[000:00:00;00] has a negative overall rating, i.e. there is a negative rating, positive confidence in zelenskyi prevails, because of that it is said that it will probably be popular support , you know, if there is a victory, there is a temptation, even if there is a victory, that every person will understand it as a victory. well, this is also an important moment, we we can understand victory as one thing, some people who will vote for certain politicians is quite another, absolutely yes i agree, by the way, sociology shows that ukrainians are perceived as absolutely victory, or do they have any nuances of course there are four four categories of people who imagine victory in different ways, the largest number of those who are the borders of the 91st year, then there is a victory, this

is a victory, we will come to the 91st year, this is a victory. we are tired, it is actually a terrible burden, war is a horror, god forbid that we should pass it on to anyone to experience existence and that's what scares me as a sociologist. well, if you can imagine that the war continues, we understand that it can continue for years as long as society is ready for such a life of constant mobilization , social hardship, rocket attacks, well, that's because we are waging a long war of extermination, in general , people are talking about it, the question is, are you ready for a long war, as the president says , it will be long, he and what they and what they are currently the fluid situation leads to the fact that at the moment the most supporters are ready for the idea that

it can be, i can withstand it for a year or two , the largest group. well, then there is a new last one. some say that they hope for victory as soon as possible, and this is actually an illusion, we people live because it is promised that the war will really be long. well, but ukrainians always believe in miracles. tell me what happened to the mood of a regional nature before the war . that after the 19th year, these differences began to fade away, it is also obvious that such factors are at least there in the main political problems what is happening now, you know i can i will start

from afar in 1994, when the ukrainian sociology was barely getting on its feet. the americans and i chose lviv donetsk as the object of research, and when we studied lviv donetsk , there were certainly differences of opinion . i don't know how we americans caught it in 1994. why did we choose those two regions? well, two regions of ukraine. so, in 1994 year and it was not exactly as you say, the differences were very big, but the differences were on the same level, i would say that this is more uh, hmm, value-wise, and there was a certain gap in values, but what happened , see in 2010, when we held in the fourth wave of the research, we saw that

the main identity in donetsk was a citizen of ukraine in donetsk in 2010 before the war, that is, that draft. well, the current was in the direction of a very slow blurring of differences between the ranks of the west of ukraine between , as gribchuk said, mykola, two ukraines, ukraine is not there is only one. there are two ukraines - these are two different peoples with different languages, different religions, cultures , and so on . to our surprise, the main identity of donetsk is that i feel like a citizen of ukraine, which disappeared in 2015 because there was a fifth wave, but in the 15th year we understand where donetsk was, in what situation, and there it came to the fore that i am my

identity of donetsk. i consider myself mainly a woman is a man, the primordial identities are obvious, look, so that he doesn’t answer political questions, understand that, they got out of the way. such identities are there and russian, of course. well, please , that is, what am i leading to? so that the process of erasing the differences between regions was, he was the starter he spent he left but he was and was like this in such a way about the ukrainian direction well, when the war came of course it changed and in the eye of the eye changes simply lead to very interesting things, we have never observed such a thing if you look at the results that are published every year institute of sociology, there was always a breakdown by

region and there were always differences in the 22nd year, there are no differences after the start of the war . excellent, those who suddenly hoped for somewhere disappeared , you understand, in the west they perceive the same as different things of interest, but this never happened, and that gives rise to the same idea, and i think so, and as a student, i say that a new society was born , in fact, in a political sense, a ukrainian political nation was born. in the 19th year, he may have gone, but you see, the tongue does not return to say thanks to the war, it happened

quickly and it became an accomplished fact. and why does the tongue not return? it seems to me that political nations in general were always born thanks to the war, if there was no war, it was not born political nations for a long time where there was no such absolute consolidation before the creation of the state, well, these are the same historical facts . they are not many. i agree with you, but at the end of the day, to say that thanks to putin, ukraine has turned into a raft, somehow our guts protest, but we say, let's say that the state of israel arose from many parameters because people understood the horror of the holocaust, it is not known how this idea would be perceived without it, well, on the one hand, it is a tragedy, on the other hand, it is a factor of state formation, she just said so because, you know, somehow, well, the tongue has already returned to say that's all, and i think that if it wasn't for the war, it wouldn't have happened, that is, this process was going on blurring the differences between regions, but it was very slow, very slow, and now here's a jump

