[000:00:00;00] all the karavcharov stories are in that plan. academician yuriy pivovarov vitaliyovych did not have time to think about his approaches, obviously he talked about it several years ago, so it is likely that he began to look at some things differently , but in any case, he seems to live now in berlin, so he had to to leave russia, so a criminal case was opened against him, as far as i know, there were no accusations, i do not blame. i just want to understand how people themselves create narratives that they then use dictatorship, that is national socialism, was also all this that hitler used was created by german intellectual thought, not by hitler, hitler was not capable of created norms, he could be capable of theirs before assimilation yes, but you see here rather we should have mentioned yuriy pivovarova and such a quasi-historian as vladimir medinsky, well, he is exactly like medinsky to him . it seems to me that he is exactly the opposite of putin's mirror

, you understand, he is. i don't know if you have read this textbook, i actually heard something exactly and through your the interpretation of other colleagues, well, you know, it's so difficult because it's like singing an opera noir, it's a brilliant thing, this textbook, i still read it from time to time , because you know, i have such a fondness for it, my childhood was like that i read some soviet history textbooks, such as the short course of the history of the vkpb and pokrovsky's history textbooks, and it was better for me than any children's literature.

this is exactly the textbook of medinsky, you know, these are the textbooks of the history of a simple person, the so-called volodya putin, as putin perceives the history of humanity and russia . medical and definitely affected a very serious thing and the formation of generations and this zet ideology is actually how aggressive it is and i am afraid that there is already a very well prepared ground for the perception of narratives of this textbook. moreover, there i understand the assessment of presidents, ah, it is very special and very. such a putin lens, or is there a spectrum like a prism? and which one uses it accordingly, but it is notable that this is essentially such an example, although some say that it is not he wrote, there was an author's collective, and if he defined it conceptually, this is most likely the case. stalin himself wrote the course cards. by the way , they say that there are people who knew how to write by themselves. now even that is over. well, stalin was

a universalist, we remember his questions the language of knowledge and so on. well, now the question arises as to how much it is possible to have a real neighborhood with a country that implements its persian narratives, what should the neighbors do in this situation, how should they work, what should we do in order for our history was perceived not simply as the denied history of medina, but as some kind of more or less organic organic material for people, so that people gradually emerged from the russian imperial discourse, the historical perception of history, well, it is obvious that to a greater extent the question is for historians, that is, how they can create some kind of, well, remember, the owners of the world are with you, and there was counter-propaganda, so-called and in soviet times, and it

was quite actively practiced . much more objective methods will help not only us, but also europeans and others in the world in general, and look at the history of balanced problems, which is so clear, that is, it is necessary to somehow undermine and show the fallacy of all these stories that we see and it’s clear that this moment is propaganda , it’s exactly the same, it’s all sewn with white coins. it seems to me that it ’s like a kind of self-revelation if you think about reading it, but i think it’s more for the internal consumer. but i understand that it ’s unlikely ah, despite the existence of the so-called global rooster, these narratives will be taken seriously in the world, and perhaps we are somewhat

exaggerating these dangers here, it is difficult to say , after all, one way or another, the entire history of the russian empire has always been perceived in the world precisely from the russian rather the international narrative of the so-called colonized peoples, and until recently this happened all the more. as far as i understand, you could very well experience this while in moscow, we know that there correspondents always sat in moscow and told about events in ukraine and not only in ukraine in all the soviet cossacks, it is difficult for a person who for the first time, by and large, an american journalist , heard the name of some republic and who has some source of information in moscow so that this person could objectively understand situations well, still, the situation has fundamentally changed now, of course, but you know that well , it can get in the way, and

we need to talk about it separately. from the constant attempt to pollute it with all the black colors that are orders, this is what russian propaganda has always done in ukrainian history, and responsibility for really difficult issues disappears. well, i don't know the khmelnytsky uprising for the poles , the jews, the greek catholics , what happened to them and in general, were they there after this uprising? with an attempt to denigrate the state experience itself, and this discussion in the west is still a much more serious day than in ours, the complicity of ukrainians in the crimes of the russian empire of the soviet union

, to what extent were there people of ukrainian origin who were ready to build an empire are actually betraying their compatriots, how to deal with this holocaust, holodomor, the real participation of people of different ethnic origins and how to deal with it, moreover, that ukrainians themselves were very often participants in the organization of this destruction of the ukrainian village , and they graze if we say that this is ethnic genocide and it seems more and more clear to historians. how could people of ukrainian origin take part in such a crime? well, that's simple. i drew several such themes, each of such themes is always very it is painfully perceived abroad, no one is going to be silent, i read him the other day, the interview of the ambassador of poland in ukraine, i am already such a farewell he speaks people who put up monuments to bandera glorify him, well

