[000:00:00;00] to choose between absolutely specific things and the choice was er in favor of yanukovych, it was made by the majority of voters who came then , and this was by and large a verdict on the ukrainian state because, again, when society was entangled in large parts in 2013, it turned out that our train was already late already gone, russia already got the opportunity to renew the black sea fleet, increase its numerical strength, modernize its ships , which means that it is the occupation of crimea, russia actually already had its agent network in the donbass and in the south of ukraine, is it lucky that we then thanks to our volunteers and thanks to the politicians of the maidan wave, we were able to defend kharkiv and odesa because, in principle, the possibility of losing a much larger part of the territory then was absolutely obvious, and we lost more territory, then we won it back like this . fortunately, because the russians did not understand again

the situation that developed after the uprising, but it is necessary to be clearly aware that all this is the result of the fruitful activity of viktor fedorovych, all this in his company, for some thing, well, approximately 10-15% of our voters continued to vote as if nothing had happened i remember all the time. i remind you that even after 2019, viktor medvedchuk and the city of shufrych also entered the parliament, that deputies from the presidential party, servant of the people , voted for minister shufrych to become the head of the parliamentary committee on freedom of speech, and this means much more than the current e -th accusations of treason, which it is not known what will end. and how did you receive the news that shufrych was allegedly taken over? i believe that any accusations must be substantiated during

the trial, i have no doubt that now there may be many accusations of treason, what we saw is not an accusation, because if we saw that shufrych, a huge number of uh, there are some soviet symbols, yes, it seems that we came, you know, to some ukrainian super-patriot, and instead of to see embroidered women there, they saw soviet uniforms there, well, if i apologize, if the ostrich is written on the cage with the ostrich, then the ostrich is sitting there . well, you come to this cage, you say god, and right there it says ostrich, right there it says strauss, what are you come to shufrych, he must have a collection of russian and soviet artifacts, then i was very surprised by the history of this agreement, the bad weather with this document on the creation of the unification of the donetsk luhansk oblasts was surprising because its presence in shufrych's archives was presented as some huge victory for the investigation. although we all read those proposals in

the 14th or 15th year , journalists and deputies and activists spoke against them and against these e-e proposals, drawers of medvedchuk, not because they contained the composition of state treason, because that they believed that their implementation would make it easier for russia and the military ideological occupation of ukraine that under the cover of these proposals to change the administrative and territorial structure of ukraine is happening this is such a thing, but it is not a discovery because on the basis of the statements made then by the opponents, which includes medvedchuk medvedchuk he even went to court, he sued, and here comes the question. and what exactly will this document provide when it is clearly written for the first time in the lines that in order to er territorial integrity of ukraine er

save, etc., etc., that is, i am absolutely not sure that this is exactly this evidence, i admit that there may be others , i can generally see any politician from the pro-russian camp, these or other actions that are located behind the scenes of our being informed with you, but i would like this data and this information to be provided here to the judges so that it was that it was information related to exactly what we do not know because the most dangerous course of events will be these cases will simply crumble under the time of the judges of court proceedings will either simply exist, and the people who will be their participants will simply also exist , well, that is, it has already dragged on for years, all the known e-e instances will work there and so on and so on. yes

, there will be such and such a struggle for that who else is a state traitor without any real court conclusions, something similar is happening right now in one of the cases involving kolomoisky, the privatbank case , the pre-trial investigation period has expired and one of the judges will tell you everything we release the suspects rightly because it can also be dragging out such stories so that the accusation of treason is definitely an important accusation for me, and another important thing is the mood of the people. the question is that he is a member of the people's deputy of ukraine, that these parties of the opzzh, which were in fact the leaders of this block of the block, must be the party of regions , and the party of the region in the region came out of

all these criminal clans, which had special relations with er moscow were formed as a result, these are all absolutely real things, but people voted for this party. we are not always the question, but we are sure that the same voters will not vote again . who knows what ukraine will look like after the war to those people who say that this will never happen, i always point to, for example , let's say georgia, where there really isn't a single openly pro-russian party, but there is no great chance that the party will be georgian the dream has lost its monopoly role in the georgian political process, despite the fact that it seems to me that everyone already understands that georgia does not really want european integration, is not in a hurry to join nato, or does it keep its slogans