, but a new one. and how long will that jump last? you understand, and the differences between the regions will not come out again, and how much can be rolled back if there is already a political nation , how much can be rolled back depends on the results of the war, well, but then the question arises, uh, we return to those groups that you talked about, what from this group which considers the exit at the border of 1991 and below as a victory, is there any distribution by region or not or is it all the same trends everywhere from west to east, there are more people in the east who were ready to sacrifice territories compared to the west, yes, yes, yes in an important moment there is, but with a very small force of differences, it is there, it is felt in terms of moods, and in principle, if we talk

about how people today perceive their neighbors there from other regions, it does not create any tension and you can see trends let's say this, rubbing people who live in certain regions, they are generally in the center in the west with people who came here from the east and from the south, these are the things that are alarming and it's not only what you said because now if earlier we talked about what the 22nd year became the year of national consolidation, and now serhiy dembitskyi, who is the deputy head of the institute of sociology, says that the 23rd year began with the beginning of fragmentation, that is, he says that ukrainian society

arose in it, a new social the same structure, not only those who lived permanently during the war, the war in their territory, there are idps, internally displaced persons, no one knows how many fathers traveled to lviv, only more than 200,000 in the lviv region, there are external grants, there are people who live in the occupied territories, there are people who live in the de-occupied territories and their set hmm are not always so equally convergent, you understand, and i do not agree with dembysky, he is such a sociological alarmist in our country, you know, golovakha is a perfect optimist. and dembysky is he so everywhere he sees something that there are some troubles, some points of tension and so on. and i do not agree with his statement that this

is fragmentation, society is going too much. in my opinion, but the fact that there is such a danger and that it is a mass of people is not the stoves are small, how many foreign migrants do we have, well, millions of people at a conference in poland, at a conference in poland, i attended the 18th congress of sociology in poland, there was the president of przemyśl, and when he spoke, he said that through przemyśl, we have hair butt 15 million ukrainians left and seven returned, he says. imagine that there is a small railway station somewhere on the border. 15 million and seven returned. this is a mass movement of colossal

numbers of people and females. in millions of streams, we said we never thought that we should make a separate room for those who leave with pets and showed us a separate plot for migrants from ukraine, a room for arranging those animals, as they say, a person stands in pajamas in slippers, but he has two cats and maybe a dog next to him and here the poles have the same mistrust, you know, this is not a picture for western people. so it is about the fact that colossal shifts have taken place, well, ella libanova, our academician , our demographer is sounding the alarm that ukraine is waiting for a demographic catastrophe, says that we may soon be left with 20 million

of those uh, 50 that were well, she talks about 30, in principle , to be optimistic, 30 so when she is in a good mood and so, so, somewhere it goes down to 20 million , so what do you see here, such a thing, but the fact is the fact in us in ukraine not everything is so smooth nowadays you understand, we have them somewhere, somewhere. so, in the english language, there is such an expression, tensions , that is, points of tension from which conflicts and tasks of sociology proper can arise from time to time. so, points of tension of possible outbursts of human somehow negative energy can happen. that is why i and i see the role of modern sociology in modern ukrainian society in the fact that sociology very often shows us

those negative things that should be abandoned. for example, i am always surprised when they treat modern ukrainian society as in ancient times, forgetting that it still has its own history, that the mysterious ukrainian national character was formed a long time ago and that certain archetypes were formed . for example, i was not surprised by the cases of mass looting by the russian army when they came to ukraine because this is a type of archetype of the horde that matured there with his own hands, while in ukraine other

architects were being formed. and now it is happening . we have roots in the past and there are a lot of such things that are alarming, that reveal sociology and uh , with which something needs to be done . emigrants, you worked there and i know. so they wrote about the fact that uh , where can you make such a projection, where do the roots grow, that is the twisted part of the beloved ukrainian treason, a part of the population who will now say

