[000:00:00;00] no one, and the second thing is that in the country, which is worth it, i survived and was under the russian occupation for so long, of course, to some points , sensitivity is completely different, by the way, people say that they lived there very well . he therefore lived almost his entire life until the collapse of communism in poland in naples, and he later wrote that he had been in naples since the end of the second world war there in the early fifties and until the beginning and the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, he was isolated because the italian was a neapolitan political and cultural group with a main focus on the communist

left. i didn't want to communicate, he was an outcast for the people there for 40 years , they paid attention to him only in 1991, that's rivno, that's how you'll laugh, that's just starting to get into the middle of his peers i i practically remember, i almost cried, i try to explain to them what is soviet, what is communism, such a person was shot there by parasites and something else, and not for them , communism existed, it was exclusively the antonym of fascism , and it was absolutely impossible to explain it, i remember this shock, and i first i had a language barrier, and only over the years has i lived here, then i spent many years climbing up, how deep it is in the root and how differently it is arranged, some of them, optics and

everything else, and how alone you are with words образоваться разные вещи thank you kateryna margolts, artist, writer, painting teacher from venice, we were in touch we talked about memory problems, and now we will talk about the problem of investment with entrepreneurs, patron kostyantyn zhevago , we congratulate kostyantyn vitaly, greetings, good evening . you recently spoke about attracting er investments in ukraine when there will be post-war recovery and let's just be able to explain to us the position of how realistic it is to talk about investments in the ukrainian economy right now thank you, it's me in fact, it is an important question and it is not very simple, it is rather difficult because investments are important for the economy, they are important for our budget . today i heard the last report of the minister of finance marchenko, who said that it will be very difficult to even budget our budget according to the income of the next period of 2024, because my economy does not issue the amount of taxes that is necessary to have in ukraine in

order to even finance defense expenditures , well, that is, all defense expenditures of the armed forces of ukraine and we, in general, everything that our defense, if all that is needed is our security, that is why the work of the economy has definitely become the work of companies, and most importantly, their investment activity is very important for the economy and, above all, for the state as such, because these are jobs, these are taxes, and this is the financing of our defense - it is financing our future, god grant victory, as soon as possible and on our terms , therefore i want to say that financing investments in ukraine is very important , the government should pay as much attention to this as possible, unfortunately, today we do not have it and we have pressure on business, and a lot of business associations and we entrepreneurs are even creating registers of corrupt or er wrong illegal government officials, illegal er law enforcers , judges, we are the rest of everything. that is, all these questions

. when representatives of various large junior businesses say that there is such pressure on business how it is today because ukraine and ukrainian entrepreneurs did not have even during yanukovych's time and if we have such pressure well, if ukrainian foreign investors cannot conduct economic activities in ukraine in an appropriate manner, there is it is very difficult to indicate about investments in principle the very topic of investments during the war. yes, the topic is quite difficult because, well, if you are investors, you do not know what is the security for your investments, what should be a tool for you to believe in such a country, there are definitely several factors we are, first of all, the assurance of the state that the state behaves very civilized in accordance with business in ukraine , but this is not enough in our conditions directly , everything that was held at various conferences about the restoration of ukraine in lugano in london from russia, which will be held later in berlin. and in any other centuries of europe and even the united states , they all also say a lot about the fact that

the state guarantees foreign investments . the united states of america, switzerland, france, of course, these are all things that today are necessary for people to invest money in order to finish the projects initiated before the war by 2022 by february , but there, all these projects are needed in order to to further develop everything necessary for ukraine, for our economy, for the sphere of security, products, materials, which today we very much need in order to win the war , we can do all this only under two almost three conditions, when the state will look at it and create all the opportunities for business to work and i did not leave the country and did not finish financing anything because i am very big and criminally corrupt, generally illegal pressure on business and the second, of course, if we

are talking about foreigners, it is necessary that foreign the states, as they promised, gave us guarantees investments for all those investment funds that will go to ukraine and how much it can work at the moment are you still talking about the moment when the war will end , of course most of all we are saying that when the war ends but even today such mechanisms work, there are statistics and companies today, investments have fallen, they have fallen many times, dozens of times, but many things have fallen not only because you are all afraid to invest, including the fact that today unfortunately, ukraine as a state does not support investors' investments. it creates enormous pressure on public companies, not public companies. i mean, today we have consulting firms, which i ask have surveys of 500-700 heads of ukrainian companies with foreign investments with ukrainian investments. and all these company managers say that the pressure that the state today economically and from

