[000:00:00;00] than this is the minimum required for its arrangement, so what is the difference if you were a german academician or a french one, i thought well, really, you don’t have that kind of experience , you don’t know how it is done, but you have lived almost a large part of your life in the soviet union all your life and bred how much there two-thirds of the territory was empty, this time it was siberia and the far east, well, what is on the territory , what is the question? a different situation, i'm saying a different territory if we had one from the point of view of tradition, economically, from the point of view of geography, forest

-steppe, forest-steppe - this is a forest-steppe, it's not a forest, it's not a taiga . okay, let's imagine that you're a german academician, there's a rura basin, there were huge enterprises there, it's all over its history well, somehow they organized this territory, but people left there, but less , but still more remained there than believe me, there is a risk that there will be much less in kherson oblast than in ruri and donbas, well, about donbas i in general, i don’t know if something will happen to him. i really don’t know what it means to be good with him, then anyway, it’s important to understand when we have to talk about it with you now or after the end of the military service, now we’re talking about it and we ’re talking about what we have er, when we talk about the recovery of the economy of ukraine, we should not talk about the recovery of the economy of ukraine in general, we should talk about the recovery of the south, about the recovery of the territory

close to the borders with the aggressive neighbors of both of us, we should talk about the recovery of the western territories, we should to talk about the restoration of central ukraine, we have to talk about the restoration of metropolises, these are five completely different approaches for each of the segments of each of them, and we have to understand this, but today the academy and the department of economics, and i personally are trying to convey this to the authorities, because ukraine is a poor country and it will remain poor in five. in 10 years, well, realistically looking at all the things that are destroyed, well , no matter how we try to rebuild, we will remain a poor country in a poor country

, the population always gathers around the capital and we have five metropolises today, let's count lviv as a metropolis, although there is not a million there, maybe already, uh, no, lviv does not have a million, no, no, believe me, there is no place where more people left than here, uh, if donetsk was in normal condition, it would be the sixth metropolis but no matter what happens, the population will gather around these cities because there is a more developed labor market there because there is a housing market there because there are opportunities there it is necessary it is necessary it is necessary it remains even if it will be shelled i am absolutely convinced and kharkiv will pull out the kharkiv region, but i have great doubts about the sumy chernihiv region

, especially in the northern part, but kharkiv will pull out like kharkiv, he will pull out the entire region in some way, he will definitely lose. yes, yes, yes, but the rest as a technical center , a technological center, i had no doubts . well, i am ready to accept it. and if the ports are blocked, what will happen to odesa? it will remain a metropolis, no matter what. the account of which is not only the ports of odessa - it is odessa that concentrates the entire south on itself, the question is how much the south will be destroyed, how quickly we will be able to rebuild it , that's why i say that the south is separate, the west is separate, because there is an ecological capacity there, which, according to our colleagues, it has already been exhausted, there are certain reserves in lviv oblast and frankiv oblast for industrial construction, ecological reserves are meant for the rest

of the regions, there is nothing already. neither volyn nor bukovyna, transcarpathia. well, nothing is simple nothing in some way well, because there is an ecological capacity, what does it mean, you can explain why it is er water, it is free territories that are not under swamps, which are not under forests, not under mountains, well , there is not enough of that there, you can move some more to lviv oblast you can speak frankish, of course you can, but that's all, and that's why all our conversations are that we're going there , it's unknown, which seems to me very doubtful from the point of view of logistics, yes, because poland is close to the western borders, well, there are no questions about the russians. on the side next to romania, rockets are one thing, artillery is another, even i understand that, i agree with that, yes, there is no doubt about it. that is why it is not kharkiv, let's be frank

, but there is no place to transport there , so it seems to me. it has nothing to do with the military industry, but simply , well, in geography it is understood and so is the rest that we have to look at the central regions in a different way, it is possible to go there, after all, you can’t get artillery there , well, with missiles, with drones, with all kinds of things. well, you can. with the help of anti-aircraft defense, there is a chance to move there, well, in addition to consolidating and so on and so on and so on well, it still creates prospects that large areas in the east and south of the country will be industrialized, you can say that, definitely yes yes to what extent do people today understand this not very much no, not at all people are people, if only the government understood if people do not understand this and they

continue to live in deindustrialized regions we are faced with a serious problem of unemployment in small parts of the territory from there people are leaving today who are ready and able to work, the majority of older people will remain there. this is not about the burden of the state due to unemployment. what difference does it make to the state? a person lives simply , but maintaining a region in which there is a huge social burden and no working population is much more difficult than a distributed district, you know this the struggle with terminology is good, but central ukraine also obviously has some ecological capacity . it seems to me that it is very far from being exhausted, well