but does not take concrete steps, can it be in post-war ukraine, well, that is the question when the war ends, what state will society be in, will it not be the last frustration, or will it not be the main task of those who live here ? the slogans of the soviet times so that there would be no more war let them do what they want as long as there was no war what a difference if there was no war and we, the people of our generation, have always been very ironic about these opinions of our grandparents , grandparents now i am beginning to understand it better they were so frightened by the fact that they survived the bombardment , the death of close relatives at young ages of 20-25, when they lost their husbands, when they lost

their children, when they lost their parents, the german occupation , then the responsibility of those who lived in the soviet union the german company before the soviet government had hundreds of thousands of disabled people who were put out of sight post-war hunger that they had one single idea that shaped their entire philosophy of life to live in peace just to live they were absolutely not interested in politics, what was happening in general, how well they live in compared to the people who live there in the west in the west. how much or little freedom they have, they didn't care about all this because they carried it in themselves this burden of people burned by the real problems of the war, the war above for any freedoms actually for a person because during the war a person is just busy surviving and he is afraid every day

especially when his loved ones are fighting especially when he has to go to the bomb shelter with his children for sure that it could be their or her last day and this person the soviet people did not have such opportunities. she is coming to the elections for the first time after the war . we will live beautifully. we have already heard about the fight against corruption. it is also very important. i think this is a very important priority for you. okay, they are not safeguards for the fact that there will not be a high probability of war if all this is a sober thought, but i will tell you the main thing, why. this is my priority, apparently in he of the president of ukraine and as deputies of the verkhovna rada yes well, i am saying this is a quote i am not talking about myself i am talking about such a politician about a populist my main

wish is that there will be no more war ot how to do it what is important for me here nato european union corruption you can agreements with ours neighbors, maybe we need to somehow come to an agreement with russia, i don't know, i don't know, i've finished this war in my head, the most important thing for me is that there should be no more wars, what we went through with you , the most important thing for us is to live in peace and live in peace and that our children live in peace for our grandchildren to live in peace. imagine after everything , after the years of this war, how many people we have already lost , we will know the reality of the numbers of losses, how much economy we have lost, how many opportunities we have lost. the main thing is that there should be no more war . how many percent of people will such a person hold? populism is not for post-war voters. and i ask once again. and who will the people who will go through the most difficult trials

in their lives vote for? of course you are today . society lives under anesthesia. this anesthesia will start as soon as it goes away after the operation. it will be very painful and the main rank will be so that it does not happen again . it seems to us that we will talk as a society about some complex batteries. i am absolutely right, you are absolutely right about the safeguards to ensure that there is no war , this is nato, this is the european integration of ukraine - this is a strong army, this is true, but to what extent people will perceive it is difficult, it is already a difficult path. well, then they will. and when we become members of nato in how many years and the european union. and if war starts again during this time, i don't want to go through this anymore, we barely kept our family there, kept my son who returned from the front, why should he go again? it will be very , very difficult. i think that we have to prepare for a post-war electoral

shock of such a level that there has never been, uh , maybe never, so the danger is there, and i think that it is possible to get out of this situation you can go out we need to work as a society right now because when we lull it when we say oh, well, ukrainians are still childish , it is necessary to treat it like a small child. better than you , there is nothing difficult about talking to the nation as to an infantile child, and everyone succeeds in it only once , because then a person appears with much brighter promises than those who would were in power demonstrated i would say all the frivolity of one's own capabilities, but the truth is that sometimes such stories happen, personal stories that fluctuate and can

even reverse the course and development of an entire country , isn't that the story of georgy gongadze ? today we remember his 23 years as his no miroslava gongadze by the way, she wrote a lengthy article about her memories of the last morning with him, and actually it's hard to disagree here , it's the story of one person who managed to somewhat , well, not somewhat, but to radically influence the course development of our country, right? i just want to hope that even if we are all in some kind of state before coma as a society, then maybe, um, i always think that if this tragedy had not happened or if we knew objectively the results in that what happened, what we still don't know, it's also very interesting that we've been living for how many years have passed and we can't answer the question who ordered

the murder of georgy and if there was no kolchuk there would be no yanukovych and there would be no medvedchuk the story with the melnychenko tapes opened the way to one of the most important chances for the weakening of the ukrainian state as such. i think that we can start the countdown to the dismantling of the ukrainian state from the story of the disappearance and murder of heorhiy avangadze. i have never been a supporter of leonid kuchma and his regime, moreover, i i believe that the year 1994 was a conscious choice of ukrainian society at the expense of creating a state vassal to the russian federation, so the truth is that at the time of his disappearance leonid kuchma was trying

