[000:00:00;00] this is what we see in the majority of people who are in power now, who then is responsible for this question, there is no answer, mr. boris , excuse me from and on, step by step, until the finish of our program , are there two people and one advertisement , thank you, boris kushniruk, as the head of the ukrainian expert council of the analytical center for economic issues, we talked and talked and that's how i understood that fighting corruption well, no one at least doesn't know and no one knows how well, september 16 was a shocking day for us at that time when georgy gongadze disappeared and just today is the anniversary of the next anniversary of his disappearance and death. valentina tylichenko, the lawyer of the family of the murdered journalist, is in direct contact with us

. i hope we will see each other now, mrs. valentina . good health. i remember so well that i spoke to you 5 years ago i talked to you 10 years ago and 15 and nothing has changed, say that nothing has changed yes and this is necessary well, look at this line from me, my first question is this line that leads from death and george to the high cabins - to the high office there are no others no there were other versions, because there are rumors, rumors, gossip, completely different versions, but the original version is oda , here is kuchma’s office. here he is sitting there, here he is saying something, here he is being eavesdropped, here they are killing gongadze, you are all in the river for

everything - you have been there for many years, tens of years, you don't think that maybe society is looking in the wrong direction, maybe you need to look the other way, please, ms. valentina, thank you for this question, it is extremely difficult and i, until now , try to avoid direct answers to it the question is because i am in the process, because every word i say will somehow affect further legal actions within the framework of this process, but nevertheless, i will definitely tell you that apart from the version like this, er, quite primitive, er, where the customer is called the then president there are other versions of ukraine, some of them are absolutely ridiculous from my point of view , so i will not even mention them, but there is

another version that is based on such a comprehensive study of the events of the year 2000, we understand that the appearance of such a character major mykola melnychenko was not accidental and we are sure that there is a connection between melnychenko's records and the murder of georgy gongadze and i am still buying other events . actually, this version is that the murder of georgy gongadze was one of the special operations of the kremlin, i will not tell which version seems more likely to me, but i have to categorize well, but i will definitely say that this second version is no less capable than this than the primitive version that we called the first, that is, actually

speaking, the legal proceedings have reached that we unequivocally established that general pukach committed the murder with his own hands and he did it on orders, but then we look at what pukach calls leonid kuchma as the customer , can we believe that he himself ? the truth of this statement, you simply cannot believe them like that, it was very clear during the trial that pukach wanted to simply shift the blame to someone else. he repeated many times that he was simply following the order of the commander-in-chief or so

did it really happen, did she teach him or did he invent it himself, to say that to this question, unfortunately there is no answer, i really want to hope, i want to believe that we will have an answer to this question, but it is unlikely that it will already be in the court process p valentina and do you believe that the time will come and they will be found the forces that will really reveal because give a dotted line maybe if not a solid line what happened there because i want to tell you by the way that i am inclined to your second version of the special operation of the kremlin fsb just then it was the beginning of the 2000s and since then amount of evidence with poisonings there and in england and there will be and you see yushchenko, here is this one, and you see that this is absolutely the same then you could not believe well , how

did they get it? this is somewhere from moscow. there was no kremlin. there was nowhere to go and someone to hug. the kremlin was left as a result of all these events, and the whole world knew me . i was the former ambassador. ambassador i am your ambassador in to ukraine, he says: oh, i know this country, the president killed a journalist there, everything is obvious, if he says this, then he will never accept this president as a tyrant in his house until it was kuchma, then can we really hope, let’s say conditionally, they are quite cautious the answer and the question will be a careless answer. i understand you, if you imagine the best investigators in the world who

will come from the fbi with a cauldron of yards. i don't know there from the french police. so they will come and show them the documentation, show the testimony , show that they can advance. i don't say to open the toilet , but not to walk an extra 2 3 4 m or 2 3 4 km. an opportunity to show my ability to know what i know over a certain period of time. i choose the words. i apologize. after 2014, well , starting from 2014, the investigative bodies made

another big, powerful step in the investigation of several cases, if until now we mykola melnychenko's case was separate, the case of the murder of georgy gongadze, which also consists of several cases, they actually came quite close to summarizing and putting together several puzzles in a single picture. to allow this and even in the case of the fart's cassation review . this force intervened in our country, it is not known from where. well , in fact, it is known from where the numerous defenders of the fart appeared. we do not know where