that treason must have happened, gentlemen, where did it come from and betrayed, where did this conviction come from, that any even a small trouble can be made into a fact of treason and shout about it to the whole country, and because we have such and such an archetype, such and such a feature of our national character, it was also laid down in our ukrainian e-e from a sociologist in emigration they called it not a complex of the inevitability of defeat, which did not grow in one or two days, which had its roots in the historical past, so that sociology and now when it deals with modernity, this can be my first major, because i am a historian by the first major, a philosopher by the second, only by the third a sociologist, that's me. all the time, this tenacity and these connections between the past and the present, they show their power, as for me, and knowing

the good history, you will not be surprised by this looting or those new horde inclinations to destroy everything, smash everything, spit on everything and move on to other peoples, because they will not stop at ukraine, you understand. if , god forbid, ukraine falls to them, the space that opens up because of it, then here we need to think more broadly, and actually think because ukrainians are another problem if we talk about features of the characterology of the ukrainian people this is the fact that we very often do not think rationally. and we are people of feelings , and ukrainian researchers wrote about this. the ukrainian person is a person who has heard all the rationalities

here . you should look for them very often, and here and there. thing and human sensibility understand the anti-rationality of the west. this is our characteristic feature, but it leads to the fact that the next feature is contemplativeness. the poles also say that they have feelings and the main feature , but there is no contemplativeness. well, you see, it pushes them to some kind of activity, and the name of contemplativeness like gogol and will it ever reach st. petersburg no to st. petersburg, maybe not to it yes, but maybe to moscow and it will reach two uncles are sitting and thinking to themselves, and here it looks like the truth is the same hrushevsky our patron said that uh, it takes a long time for ukrainians to get into work, but when they start, they will do well, well , there is hope. if you want

the sociological nature of ukrainian politics , it is quite often that politicians read the results of sociological polls and then just want to please their participants. why not? i remember the times when yanukovych said my sociology . my sociologist told me , that means yanukovych's sociology was the opposition's sociology . i just see that it was announced that we are really there, the vice-president of the sociological association of ukraine sav well, i can say that it is necessary to trust the sociological center, the groups , the institution, which are the affiliated members of the sociological association of ukraine, i would also

say the same to journalists who very often they throw up some numbers of some research that was done by someone who doesn't know, a one- day company appeared during the elections and more evil. research put it we'll just tell you the numbers and you put your signature, well, these are some extremes, but other countries or when a person sees a politician sees, you can say dislocation, public opinion is connected with these emotions, feelings and instead of to try to overcome him, he will destroy him correctly, but this is a matter of politics, not sociology, politics, of course, and there were such cases, which simply indicate that the politician is trying to align himself with public sisters, until you look at the question of

the elections, so now they raised the interview yu zelenskyi to the washington post , that means they asked a question rudely , but the time has come. dollars go to the trenches and conduct this survey yes, but the president's office relies on a specific sociological figure , and it is now 62%, no elections only after the victory , but 12 are in favor and this suits the power structures at the moment, this is the situation because of that

on the one hand, it is bad when someone works for someone, but on the other hand, it is good if a politician takes into account the results of public opinion research, he should do so, he can step on his own throat, but when the majority votes for a certain vision and the politician does not want it, but he has to agree to it that it's me so to speak, the voice of the people, that's it. do you think that putin was guided by the results of sociological studies when he thought about invading ukraine, of course he did. i think that he made the wrong choice and medvedchuk's information based on medvedchuk's sociology. this was one of the factors that i pushed putin to ukraine because the opinion of medvedchuk himself is nothing. it needs to be supported

by arguments. and what kind of argument is the argument ? well, fine, but you are putin, you are a person who works professionally with numbers all your life, even with times of the kgb, you need to tell me that this survey looked believable. we can't just write the numbers on a piece of paper. well, i'll tell you that russia has two armies . in favor of putin's decisions , played such a colossal, terrible role in the fact that such a society with the archetype of the horde was created, now about ukrainian society , because it was necessary to ask questions here in order to convince putin that a ukrainian - this they will support me, i know that daddies bring him, but i didn’t see those daddies. i can’t say exactly what his digital base was oriented