, in fact, they are the difficult situation in the polish-ukrainian lands he is exactly like that evaluates that nothing has changed war by war and bandera is on schedule , so to speak. and what to do with it, but here is another example , the volyn tragedy was given. well, i am in the example . there are a lot of them. yes, and of any people, you can find them all over a million stories are true ukrainians are by no means an exception, just a normal development of national processes, especially when a nation itself is colonized, lives next to other nations and fights well, but i would not say that we can now say that there is an adequate attitude to all these problems, that we can calmly and cold-bloodedly analyze each such situation fearing a blow to the state's reputation. if you want, well, these are very difficult questions, and it would be very correct to point out that these are very different eras, that is , let's say only the 20th century gives us

an extraordinary number of such cases when ukrainians were involved in very unattractive things and we must bear a certain responsibility for this, but at the same time we must not replace the concept when , for example, they talk about how putin says that , let's say , ukrainians played an important role in the genocide of the jews, they did not play a role. he says that there was no such thing the heart or the ukrainians themselves killed so and so and this is absolutely a revision of history, but what should they say to the ukrainians then? no, it was a session - there were no ukrainians there, but there will also be a revision of history, it was definitely a revision of history, of course. focus i would say russian history. they are never after the first reason. it doesn't matter who started it first. it's a well-known attitude to . well, the question arises as to how to talk to people . well, it should be part of the school programs

of the university. how to treat it on against the background of the european integration of ukraine, because i have no doubt that our neighbors will ask these questions, they will not bypass them, obviously, this should initially be resolved at the level of higher education, at the level of serious historical research, and only then it will be incorporated into school programs, and another the point is that what you said at the beginning are the primary methods. well, let's say the collaboration of ukrainians in the matter of building an empire. well, what feofan prokopovich stefan yavorskyi did, or let's say already in the time of catherine, and to the extent that ukrainians were involved, i can consider this collaboration. they are not from ukrainian states went there. and for someone else

, in any case, it is as if they unwittingly contributed to the construction of that empire that destroyed and destroyed ukraine. the search for simple questions, well, i apologize for simple answers to complex questions. and this is what is put on the agenda before us, this soul is irritating, such a relationship between what constitutes democracy and populism, well , there the greeks talked about ochlocracy, and the government crowd or now they often talk about direct democracy, that is, what i mean here is something different plast but it seems to me that it is also very important in relation to modernity, unfortunately we are observing a very big danger that comes from uh that populism that is asserting itself everywhere, and even to the western world, because when we talk about trump's brexit or when we talk about an alternative for germany , which unfortunately becomes the second most popular party in this country, we realize how much these

things really should worry us already in this political plan and to create such a ground for serious challenges already in the near future yes. that is, we are dealing with those things that are very unambiguously perceived and presented and, accordingly , the electorate in any of these western countries. i am not talking about what is happening in the so-called global south. that is, we are aware of how easy it is there , as it is now customary to say, to enter the eyes of anti-americanism narratives, and america as a colonizing country, as far as i remember very well , how at one time andrey kluxman, an outstanding french philosopher and publicist, wrote about what this americanism in france. well , there is so much of it, it is so difficult to fight it. and here we are dealing with it like this, that is. when we talk about unequivocal answers, it not only

affects history, but obviously also current issues that are really on the agenda now, where can we say that it is a new time? well, maybe . after the spring of nations, ukrainians were always clearly divided into the following three groups, which by and large survived until the war in 2020. there were ukrainians who wanted national development and from their own people and then it turned out in the 20th century. as a narrative of their own statehood, already after the 18th year, there were ukrainians who wanted to build empires , not only the russian austro-hungarian one. there were also people who were more interested in participating in this and not in er development of the ukrainian national project itself, although there were people who were the same again in all regions, which i am now always so many, but i think it may not be in

some individual differences of ukrainians, if you look at the history of the italian people there, there were also people who wanted to build an empire, they were close to gas, relatively speaking, there were people who wanted to build italy, they went there with explosives , they destroyed foreign officials, there were people who were absolutely fine, they live there in some tuscany. are you there, well, and they live well and at night in milan well and what does it matter good and so good and now we can just go through that stage of development like all european nations in one way or another passed just late we go through the new political conditions and definitely i think there is a general context here and we even in this sense, it can be interpreted as the integration of the people of the integration of ukraine into the european discourse, it is another matter that i would definitely consider the specific conditions of the habsburg monarchy here, because really even