the strange representatives of the victim appeared from. podolsky is, let's say, a deputy whose mother likes speed, and all this was clearly done in order to prevent the cassation appeal of the fart against the verdict of the ukrainian court, which was positive for the victims, and to have the sentence re-examined, the case was re-examined, it didn't happen, we won i dare to say here that pukach is completely legally imprisoned for life. actually , i would like to hear the words of ukrainian investigators here, not waiting for investigators from other planets, our investigators are also capable, but unfortunately there are many different political circumstances prevented this and we still have to wait. i really hope that , just as since 2000, ukrainian investigators and prosecutors did not allow the destruction of investigation materials, did not allow the destruction

of the results of their work, and now they will not allow the destruction of those materials that were collected in going to the judicial investigation of a whole series of criminal cases, where the events of the investigation took place in 2000. that is, you want to tell me that i am happy, this is an optimistic view, that there is hope, that there is a lot of it we are already moving on without taking action from the specifics of this case. and if we were to go to the law enforcement agencies in general. that is, you want to say that sooner or later the law enforcement agencies will be able to tell us about the maidan cases and who did what during the maidan and who has what type of crime and what cases we have already forgotten there , i don't know, some kind of investigation is being conducted on some

billionaires, millionaires, uh, economic , financial, that is , do you think that the capacity of the ukrainian law enforcement system is such that it can investigate all this and at some point in time make it public at least through court proceedings, what happened, i don't want to say. i don't want to go overboard with optimism in this direction. i understand that not in all cases it will be possible to show equal and such unambiguous progress in the investigation and, er , there are some sensational or very important conclusions of the pre-trial investigation to present the society in the end, in the court process, because i assume that the series of cases will not be able to be brought to court because there will no longer be any living defendants, nevertheless, since i am somewhat familiar with the results of the pre-trial

investigation in the city of cases, i want to say that in those cases, the investigators have already collected evidence that is very valuable for society . i hope that shortly after our victory there will be time and an opportunity to present these results, i understand what you know. it will be difficult to present the results because not everyone in society will be ready and our society is used to it not to trust law enforcement agencies, nevertheless, from a historical perspective, it will be extremely important and significant, in the end, i must say that the gongadze case is one of those criminal cases in which criminal proceedings are not a disgrace for ukraine, but the opposite confirms the ability of ukraine as a state to prosecute for criminal offenses, even such complex er in the investigation complex complex and so on so that there is hope of course

this is not a guarantee of course we understand that the last questions you have should excuse me, mr. valentinovych, but this is a very important question and there is in law enforcement agencies there are people who will be able to explain the reason you say it can be unpleasant for society some elements but for this the prosecutor has an investigator who never learn lawyers learn to speak in society how are you a from law enforcement agencies they don't know how to come out and say step by step here is such a proof and here are the proofs for you please and here are the same steps here and more proofs here and so and so and so and so what to make sure if they will start nitpicking bubu again here and there and the inheritance they are asking me then no one will ever know anything, you know, there would be evidence that can be presented to society. and how to present it, who will present it, that is

just the smallest problem. after all, we have a lot of technology to present certain evidence to a group of lawyers and human rights defenders, and then they would continue to represent this society or somehow differently, on the other hand, i do not rule out that consideration of this evidence will take place in the international criminal court. we will talk to a lawyer, it's important , lawyers are our future, advertising, don't miss the new season of the champions league on megogo, support shakhtar against porto and

watch the bayern-manchester united super match on september 19 and 20 at 10:00 p.m. exclusive on megogo, there are 10% discounts on volvit in podorozhnyk pharmacies for you and savings events, the most important events, events that are happening right now and affect our lives, of course, the news feed reports about them, but it is necessary to know what is happening to understand antin borkovskyi and invitation experts soberly evaluate events analyze them modeling our near future what on saturdays at 1:00 p.m. with a repeat at 10:00 p.m. studio event with anton

borkovskyi nayspressor is a scary place and such places have appeared again in ukraine we we see them in the liberated cities, torture camps, we know about their existence in the occupied territories of the russian world. if he had rolled back to lviv, it is very possible that this place would work again as a prison, as a place of destruction, disagreeable. who knows where i would be, where you would be, but now this is a museum at the cost of the lives of our soldiers at the cost of destruction at the price paid by all of ukraine this is a museum and may it remain a museum forever in august 2023 the espresso tv channel continues to lead the flow of ukrainian

informational tv channels i congratulate you according to measurement data viewers choose ukrainian ones view from espresso , congratulations , friends, mykola veresen, vitaly portnikov, autoboye to all. community and what moscow is lying about, from the stream of news coming from everywhere, we single out the most important ones. behind the backs of the commanders, the news, the results of the week are an overview of only important events, the weight of credible events