the point of view of law enforcement agencies is causing or exerting on my ukrainian business is even many times greater, but sometimes it was more the worst times during the presidency of mr. yanukovych, i understand and see that definitely the main investments will come when security comes, when peace comes to our country exactly on our terms, how do we want to end this military conflict, we this war that was not provoked by us, that was caused by the aggressor but everything is fine, even waiting for when the war ends, god grant that it will be as soon as possible. we must pay attention to the economy, because without the economy , without investors, without investment projects, without the creation of jobs, there will be no taxes, there will be no taxes taxes is exactly what we need to finance all our expenses, there will be no victory victory in the form we want it in the form we will definitely get, in your text about the need for investments you ask the question how much does it take to hold

a luxurious conference in european capitals in order to attract this money about which ukrainian government officials said at the last conference on the restoration of ukraine, you say that you are afraid that the capital will not be enough. but this means that there is no need to hold such large conferences at all. i would like to say to vitaly that conferences should definitely be held, it is not necessary for them to be so luxurious, it is better to purchase additional funds for this, which are spent on this , to purchase something necessary for our security in the country or to purchase some things that society needs, especially in an unsecured vest, all conferences are necessary, but their should be conducted by competent people who will competently prove to professional investors that there were in fact almost a thousand respectable investors from all countries of the world in london, but if talking with them what conclusion did i reach approached not only me and in general all specialists, all specialists who understood

what was happening in london, they are all my investors and specialists who were involved in this. unfortunately, they noted that the level of professional training was very incompetent, we, all those people who represented ukraine, who represented the potential of ukraine from the point of view vision of reconstruction when the war is over . we need professionalism. we don't need the luxury of such conferences. we need competence, competence, and professionalism of the people who are engaged in this. i have a question. of an economic nature, which is very important. it seems to me that from the point of view of what is happening in the economy now, i mean how the products of ukrainian enterprises are exported because, you know, in the first months, i would say even the first year of the war, it was believed that there were alternative ways that were not much talked about officially but now it is being said in all mass media that is why it is no longer a secret - the danube ports are a given . do you remember that no one said anything about them at the beginning of the war, and in fact

, many products were exported and we as different industries, we are heavy industries in ukraine, and after that they began to use it, and from the end , economic producers, exporters, so suddenly it became an important topic for the media, and after that the danube ports also came under the attack of er russian er missiles, how critical is the drone is this route and to what extent it can be preserved and how critically important is it in general that our exported products are not, let's say, topics for large reports, all this is very important because for us the products that we produce in our for the country, be the products of the agricultural industry, be the products of heavy industries , be the iron ore products or the metal products of steel, which we produce as semi-finished products or final products and they must be

monetized . - this is an important producer of these high-quality products, and we get our added value by producing such products in this situation , it is very important to export, of course, the danube ports are not in fact, the best ports for exporting our products or options for exporting our products to world markets, they are very convenient for exporting honey products of our nearest countries which are also connected by the danube river and which are connected to the rhine, we can do this for the european joint european consumers, but it is very difficult to do for southeast asian consumers in the united states of america, it is very difficult to do in general for north american consumer countries, which were very important to us and all the time by the markets, today when we use the danube ports, it is a forced unfortunately, the situation is a forced measure for us and

it is expensive, it has increased the logistics costs very much, we really do not like ukrainian products and not for anyone of the ukrainian economy and budget because, as a rule, we pay all these costs to some kind of intermediaries or youth-logistics providers, which are romanian, which are hungarian, which are any, but not ukrainian. that is, we did not support our own workplaces, we need it, we support the workplaces of any others countries of the world, but not ukraine, therefore, for us, the most critical and the most important thing is actually the restoration of our model ports, the ports of odesa, which we have in south odesa, are black sea ports, and the rest of all the huge ports, which are actually large in size and on the scale of the whole world, you are large ports that processed tens of millions tons of our exports, giving our economy the opportunity to work freely, and therefore today it is very important that we start everything, do everything and start doing

everything so that our ports work as they do today, all the black sea ports so that if russian aircraft or russian missiles or the russian army attack our ports, firstly, we gave them age, and secondly, we gave them the understanding that if they do it in accordance with our expert products, we will do it in accordance with of their export products and so that they finally understand that these are things that are not needed . we cannot in any case, in any way, disturb us and we must leave the black sea as a sea of ​​free trade . the patron was on this air all the best and we will return to our conversation with you literally in a few minutes there will be my conversation with the famous ukrainian historian serhiy plakhi so please do not switch and wait for this important conversation this

is important for me at least dialogue success congratulations friends i congratulate you happy holiday to everyone and our interlocutors on today's broadcast , ukrainian and american historian, professor of the department of ukrainian history at harvard university serhii plakhtiy i congratulate you, mr. serhiy, and i also congratulate you on independence day thank you very much i congratulate you on the holiday i congratulate all the viewers and listeners on the holiday and you personally on the awarding of the taras shevchenko award - this is a very important marker for this award your award thank you i want to talk about historical memory and you know i have to admit