, at least this information that i receive from of our colleagues, there is a danger of hypertrophy of kyiv in a situation where kharkiv, odesa, i don't know how the dnipro, we also need to discuss this separately , they cannot develop intensively as industrial centers, they can only somehow maintain the intensity for a certain time, what will then be here in the capital of ukraine, it is definitely more difficult than it was e- eh, but you know it will be more difficult regardless of how kharkiv and dnipro and odesa will develop, it will be more difficult due to the fact that we already have a drop in the standard of living of the population . as you perfectly understand, we will have and in the future, the fall and even after the recovery begins, the question of when it will begin, uh, even after this immediately , well, you know, such a rapid outbreak, tomorrow you will be lucky, the same will not happen, so people will concentrate in kyiv more and more . that is, in fact, this is the moscow model

of the state latin american american is worse why is it better why is there no government like that crazy well there is no government but the economic situation itself is so similar yes no no we we still we won’t be we won’t be able to implement the russian model even if we would like to in our country there aren't that many natural resources, i'm not talking about that i'm talking about the hypertrophy of a specific city, it will be true, which cities can in this situation think about the influx of the population of kyiv-lviv, first of all, only all metropolitan cities and kharkiv and odesa and dnipro kharkiv and odesa and dnipro yes and vinnytsia is the center, the capacity is still small, the housing capacity is still small, so that the city can concentrate a lot of population

, it is necessary for housing to be above all from vinnytsia. investments, how much people are willing to invest in what kind of light, i am simply madly surprised by the fact that the cost of housing in kyiv is increasing in the primary market, in the secondary market , i would understand the increase in the cost of rent. in the house it is not known what and what with your investments, a person , as a rule, in the conditions of the post-soviet state and in general the latin american economy, which you have already mentioned with such pleasure today and tomorrow never lives well, you know there is a large number of students, the situation has changed, but they invest in housing

because, well, firstly, victory has grown, and secondly , they believe that after the war there will be housing available. this will be a very serious financial resource of your own, but do not think that people just had such a large amount of free money in a certain amount, some of you that they don't know where to put it, they invested it abroad if they had the opportunity . well, i'm asking you if there was a desire if people live here if for people if people people or a person to go abroad there is no problem, it is true, it is true to leave their husband, they want to live here, their husband cannot leave, they are buying a house because they moved from kharkiv to kyiv, by the way, what klitschko is saying now is that we have practically recovered the pre-war population. and i say that the number has not completely recovered, but it has recovered, but this does not mean that all kyivans returned, came here from kharkiv, from dnipro zaporizhzhia, from

melitopol, i don’t know, from kharkiv, from dnipro zaporizhzhia, yes, there is such a shuffling of the population, this is reality, this is not shuffling is movement and shuffling and shuffling of the population moves with the rise of the south to the center and there are no people, i am not a question for me , this is a question for you, why are people from lviv now because there are opportunities not only firstly, there is an opportunity secondly it is actually safer here in kyiv in uzhgorod than in uzhhorod no than in lviv it is possible lviv during this war believe me as a person who lives for two months uh live people how many kyiv 2 or three large

sizes in terms of number the plot was the same yes it seems to me that the people who live in lviv do not feel that way, they feel less even in the second, third, in the 25th generation , these people who came to lviv, in turn, can come to kyiv because kyiv can be better protected from a defensive point of view from uzhhorod it is clear that no one will go because there as far as i know nothing for the whole war has yet to be done we will hope as soon as it happens yes yes there is logic in this even in chernivtsi well there were one or two less with that yes of course there is still a problem you know what is in kyiv after all, there are a lot of new buildings that, even in the case of getting there, well, for some reason, they don’t add up like

houses of cards, that’s true, yes. and there , god forbid, it’s all old housing stock. yes, well, not for the most part. well, it’s a huge project, much more than here well, well, when you talk about the fact that these five clusters exist , to what extent are they being developed at the official level ? maybe i'm wrong maybe not five maybe four, maybe eight classes. i don't know, but we need to think about it and we need to discuss it. and i don't see this yet. we are starting conversations. there is a territorial community, there is a district, there is a region. but that's not what we need to talk about right now. we will not rebuild the economy, it is not known where we will be.