, are analytics, expert checking, expert comments, much more today about important things in simple language available to all viewers, congratulations, how many weeks is it that saturdays at 9:00 p.m. most express our program continues for 12 minutes more will continue and talk we will be these 12 minutes serhiyem pitukhova ukrainian international lawyer, senior lecturer of the kyiv-mohyla academy, ex-deputy minister of justice of ukraine good health , mr. serhii, i'm glad you found time for us it's always nice for me. you know, i ask all lawyers the same question again, now i have money, i keep asking it and asking it, and i won't ask. look, there is already an office of the international criminal court in kyiv. then let's talk about it. there are already criminal cases that

are opened . and they are out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of all cases. and there is potential in ukraine to investigate . i just physically think that these are 100,000 cases. this is 100,000 judges . this is one hundred thousand investigators. this is if one investigator per case is one hundred thousand prosecutors - this is 100 000 lawyers is such a number of people that i have the impression that no system can handle it even if europeans come there , i don't know thousands of europeans, it still won't be enough to carry out an investigation, hand it over to the prosecutor's office , the prosecutor's office will see if it is really possible to go to court, the court will come to court, or the court will appoint or itself he will invent a lawyer and a judge to follow him, and in short, competition will begin. it is also a big question whether ukrainian jurisprudence is ready for

such honest competition, because there is also a court of human rights and european and any the bastard goes there immediately, how will he see the mistake of his mother, this little girl, she immediately goes there and that's it. and there you already know, people look differently, your word, mr. serhiu. this is really a challenge for the ukrainian legal system for judges and prosecutors in ukraine, because you spent 90% of the work with the investigation and prosecution of russian criminals will be the responsibility of ukraine, any international mechanisms, such as an international criminal court, or even a special terminal that will be created - this is 1 2 5 a maximum of 10% of the largest crimes that are committed and have been committed on our territories, and on the other hand, it is the business of a generation of ukrainians and ukrainian lawyers to bring these criminal

cases to verdicts. and on the positive side, if we look for any positives in this, it is that these crimes do not have a statute of limitations, that is, they can be prosecuted even after 10 years and 20 and 30 years later and even now , until recently, there have been long trials of criminals from the time of the second world war who lived to the new world war and who were found in the world under other names in other countries but who stopped in front of the judges, if we sum up, this is really a challenge, this is not an easy task, this is a challenge for the entire law enforcement and judicial system of ukraine, this is the task of our generation for the next 20-30 years to ensure that at least all these crimes are documented , and at most all the remaining guilty parties were punished alive, see mr. serhiy

, but i have found such a legal question here, such a legal question of psychiatry, psychological. s- exerts pressure then the government and prosecutors and judges and investigators start scratching the back of their head and do something but society forgets listen eh we know p- but you already know we hear such an echo about the events of 14-13 and 14 years yes maidan a about the fourth and fifth there were no crimes and the society had already forgotten, if the journalists had not been on the alert , then today, september 16, when georgy yevhen gadze disappeared, they would have forgotten, and so journalists from time to time say to alyon, will you ever find him a murderer or a customer or not and this moment i have the impression that ukrainian society is oblivious to the fact that the memory is very short, and you are absolutely right that in cases of mass violations of human rights and crimes

, society is an important customer of criminal prosecution, and it depends on ukrainian society how much it will monitor the fact that those russians who committed crimes or collaborators in ukraine were not punished in history, there are different options for the development of events , for example, there are countries that decided not to prosecute en masse for crimes that were committed , for example, south africa, which after the apartheid had a so-called reconciliation commission, or even the not exceptional case of rwanda, where genocide was committed against one part of the population and up to 800,000 people were killed in 3-4 months, who, after the establishment of peace and a long civil war, decided not to prosecute for these crimes, but rather mr. serhiy decided to build a new one, they are currently recruiting, and it is very interesting . i hope that he, mr. serhii