if some rusyns from there joined as then they were called ukrainians before the creation of this empire, so one way or another, this empire, as we all perfectly understand, was much more sympathetic and loyal to these national affairs, which were done in particular in galicia, and what is not there compared to ukraine, which was under the control of the roman empire, i.e. the russian empire, i.e. i am not trying to perceive this as a positive thing , and joining this austrian or austro-hungarian discourse, but it obviously created much more freedom and opportunities for the expansion, let's say of the national vector of development and all the more, i like to remember that this is such an obvious thing, and that after all, the anthem of ukraine, the music was written by a greek catholic

priest who was a citizen of austria-hungary, so after all ivan franko was a citizen of hungary, he died a citizen of austria-hungary of hungary, but on the other hand, there are alternative examples, say chopin , er, mickiewicz or sienkiewicz, who were subjects of the russian empire , i do n’t think anyone mentioned this during their lifetime. and after their death, no one mentioned them, they are not perceived as the figures of the russian empire are simply zero. even the fact that mickiewicz is well acquainted with pushkin, well, he was acquainted as if they were abroad, uh, acquaintances, they were citizens of the same country there, zinkovich, who received a fee in russian rubles, is also not perceived as a person who once saw eye to eye the russian ruble, chopin lived with a russian passport , there are many such examples, and how did it happen that the poles were able to distance themselves so much from this country that it is not

associated with it in our minds because they still have chopin good russian, if we speak with a modern language, it doesn't even occur to us why it could be like this with the poles , but it couldn't be with the ukrainians or belarusians, of course. what is different from our circumstances ? but still, i understand, and sienkiewicz, by the way, is also one of the first nobel laureates, so he is a polish writer and no one in russia speaks japanese, you know, here in russia the empire has such laureates well, but they by the way, this is closer to me in the field of philosophy they very often, for example, like to talk about kant , who for some time belonged to the russian empire, so that is, they have his graves and kants are nicer than sienkovych sienkovych is not

included in the russian pantheon simply at all well, of course yes, but otherwise, this is an imperial attempt to involve prominent people somehow, maybe the poles don’t fit in here a bit. for a long time, russian socrates was accepted as a russian socrates, and it was usual in the 19th century, absolutely yes, but already at the beginning of the war, as we know, rockets flew into the skovoroda museum, and this is as if such a conclusion and how skovoroda himself perceived himself. what do you think he well, without perceiving the philosopher as ukrainian, someone probably did not perceive the name ukrainian at all, as we understand it in the 18th century, yes. that is, it is obvious already in the 19th century, we are dealing with er, this very concept

of ukrainian. so there kotlyarevskyi and so on it was already taking shape there through shevchenko, first of all, even ivan franko, in the end, if we think about it, he e. there at the end of the 19th century , he actively promoted the word ukraine, ukrainian , because at least no, well , it was usual to say ruthenians like that. the language was still very distant from that literary commission, so that the bolsheviks did not appoint pan as the main ukrainian philosopher, as they did there at some point , they made his time separate, so we ourselves would now perceive him as a ukrainian philosopher to us would be able to see its ukrainianness, definitely because it is ukrainian baroque and these are themes that are very organic to ukrainian spiritual culture, which are very different from the russian culture of that time, in which , by and large , nothing significant happened in the 18th century, that's why they actually wanted to appropriate the pan

because at least this was the author who, well, they played the moment of his succession through his mother with vladimir solovyov and the russian philosopher, so there are many layers of moments here. but mentally if we are we looking at poetry or philosophical parables, treatises, dialogues of skovorody, they are deeply rooted in this paradigm of the ukrainian baroque and these themes are religious, they are very characteristic of ukrainianism itself, although the word itself and how you understand it comes somewhere a little later, in principle, you can say that russians like how is the state such? i would say the project that they stole this history of philosophy in exactly the same way as they stole political history well, first they stole it, then they shared it when they were already big, so to speak, philosophy said well

well, it will be for the soviet ukrainians, and it will remain for us, but the experience itself is the incorporation of someone else’s cultural and political heritage that it was spread through philosophy. i think that universally, that is, philosophy is only a separate example of what happened in general, that is, whatever -what kind of spiritual culture is so different ? well, let's take ilyuriepin there or some other representatives of the equasi of russian culture or that culture that was called russian, and it is clear that talented people from various fields joined this culture indiscriminately. thanks to this model and this well, it is a common behavior to really assimilate and appropriate what is valuable, in the end we can cite many other examples when really as you pointed out , many ukrainians independently tried and