to rebuild the economy of mennska, i don’t know zolotonoshi cherkasy, they dared buchi, well , somehow it won’t be like that at all, and when we invite an investor here, we have to offer him something, and we need to offer different things if we invite an investor, let’s say on the north of sumy region or chernihiv region. i think that it is necessary to offer something to the investor so that he would come there. this could be an option for israel , maybe it could be an option for military settlements . she has to choose what she will do. i don't really remember that anyone in israel really wanted to invest in a peace agreement with egypt, of course there was

industry there, there were factories, there were jewish initiatives, but everyone understood that they they can lose everything, but less was invested there and the dutch heights were also invested, it was already uh and it was state policy well, i know that she can lose it all the truth in the state of israel was invested i apologize to the sinai peninsula now when we arrive in conditions shorter there are no vacationers there, this sinai peninsula, and you haven’t been there either. well, well, well, in any case, a vacationer who was in egypt, they definitely visited us, they look at us when they come to us, you don’t see the prices of israeli investments there, hotels can which was built during the time of israel, it does not exist now, issue them, yes i am not saying that a private investor will just come there, i mean a cock, but the state should encourage

a private investor to come there, it could be some kind of communications, it could be insurance against the risks of investing in these insurances it may be different options, different may. the state itself should go to such places, and not whether it is possible, this is also a topic for discussion, we are talking about it , let's think, let's gather, let's discuss, let's decide, because when we will drive out it will be late we must drive out and have a plan a b c d and i am absolutely convinced that we must have different plans for different territories in accordance with the final of the war also probably yes because the semi-final of the war can also be different there may be one line of conflict another state border with shelling state border without shelling if

such luck befalls us and we can agree that there will be blue fairy tales blue fairy tales yes and that there will be no army for 50 km russia a member of the security council well, what if there were no fairy tales there will not happen no will be a member of the un security council will be as long as it has nuclear weapons, well, the blind man said, let's see, ok, we will have this option, yes, you can't , yes, i can dream. you should continue to give a clear scientific option about what should be done from the various options for peaceful poland. if so, then yes, if they will stand at the border and we have to do something, that's another question. well, and so on. if there is putin, then putin's. if not putin, then not putin. well, i mean that what can be a peaceful border can not be a peaceful border in any situation, people who live there

to the 50-kilometer shelling zone, but this territory is controlled by the ukrainian state. it can develop one way or another . well, it has to, if people live there . it has to develop even more. if it is our territory, then it has to develop and encourage certain categories of people. okay, but encouraging people to live there is different. it will not develop, but this again creates not only economic i would say such interesting political ideological brands who lives there in israeli settlements that you have already mentioned israel on the west bank of the jordan river who i used to live when they took out the israeli one. settlements in the gas sector are ideologically motivated. you and i are people. if we went to live in israel, relatively speaking, we would most likely decide that we live in an internationally recognized territory, because the rules are true , because we will be guided not even by ideology, but by economic reasoning, because this is property, we are buying it, we are not billionaires , we are investing what we have, so we need

this apartment, a normal job, we will not be taken away if there are international agreements so that we are not paid any compensation later. and if you ideologically motivated person, if you look at the works and say god gave us that is why i say that now there are ideas that we have regarding the return of our fugitives from the war. i do not like the word refugees because refugees have a certain, clearly defined legal status of our fugitives war, what can we bring back to ukraine, we can use the israeli experience, we can’t there, the situation was completely different, the situation was completely different, that’s not the way people went to israel , so how can people go to the ground? europe and this is also by and large israel in the first twenty years of its existence, it is a nation with a great trauma of the holocaust, it fled from those countries with which it tied itself to israel, and ukrainians are in countries where they

feel safe, jews did not feel safe in these countries even after the war, this is true , that's why i mentioned it only to emphasize once again we cannot mechanically borrow anyone's experience well, it doesn't work out like that well, now i won't even talk about the return of people from abroad i'm talking about those people who can live in the territories of the conditional market and this is so even when we return people from abroad or from western ukraine, we have to ask them questions where do you want to return to mariupol or to kyiv. has anything been restored, practical restoration, i somewhere i was there three weeks ago. practically everything has already been rebuilt, and bucha irpin moshtyun is not at all, but these two, well, more or less people, think people will be psychological

, there is some kind of brake, yes. my grandmother, what knees is a kyivan who returned to kyiv after the during the world war, even after it, it seems to me that in the next four decades she was never in the area of ​​babi yar , they toured it because her sister died there with her baby. and here she lived in kyiv , and somehow all her other relatives went to they were not there in person and the first that's why i don't know, you can't compare the mentality of soviet people and modern people . when my grandmother returned to kyiv, she returned in 1944 because he was in the army from here, she and her two children lived in the apartment was rented

developed and she just lived in the entrance of her younger brother's apartment and hid from the police. but what if her neighbors let her wash and cook soup for the children . that's what we're talking about, that's why when we talk we have more people i'll tell people then they gave housing stock in the western regions were empty chernivtsi people with themselves didn't want to live here and not go there well conditional violation so that it's not in general writes my older case grandmother she left natasha the manager went to chernivtsi and there they offered apartments and everything , and she lived in chernivtsi, but there were not many such people, the majority of people returned to their previous places of residence, now i am not sure that this will be the case, we have to ask people when we talk about the reconstruction of the cities of the destroyed cities, we