, will not leave this opinion anywhere, because it is really a very interesting story about how light, this experience of the world , what where and how was done in the world regarding persecution or not persecution of people who were obviously guilty of crimes. this is a very complicated , complicated story. see, i just wanted to add to mr. serhiy and now i will tell about roland. now when football spectators watch the british championship they see advertisements visit rwanda survive panda i.e. now it is an attractive tourist tourist

country that survived in the 90s i.e. so long ago a huge genocide itself genocide i.e. one tribe that lives on this territory cut off other tribes that also live on this territory and this moment he is very very eloquent er-e obviously it is important on the one hand to definitely pursue these people who are her collaborators and just criminals but it is also obvious that we need to find that measure, and because if we take even fascist germany , not everyone was persecuted there , the main ones were persecuted, members of the ss were persecuted.

galicia and they have never been persecuted, there is no solution to the norwegian process, nothing touches the so-called waffensists, that is, the field , that is, the ss divisions, not those that stood in concentration camps, but in babine or in babine ravines. and those who fought on the battlefield went to attack, they were killed and so on and so on that's why they didn't get to something like that, but there were such, you understand , from estonia to croatia, this whole line was exactly where the red army was advancing, well , the truth was from that side too, let's not say that it wasn't there at all, but the most massive it was exactly where there was a threat, uh, the russian soviet army planted a threat, i already am, yes, i just realized that i already, i already started to talk serhii petukhov , senior lecturer of the ukrainian and luhansk academy, ex-deputy minister of justice

, listen to mr. serhiy, so you spoke just about rolanda, who decided not to pursue . and i gave such an example that when i watch, uh , english football, football, it is always written visit rwanda. that is, this country may be because she did not pursue, now she a tourist mecca and the whole world goes there and admires all these jungles and animals and so on and so on and so on and here to find this line where where else to pursue and where is it possible to forgive there is such a line at all should this be a public discussion there is no single recipe that would work in all countries, each country is looking for its own recipe, and i think that there is a consensus in society regarding the russian invaders, but for example, there is no consensus regarding the collaborators, because the situations are different, there are people who are forced

to live under occupation, there are people who are forced to passport and people who are forced to take social benefits ah and this is one situation. and there are people who deliberately go to cooperate with the aggressor, you are the day of compatriots, and with favors contribute to the destruction of the ukrainian language and culture, and this is another situation. at the moment there is no and this position must be developed by ukrainian society, society must decide how to treat people who are under occupation , what can we do, excuse me, excuse me for a second , the last question, and in your opinion , the legislator has done everything in this area you are right, there are so many collaborations there, each case is completely separate and many of them cannot be said to be collaborators. well, for example, i always give the example of the zaporizhia npp. there are unique specialists there

if they refuse to work now and they are now formally working in russia. well, then it will fly into the air and everyone will die, what should they do on the 14th when criminal responsibility for collaboration is criminalized? that is, it is in the legislation and there, in principle, it is determined that it should be a conscious voluntary cooperation with a drug dealer, but the problem is in applying this articles because we know the information when the law enforcement agencies that investigate these cases do not always question the interpretation of those articles, and if they want to, well, they can just hold any person who performed some functions for pay without knowing his situation liable under this article that's why there is a legal practice in the criminal end of the article, but it should be formed, i understand. yes, thank you. serhiy petukhov , a ukrainian international lawyer, a senior lecturer at the kyiv may academy, as the deputy

minister of justice of ukraine, was with us on communication and now i look at the clock and the clock prompts me to tell me immediately, iryna koval has the floor with the news. thank you, mr. mykola . i wish you a good evening and a good rest. in a moment, i will tell you about the most important events in ukraine. in the studio of iryna koval greetings, all the viewers were scared, the russians relocated landing ships from the black sea to the azov sea, this was announced by the spokesman of the naval forces of the armed forces of ukraine, dmytro plytenchuk, according to whom the reason for the great relocation was recently the attack by the defense forces resulted in the complete destruction of the russian submarine and