to his son’s war with ukraine. it’s obvious that you know numbers are easy to draw, and maybe medvedchuk was busy with them , drawing such numbers for himself for a long time on his way out, which confirmed his conclusions may well be, but i know clearly that sociology in russia stands in the same row , it is one of the most powerful weapons of propaganda, they are also there, you all think there , that center continues to work, in general, they are from about this about about about about the kremlin centers he has been for a long time and there is an unfortunate levada center that is unhappy only something shows there, but it is interesting that even here there is a sociology of power in russia and there is, for example, such a moderate oppositional one and the numbers do not differ much how realistic are you

you can trust such uh this livada center yes, you can trust them as it is, in what way would i look at them with a squinted eye, i trust more, for example, there is such a group russian feels, you can read that there are such sprouts of independent opposition sociology which, in the end, they give me the true information, how, in principle, is it possible for an ordinary person to understand where are the real numbers , where are the falsifications, well, first of all , see where the information comes from and check everything, do uh, and what is called fact checking, do you understand and how in general, they are not used to checking anything to ukrainians, checking to do that

fact checking, although there are already a lot of possibilities to check any news for their reliability, but for this, the party that sits on the bomblets needs to be a little i'm afraid, this is a transition from contemplation, so at least to some kind of cognitive activity . well, it requires effort, so it's easier to believe anything depending on your preferences. well, now it's very difficult for people to cope with this uh information flow. and i, in general i don't really understand the twist, a person who works professionally with information all his life, i don't understand how people cope, well , there is a center on my mobile phone for countering information disinformation. well, i also very, very much encourage students

to take such topics, you know, in order to understand about what are you asking, but it requires a lot of work, and what kind of work is anxiety, then to work, then from work, then to get something, then something happened, then volunteers, that is, well, it is very difficult , it all depends on the person who wants to know the truth or not very much, and it is obvious by the way according to sociological surveys, how much do people want to know the truth? do they just want to construct a picture of the world that is convenient for them, and you burden the intellectual task from above ? well, why not? i think that this is a matter of survival , because if a person understands an objective picture of the world, it is easier for him to come out, i will tell you that people approach me there from time to time, as they say that he watched some of my speeches before the war and it helped them to prepare better.

a sea of ​​opportunities for a person with all these military difficulties that i tell my students that if i agreed and had such opportunities as you do, but they do not have confidence in the future when you were their age, let's say there was no impression of the world that are destroyed by a frog in a beak with milk, you understand how you don't know who is bothering you, you have to tap the frog and the milk will turn into creamy sour cream, and then the butter and the frog will get out of the jar, you don't want to drown in that milk that's all well, i think that's it this is a very good ending to our conversation , because it largely sums up those efforts, in principle , people should contribute precisely when they work with numbers and facts, yes, just one final sentence for the optimistic

97% of respondents firmly believe in the victory of ukraine and glory to the ukrainian people, i invested in a consolidated society of 97% - this is wonderful, the absolute majority , we thank the guest of our broadcast today, natalia chernysh, professor of the department of sociology of the ivan franko national university of lviv and vice-president of the sociological association of ukraine, we talked with you for these two hours on the air of the espressobu tv channel in the winter vitaly portnikov, please stay with us and we will meet with you in the next few days. i also have to say goodbye to you

and to wish you a victory in which as much as 97% of our compatriots believe . good luck. i congratulate you on the espresso channel. today, in the difficult conditions of the war, ukrainian enterprises are creating new models of weapons for our army, from ibrepass mortars to missile weapons that look special and relevant. against the background of the statement by the president of ukraine about the need to increase domestic production and reports about the successful testing of new missile systems with a range of up to 700 km. this should really be interpreted as a noticeable progress in implementation of the state missile program, but is it worth talking about certain weapons projects in public? i think that without excessive detailing, it is still worth it that the statements of the president from shakhtar of the nsdc actually demonstrate, because it has an important informational component . as for the practical side of our companies and state and private companies that are successful in this