it of course yes, hehe, it sounds like a healer with stupid taste, but i will tell you that there were not many historical books that i read with such interest as the last school textbook on the history of russia, which was written by the former minister of culture of the russian federation medinsky and er, the rector of the moscow institute of international mutual waves because you know, when i read the books of historians of your book, i think that the gate of europe is such a beautiful philip , from such an analysis of ukrainian history, when i then read it in the textbooks of medina , it’s like looking at it for me. i don’t even i know how to compare it well, some comic from which i am trying to find answers to the question what is modern russia breathing modern russian elites how it distorts distorts ukrainian history i don't know if you have seen this book so this is what i saw and i actually didn’t read everything, but i paid attention, of course, to the last chapters and

the feeling on the one hand really how do you speak like a comic book, that is, god in the textbook makes the most of any approach , any idea, and this textbook is simply a great textbook of today’s russian and radical nationalism, fascism, imperialism, that is, the term can be any, but on the other hand, you understand that it is made from the point of view of influencing schoolchildren quite professionally, and that is, blatantly blatantly unprofessional , historical and uh, very very dangerous professionalism when it comes to such as the formed textbook and e for us for historians it is like putin's article from the 21st year on the one hand you want to laugh on the other hand

clearly for to laugh because it is because it and the documents that form or or crowds or or the hordes or battalions that came to ukraine can pass into the future, this is a very important question, you and i studied history in soviet schools, i don't know how much it can be said that these history courses really influenced a large number of people and preserved their ideas about history, which was then essentially destroyed by the collapse of the communists, how long do these dangerous narratives remain in people's heads? i mean long, precisely when the social order changes, because we always say that putin's russia can, its time of existence can run out end does this mean that the leaders of those people who will learn from these textbooks in russian schools have these narratives of aggressiveness and contempt for everything not russian imperialism?

will they remain even after this? of course they will remain uh, since the soviet generative actually remained for a very long period of time, that is, the so-called laminopad - this is the year 2013-2014. the soviet union presented it to exist in the 91st year, and the signs of the marko marker of soviet history remained, they remained much less or almost did not remain in western ukraine or the baltic region, where mobilization began, including this protest , during the anniversary of the young molotov-ribbentrop pact, but in a significant part of the soviet union, a significant part of ukraine, those continued for decades stereotypes certainly not only continue and they are supplanted not only not so much

to show that non-reactives are somehow scientifically or socially incapable but they are supplanted when other and other peoples appear and to my point of view i wrote about it the same lenin attack this, among other things, is also the moment when uh, in ukraine , they refused to live together in a world in which lenin is a hero and the victims of the holodomor mean the heroes of the victims and all this somewhere in one village on one square and they are celebrated at the same time that is, this is this historical schizophrenicism with ukraine finally came to an end and one of these monuments had to be torn down, it was a memorial glue. but again it happened in 2013-14 and in a large part of ukraine as a result of this decision of the verkhovna rada not as a result of a decision well, they will tell you that they actually tried to unite

ukraine with such a mix of historical holidays or historical memory, do you remember the appeals of ukrainian politicians who said let 's have different heroes in different regions, conventionally speaking, in the west there will be heroes in the center the fighters of the ukrainian rebel army and in the east will be the heroes, relatively speaking, stakhanov and artem, what a ridiculous attitude of the ukrainian civilization itself. to be honest, it doesn't work, of course, i remember it very well , but it was not an attempt to unify ukraine. it was an attempt to... collect votes in each of the regions saying in each region what what what there so somehow the historical thing happened historically liked and er here the question on the one hand reached the narrative and the continuation

of the existence of the soviet people on the other hand this the question is more serious and what should we do with the soviet heritage, the people who were interviewed in 14-15 years, uh, they are completely ukrainian-oriented , patriotic and so on, they said, well, they were able to take a place in donbas, take away the monument to lenin and what will remain there, there are no other monuments we formed the city of executioners ourselves in the 20s and 30s, and this is a question later than it simply means to show what it means. we are watching. did the fraudster give birth to the soviet i , no, i am infirm and built on blood, this is a question of our own consciousness.