to maneuver between the west and russia increasing efficiency to a lesser extent when the second presidential elections were held, kuchma already realized that focusing on russia would not give him the opportunity to gain a foothold in power and that russia is as much an ally as the country is interested in the dismantling of its own capabilities i'm not even saying i think he was looking at the state as surely as his own as to his possibilities yes this possibility of course but when at the event we found out about this story with mr. gongadze when these tapes of melnichenko appeared that were made public by oleksandr moroz whom we last saw in the ukrainian

politicians before russia 's attack on ukraine, visiting oleksandr lukashenko, do you remember that? the strange story of one political career, from the leader of the communist majority in the verkhovna rada of ukraine, group 239, to the guest of the dictator who gave the territory of his country to attack our country. well, there was a lot in between other events, such as the betrayal of the orange coalition, which once again returned yanukovych and everyone else to power. well, we won't be long , we don't have time to tell all this political history of ukraine, but then oleksandr moroz turned out to be a person who was, i would say so in the voice of public concern, he made these tapes public, and i cannot clearly

say now that we, as a result, how do you say that this changed the history of our country, of course , but for better or for worse, but obviously her death itself you understand, they made the ukrainian state much more vulnerable, showed that it is not capable of dealing with its own crimes until now, well, again, we talk about it all the time, the killers of gongadze seem to be in prison, but so far it turns out that they are not they can say that there are no such tools to say what really happened, that they are afraid of those who ordered the murder of gongadze more than the ukrainian state, this is also a very interesting moment because if you understand what really happened, well

, there must have been some real reason that led to the death of the journalists the real reason is real why they wanted to destroy giorgia gongadze and who then could we answer what happened to ukrainian political history in the 90s to 2000 years, we really don't know this now all this is a public version that it was a journalist who asked questions that were too sharp for that time, it will be accepted, well, again , if he asked too sharp questions , there were many such people in ukrainian journalism, he died and there were attempts to kill podolska, but the question arises who did it who was afraid of these overly sharp questions, which specific person, which specific institution, with whom this person was connected, how much

was it in the interests of this person or institution and how much in the interests of the federal service of the security of the russian federation, which at that time could already carry out the orders of vladimir putin, i want to remind you again that all this, er , started to happen when when it already happened, the real er , cleaning of er, russia itself began to take place, this must also be clearly understood, gangadze died in in september 2000, and putin became president in january, and putin left as president. and it all started . and why? because the political program of russia changed, from flirting with ukraine, from involving ukraine in some kind of

political, energy and other schemes. to be carried out i would say it was more understandable for the moscow leadership lost the program to dismantle ukrainian statehood, the first step towards this dismantling was to be in complete compromise of the ukrainian political leadership, of course it could have compensated itself by its actions with its own hands, it was not very democratic, we as the leadership understand it perfectly but again the question arises who was the main beneficiary of the death of georgy gongadze who was the main beneficiary of the beating of podolsky who was also almost brought to death who was the main beneficiary of chain mail, vladimir putin. how did the presidency of leonid daniovych end? what did he change

from prime minister viktor yushchenko to prime minister viktor yanukovych? an agreement on a single economic space with russia , belarus, kazakhstan at the end of its presidency, and only the orange revolution, in principle, did not allow this agreement to come to life , so what mechanism began in 2000 to spin up the mechanism that, in principle, should have led to the liquidation of ukrainian statehood already by 2005 is very simple. kuchma is isolated, sign what we say to him. we are removing him . we are not creating a parliamentary presidential republic here , we are bringing yanukovych to power and he will dismantle everything . there was already a document already there it was already signed now the question is whether all this could have happened without killing her i think not it was, as you know, the first shot

of the signal gun and after that it started the real race that was supposed to end was the liquidation of ukraine as a state, it was supposed to happen in 2004. the maidan in 2004 interrupted it, then russia worked for a few years on revenge, they corrupted the ukrainian elite with cheap gas, they corrupted the ukrainian elite , let's put them in jail, that's how it happened with frost, who became the head of the verkhovna rada thanks to the union with yanukovych then 2010 revenge liquidation of the ukrainian army liquidation of the ukrainian special services yanukovych's threats to sign the association agreement he wants did not understand what he wanted to sign at all maybe i wanted to get money from the european union, it is not clear, but i was going to, but i am not talking about the arrest of tymoshenko and lutsenko , i believe you in general that if yanukovych would have signed this