served this culture of this empire, so let's say we know mykola gogol who is in the end, we know that in the end depression came. in such frustration , we know that his end of life was very difficult. served russian culture well, of course, that was also an exaggeration, but hmm, here is a rather sad detail for me, which is characteristic of many ethnic ukrainians who really served russian russians. it was simply very difficult to be a great russian writer at the same time without feeling like one's own. this is actually a huge moral burden and everything you can describe write write analyze better than all your compatriots but you are not part of this world

of this society well, and besides, you remember what vladimir wrote, for example nabokov, when he discussed the work of gogol, he said that he could not imagine in his wildest dream that gogol would remain the author of myrhorod and arabesque, and accordingly it is gogol , well, conditionally, the ukrainian gogol who describes this ukrainian life, which is fused with this soil, and then if he already writes about in chinese writing, these are different goals , these are quite different gogol, well , this is the same . this has always happened in the history of russian culture. by russian writers and no one knows their previous work. are the people who wrote you what to take from the mother vasyl bykov these are the people who started with national literatures , switched to the russian language and the russians have already appropriated them, and the person on whose mats

here had at least we can hope for what we will read vasyl bykov in the belarusian original, but it will be very difficult for us to read in kyrgyz, i don't know. well, of course, but we can read there in ukrainian, and there is only a minute left. what do you think, uh, in principle, ours is naukova and the cultural community is already moving away during this war from the perception of such a big world through the russian narrative , so that it would be a decade. there or many other modern representatives of ukrainian culture who autonomously already identify it in the world precisely as ukrainian , there are writers, composers, there is palatin sylvesterov, for example, and as a ukrainian composer, and it seems to me already

irreversible thing, that is, it seems to me that the point of no return has been overcome, and hmm. yes, this autonomization happened to me. thank you, mr. andrii. andrii dakhnii, ukrainian historian of philosophy, translator, was on the air. thank you for coming in 5 minutes, we will return to the conversation with you, dear viewers, do not switch can become an obstacle walking stairs not with my knees for knee pain try dolgit cream pain reliever reduces swelling and improves joint mobility you can also walk the only yellow cream for joint pain is difficult talk about what you feel when you have urinary incontinence, an unpleasant situation can arise at any time, even with a slight effort, fortunately - it's behind me feminost uro helped me thanks to the natural ingredients of feminost uro helps to restore control over urination in the melon at night

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and this is access to exclusive content, personal thanks, fixed comments, special icons and the possibility of personal communication with the espresso team, click to sponsor and become part of the community with a ukrainian point of view, the war continues and not only for territories, it is also a war for minds. russia is throwing millions of oil dollars to transform ukrainians in little russia, ukraine will become russia, analysis and analysis of information about ukraine by russian propagandists, specific facts and methods by which enemy propaganda turns people into obedient zombies of the residents of the starichiv ldp, let's counter the information attacks of the russians in the project of the chronicle of the information war with olga len tuesday, thursday, friday at 5:10 p.m. on espresso tv channel vasyl zima's big broadcast my name is vasyl zima two hours of air time two hours of your time we will talk about the most important thing for

two hours to to find out about the war, serhiy zgoretska joins our broadcast , military summaries of the day and what is the world like? what is there in the world ? the economy during the war and new sports yevhen pastukhov is ready to talk about sports for 2 hours in the company of his favorite presenters about culture during the war, he is ready to talk about lena or other presenters who have become familiar to many , maybe the weather will give us some optimism ms. natalka didenko is ready to tell us and also we will have distinguished guests of the studio today volodymyr hryshko if all goes well the events of the day in two hours vasyl zimi's big broadcast a project for smart and caring people in the evening we will continue our broadcast with you as soon as possible

and our next guest is the ukrainian singer and composer, actress oksana vakalyuk. greetings, ms. oksana. good evening and glory to the heroes in ukraine. well, let's talk about how , in your opinion, ukrainian culture should be presented now in europe abroad by demonstrating . thus, these important contents about today, in our program , we talked about the peculiarity of ukrainian cultural heritage. 19th i live in berlin and , first of all, i would like to see that there is a huge difference between how ukrainians perceive us and what they know about us in poland and how they perceive us and that they do not know anything about us they do not know in germany in