what should we do with the long soviet period ? what should we do with the same violinist ? i can cite, for example, a story from north macedonia. i remember when i first came to north macedonia . after its declaration of independence , macedonian national heroes remained on its iconostasis. they were members of the union of communists and komsomol, but they fought for self-macedonian sovereignty as part of yugoslavia, then the next government tried to replace this historical narrative by referring to the hellenic heritage of alexander the great and his father, king philip, now i would say there is some search for new compromises between this communist period, that is supporters of macedonia's sovereignty and the pre-communist period when macedonia was an important part of hellenic civilization. they are looking for themselves, maybe we

need to look for ourselves in the east as well america does this. i come to some american city and there are people who are heroes of some political battles of the 19th and 20th centuries. american cities were also created , i apologize, not in the 12th century. this is not athens or rome or kyiv, but nevertheless in they have their own architectural image and their own image of whom they are proud of. i think that according to the number of settlements with the name of athens, america is in greece. that is, you are looking for such roots in the classics, but i completely agree with you that this is a search and what in our country very often looks like annoying, there are other words, of course. for this, on facebook and in the public space and so on

, there are elements , elements of this search . they were not dropped somewhere from above, that means on some kind of parachute, that is, parts, part of the same elite, the same sixties, they are the same soviet aquamen soviet, that is, it is a natural process of formation nations from dmytro's empire and a very difficult process of harmonizing historical harmonizing political harmonizing i.e. no no no we are not unique on the other side of each each of these posts of the persian nations has its own set

of problems there is its own set of let's say some positive er historical elements the so- called dys or a pass that can be used for this formation of a new idea, and ukrainians in this sense, we are blessed with a very, very good history, that is, there is something to refer to, from the fact that there are kyiv shrines to the fact that there is a very developed cossack narrative and i narrated struggle in the 20th century against any invaders of very different invaders, that is, in e here we have if we cannot use it , if we cannot come to an agreement through a better understanding of history, this means a better understanding of ourselves well, we will have no one to blame but ourselves we are not deprived stories well, here is very important. it seems to me that history

is distorted and hidden at the same time. because when i resort to some historical events that seem absolutely clear to me, because i thought that it was simply necessary to read and let's say so the soviet or bolshevik version of history, on the contrary, well, conventionally speaking, to change the signs, then i very often come across a situation when it turns out that simply the events were completely different, that it was not an event in which the conventional bad guys fought against the conventional good ones, and now we are asking for the good from the bad and vice versa and we will understand how it all actually happened and then it turns out that it did not happen, that it is all fiction, that it is all a myth , like the famous story with these heroes of panfilov, or the details of the famous feat of zoya gospoda-myanska, or like in history during the second world war, soviet propaganda always talked about the exploits of soviet pilots, they were completely heroic people, but they never reported that, in principle

, the pilots of the reich were much more effective and efficient than the pilots of the soviet union, and against this background of course, all this looks more or less heroic, but together with with these, more tragically, the price of each flight becomes much different than it was in the soviet hurricane, you can cite a huge number of such examples, but the very fact that we do not know the truth that we even invent for ourselves in fact, trying to assess the situation in some way. on the contrary, it seems to me that it is also very dangerous. this is the first time i have heard this from you about changing, on the contrary. these will somehow manifest and you will understand it, and this is also part of the existence in

the conditions of these ideological levels and the adoption of a certain on a certain side and relatively relatively to the text of the concrete example that you gave regarding uh-uh on planes, pilots and heroes filtrate if i do not remember from 40 to 50% of all losses of the soviet aviation were connected with the fact that with the mechanical malfunctions of the planes, in fact, from 40 to 50% of the losses. that is, this is exactly the reality that you cannot understand simply by changing plus plus to minus and minus to plus , if history is really very, very multifaceted and propaganda what how does it work , that is, it does not necessarily have to be absolutely, absolutely, a lie. it also happens that we take some aspect of a big problem and highlight it as

a marker as a characteristic of the whole problem and change it from a plus to a minus, well, you can understand that another aspect, but not a problem as a whole, and only the understanding of this story as a whole. i think it may be the truth that can challenge us. that is, this is the process, the process is much more complicated than the change of knowledge, another very important aspect that i always think about now, when it comes to testing the european integration of ukraine in the future, this is a historical memory that divides ukrainians from their neighbors to the west. well, we see that as soon as the slightest aggravation of polish-ukrainian relations appears. can you talk about anything, even about grain, the topic immediately arises. in volyn, an official or an intellectual immediately appears who says until you accept our negativity, you

will not get anywhere now, literally these days, if you go to zakarpattia oblast, you will see an absolutely amazing picture in the areas where hungarians live population, you will see billboards commemorating the trianon tragedy, so to speak, and in the areas where the ukrainian national lives, you will see the same billboards dedicated to the trianon, only it says that this is the celebration of the historical justice and this is happening literally in one ukrainian region during the war and it is of course quite serious for me. i would say anxiety because i just imagine what will begin when the real, you understand, not virtual, but real negotiations of ukraine regarding the accession to the european union begin, and i think there may be tools that made it possible to find a common denominator precisely in historical tools , the dialogue of scientists, joint history textbooks