agreement it was such a disaster, a disaster because he would have signed an agreement that allowed in ukraine should maintain the status of a country with selective justice, but that is already the case. this is the past and, in principle, 13-14 years interrupted this process. well , they interrupted it, but it led to victory. the maidan ended with the annexation of crimea, the war in donbas , thanking our volunteers for what they started to turn to the armed forces, we were really able to win back part of the territory, but as we can see, here we are. this is not the end of the story. i think that only after we clearly say that we have separated from russia, that this plan has collapsed, it has not yet collapsed, we are in the most heated the phase of the turning point has not yet happened because we have not yet won . maybe after that we will be able to learn the truth about what happened

in 2000. it is a question of opening all the archives because we know everything oh very well about the communist times but about the moments of our we don't know anything at all about recent history. people who were direct participants in the events are gradually leaving, many of them in russia, people will die for a few more years, well 5 7 8 and people who were directly at the head of the state at that time will simply die physically. we will never know the truth we will forever live in conspiracy theories such as, let's say, the speech of the united states of america, now some bodyguard of kennedy at the age of 85 or 90 wrote a memoir and said that he put a bullet

what second barbed first kolya he found next to kennedy's body, he put him on a gurney next to the whole or the president or on the operating gurney of the governor of texas who was also wounded during this and all of this in the united states is being washed and he, uh, how many years there under how much it seemed like this is a well-known story in detail and here in detail spoke and did not give any evidence . nothing. and this is also very strange. now we don’t even know if he is telling the truth. he doesn’t have any evidence. i took the remote control , but this is also impossible, but the main participants of the events are already in their graves. this is just one of the few who remained and it turns out that the person who will remain alive will be the last one to come up with a version of what mika that we all have to unite, well

, this is also absolutely wrong. each of us has our own projection of what happened in our heads. but again, i say, no matter what, we must perceive her death as the beginning of a major operation to destroy all those agreements that existed between russia and ukraine as a major operation to destroy ukrainian it's no wonder that the first victim of this was the first one, if you will , a soldier of the heavenly hundred who then appeared there in 2000 in 2014. his role in this is not that he asked some sharp questions, the authorities didn't like him a lot people from my colleagues at that time were asked sharp questions and the authorities did not like it, many of these authorities had different questions. i remember very well how then they limited the airwaves, how they did not give the opportunity to express their opinion, all this was all this and we all went through it, although yes i

believe that it is much more acutely done than many of us, this is an absolutely obvious thing, but the essence for me has always been in something else, you understand, in something completely different , so sometimes we just don’t notice it, just like, by the way, the murder of galina starovoitova in russia, the mysterious death of anatoly sabchak were also the beginning of absolutely of other events, it is not just a political murder, but the clearing of the territory from the last people who we had the authority to rule the new authoritarian regime or a bone. that's all. well, okay, you can understand. it seems natural when the regime tries to eliminate those who can to master and if we talk about the russian federation and look at who is now minus prigozhin, the condition of kadyrov and the reason

for this condition is not clear, and so on and so on. well, i think that the russian federation simply continues to develop in the direction of building a totalitarian state, i don't think that putin is not profitable kadyrov although many said that he could be the next victim of the totalitarian regime after the transition because he has his own autonomous armed forces, but there is no truth, kadyrov provides the children in that stability in chechnya bloody stability that has always been needed by the kremlin and the question always arises as to how much the kremlin can now find some other person who will be just such a guarantor of chechen stability, in general , the russian political situation is not very stable, but the fact that russia's war against ukraine gave putin such extraordinary opportunities that he did not have for 22 years in a row that he can now build a totalitarian regime that he can reveal his own face that he

hid there it turns out that he is both an anti-semite and a xenophobe and anyone else, and he has a best friend, who does he do, he doesn't hide any of this already, you know, like a person who used to walk on two legs in a tailcoat and now suddenly became four . burned do you understand, in russian folk tales, they burned this frog skin so that it would come out, who is there, what was her name, uh , elizaveta is beautiful, or i haven't forgotten . to be honest, in this case, well, it came out. not some one there, beautiful some terrible monster there and this skin of the head of a solid, stable state is burned, well, now everything can be complicated. what is it? it doesn’t matter who will be the next victim of tatarism. what matters is toltarism itself, which thinks every day about the murder of ukrainian women and children. this is

really of great importance. i think we can er stop in our er conversation today and thank khrystyna yatskiv at 2 p.m. in ukraine news time on the espresso tv channel in the studio iryna koval welcomes all viewers and just now to the most important of the events of the fighters of the assault brigade of the national guard, a photo from the village of klishchivka was published to the public, in which the fighters are standing with the flags