we have to focus on that. and who wants to return there? i don't know if the people of mariupol will want to return to mariupol. seeing all this, i might want to live the pictures. maybe, but there is also a legal problem, so find out for yourself that you are a resident in mariupol, your house has been destroyed, in mariupol you have been vacated and there is some other housing stock built by a russian and in which you do not have er, this is just what is being solved legally , they decided to solve this with alfa bank there, just no, i don't see a problem here, the worse issue will be with crimea, people who left crimea to replace those who moved in, who will now be forced to leave again, other people, what to do with the same. as far as i understand , the housing stock of ukrainian citizens was nationalized. that's what i'm talking about. what

to do with it is another question, because there can it is one thing to come to an empty house that was built there by the russians, however, it is another matter to come to your house where people live now. okay stolen, i think that after the victory we will get a very old population there because the young people will most likely leave, the older people will stay because they have nowhere to go. they have a house here or an apartment or something else and they will stay, they will vote for the party of peace so that you do not doubt that we should hold elections there . well, by the way, many people think that we are there we will be able not to hold elections, that people will not have voting rights. i want to look at this. don't forget that the 25th year is how many thousands of years of the charter of freedom. yes, we are too, well, there are many who operate on ideas that there are baltic examples , passports, citizens' treaty, a transition

period, there may be a transition period maybe but i don't quite understand how to do it. how do you separate those people who sincerely support ukraine, who now live in the occupied territories , not all of them could leave. if you want to know my position in general against such an approach, as such it is a stalinist approach. have you been to occupied territories and your relatives, this immediately turns the country into a monster, because the baltic countries simply recovered in the 1940s and they did not separate anyone, even if you were the only one who came to latvia after the 1940s and did not have a passport and relatives like you and i. undergo notarization, we, er, we operate according to russian propaganda regulations, which say that latvians were given citizenship to the russians, they did not give it, this is not true , they gave citizenship to everyone who underwent neutralization until the 40th year. so who i passed the address and no one looked at it. of course, if you are latvian and did not have citizenship, you and your native language are latvian

. it is easier for you to pass this than if you are russian. it is clear, but the approach was to my passport by nationality, so i say that what are we we will have a lot of trouble in those territories, even in those territories that were occupied in the 22nd year, but i 'm just scared to think what we will have there , i repeat once again, in donbas it will be more difficult than in a direct way, and you don't think that we from the point from the point of view of people who don't look at us very well optimistic conversation about what i can do well let's shout yes glory to ukraine well glory no well maybe we need to find some kind of strategy to end our conversation optimistic strategy ukraine's victory is absolutely inevitable in this belief in what form because the ukrainian will survive as a state, this is a fact, yes, i absolutely agree with this, but you cannot name the time

of victory and borders, you can’t, i can’t, and the number of the population or the seat, for example, if we talk about the borders of 1991, then it is my dream now it is somewhere around 37 and a half million. it is too optimistic in 1991. yes, with crimea and donbas, my dream is for us to have 30 of these borders. 30 million. yes, this is the transformation of ukraine from a conditional poland to a conditional czechoslovakia. no, it is not so harsh in poland. 38 million ai-ai-ai 38 million more well, i have czechoslovakia, i didn’t even say slovakia . yes, i said what country can it be compared to poland, that is, it will be just another poland , only a poor one, and only a poor one, and god forbid that we

all be as motivated as the poles motivated national economy from state motivation, the war contributes to this state's motivation. the truth is, we have never had the kind of unity of society that we have today, maybe the poles were also motivated by the miracle on the donkey and what happened to them in 1939, they lost the state, then it is clear exactly what it is without again without a state, most likely. and luckily we haven't lost it yet. and i 've lost it. i hope that we won't lose it. and if we talk about optimism, you know. god grant us to preserve the degree of unity that we have

today to avoid splits, there will be a division of society, it's not scary, it's normal, we're not the same and there's nothing terrible about it, but to avoid a split, thanks for this conversation 2 p.m. in ukraine news time on the espresso tv channel greetings to all the viewers in the studio of iryna koval in the occupied crimea, there are plans again the ukrainian flag, a successful operation was carried out in the morning by our scouts with the support of the naval forces, they landed near the reindeer herder and the lighthouse there, the defenders engaged in combat with enemy units, the occupier was also killed and damaged the equipment of the invaders without loss of ukrainian fighters completed the tasks and left the territory