where there was no strong political tradition or political culture , the new-born oligarchs always get power

in russia and this is what happened in ukraine, albeit with other nuances , why did it not happen in poland to say about it 100% that we implemented it was the basis has programs a high level of competition because the oligarchs can to get wealth and keep it when there is no strong competition, and part of this competition was opening to the world , radical liberalization of the economy, or competition with imports, this limited the growth of the fortunes of individual private entrepreneurs, and ukraine is also going that way , the eu has opened up to the world, competition is growing, taras ukraine!

and last year we were full of optimism that by october we would fulfill all seven points on the candidates, i qualified them for the candidate and not the minourok became more expensive, but last year we continued only two and we understand what else thousands of different changes in the regional legislation is actually not a good pace, why is it like this or can it be different, consistency and perseverance are important here, first of all, and secondly , no one can forget that ukraine is attacking russia, so now there is a defense, i think the world newspapers too a column of places write about it, for example, that ukraine is worthy of admiration and respect for the fact that the ukrainian government, despite the fact that it gives a month to russian aggression, simultaneously carries out some

reforms and this is noticed in the world. in my opinion , the opposition of ukraine's government and society in the face of russia's aggression and the courage of ukraine in the world , this deserves respect. the political system is about the rule of law , regardless of the prosecutor's office, democracy, i.e. , competition, democracy, competition, legal competition in politics and in the economy as the broadest level of freedom, which is powerfully

interrupted by a high level of freedom competition exists and works in the state and this is the base that needs to be protected, understanding and it is in the interests of ukraine that the problems in this or their lack are to be eliminated and here is the second lesson , for the second year we have an extended regime without customs exports from ukraine to the eu, for example, grain and he has already caused fear among the european agrarians and yuzh e beer is such a fear. the jester of the destroyers of the european and their own interests. now they are very much in ukraine, even talking about the fact that no one wants their own

. is it really so, as i already said, the position of ukraine before russian aggression caused great respect for her peace not only politicians oles society he exerts the influence of democracy on politics certain movements of some governments cannot be interpreted as a sign of detachment from ukraine very powerful strengthened its position in the west ukraine membership of ukraine in the european union is a large country an active society that has proven its effectiveness in the conditions of aggression , it will also be a strengthening of the eu, but three conferences have already been held on the topic of post-war

reconstruction of ukraine, and if you are in favor what were your impressions? this is also a conference of the time. if the western countries, led by the united states, really gave weight to ukraine, it seems that ukraine does not concern only ukraine itself. this is generally the position of democracy, the rule of law in the world. of strong support for ukraine, that there will be some grandiose

marshall plan. but is it only about finances ? why did the west move forward so quickly after the second world war depends partly on mr. warsaw, but i will continue liberalization to everyone economy, no country as large as ukraine can develop thanks to foreign funds, because the most important funds from the outside are private investment, direct foreign investment, and how they will be formed will be an important indicator of the trust of people who carefully look at the country. taras is sure to say how long the war will last and becoming obvious that this is a war of destruction and putin

is actually playing the game because it just might last longer. putin hopes that he can simply outlast all the current politicians from the west and wait. someone like trump when that aid weakens and actually in this way he can win and be able to win wars in this way and in fact whether in those conditions or in those conditions we can really do something to make the ukrainian economy more stable so that we become less dependent on western aid already today yushterras while the grass is war i know that for the short term the military victory of ukraine is extremely important, i hoped for whom he will come across a combat-ready army and a mobilized

society, it is important that it depends on ukraine , but it affects the position of the west, help who was he able to help himself or his own warriors of reform or should it be left for the post-war period after victory in the usual way, but the world media note that despite the war, the ukrainian government is implementing some very important economic reforms, i can quote for iconography in the world writes that ukraine has completed the program with the international monetary a fund that continues the reforms that increased transparency regarding private property would be on the other hand, and this

is the same time that despite the war it is important to her, what should be the first steps after the end of the war. we hope for billions of dollars in aid. who should dispose of these funds, the authorities of ukraine, or perhaps an international institution specially created for ukraine. it will be better if it is an international institution, then you will not be alone . suspicions of internal political struggle will be high. international institution but of course with the participation of representatives of ukraine , taras varumkah observes the soldiers differently, now in

the conditions of war we are observing a decrease of decentralization reforms, decentralization actually has such reverse processes, it is clear why this is the case with regard to the management of finances after the war, should local communities at the level of self-government be involved , centralization can be normal for the distribution of funds to the government, which is called self-government, is a very important part of democracy, also of a market economy. at first, we conducted not only radical economic reforms but also greatly strengthened the role of local self-governments in ukraine , much needs to be done in connection with

if self-government is strengthened, they will have a lot to say about the use of domestic funds, but they will also be interested in attracting foreign investment, well , in the end, this is on the line. and in conclusion, i want to ask you how you see the victory of ukraine in that war, ukrainian, of course, in the competence of lviv to determine the main thing is that this is the situation when putin will not have the means to continue aggression, it must be remembered that his position in russia itself is not very strong, and another is the position of ukraine in the fight against

russian aggression, the weaker the position will be putin is in everyone or in the end, ukraine is everything. ukraine is another eu country and in what perspective . of these reforms that are taking place and their continuation - this is ukraine's road towards the european union , these are the main conditions, so i see a woman, thank you very much for the conversation thank you greetings listeners and viewers , what's up thank you we were with us was legischih bakserovych , an outstanding polish economist, the author of polish the miracles and reforms

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