[000:00:00;00] under pressure on leonid kuchmov, well, then there were these cat scandals and many other things , as if to take control of kuchma in this way, and this topic was dominant. well, i don't know, for many people, it was as if no one was to blame , it's just that the russians used this story for in order to kill gongadze and influence. and what about congats - they are just like such an adapter, yes, an adapter for the current, but he was not, he was not the main goal, but i would like, mr. roman . what do you think, why did this happen in the first place and how believable can it be? or no, after all, this story is not about russia, this is not about kuchma, this story is about the murder of a person who, well, personified what was not needed at the time for the ukrainian political elite, this is freedom of thought, this is freedom of speech and independent journalism, please, this is the last one your statement. it probably has the right to life, because the fact is that the individual was an absolutely uncompromising person , he had no shades of gray, he was either

black, and the corrupt structure of the state that kuchma actually built, what an exposure of the state stole entire branches of our industry and squabbled between her close associates, she could not correlate with this uncompromisingness of the journalist heorhiy gongadze, that is exactly why the piece has an exclamation that you have quoted several times that it should be sold to the chechens somewhere because this system could not be correlated could be related to the uncompromisingness of the journalist gongadze and that is why it ended the way it did and it ended because they could not exist in parallel, this is the second time for how many presidents who are currently in power, could they would you like to investigate? i don't know, it's been a long time, a lot of people have probably already died who know this, eh, no

, just like that, there are many people who are still afloat, and the oligarchs who are close to kuzma are the same as his son-in-law. after all, he was also involved in this murder, well, that is, everything is very complicated and difficult . well, there is no doubt that we need to investigate , no doubt, ukraine wants to know the truth . no doubt, we want one thing, but how can our state give us what we want here? the big question mark is the leadership the state is not better at all, because we see here exactly what they were, as if they were being reformed. but again, i want to go back a little to the 13th year , when i accidentally met lesya gongadze near the pecherskyi court. and where she sat, just sat on the road, crying and i come up and tell mrs. lesa what happened, go, child, because

you will be killed too. i tell mrs. no, let's make a deal . you were drunk. it turns out that for 6 years the idea of ​​suing the then deputy minister of internal affairs, jiva mykola, who lied to georgy gongadze, that georgy gongadze turns out to be a liar, a thief, what do you say to gongadze, someone stole cars in georgia, and he told it on television in the early days, the press published it, and lesya as an organization tried for 5 years to sue him or six. the court did not then in the end, lesya accepted the envelope and somehow overcame the court, but the court did not convene a meeting. and in fact, when i met lesya gongadze at the podpechers court, it turns out that the meeting was not convened, but the lawyer who was lesya or lesya was given a lawyer, well, let's say betrayal to olesya, he changed her statement of claim and it seems that the case is being filed not against because it is against

the publications that she sat crying and said that there is no truth, she will not achieve anything. i still convinced her that we will do it. i found an excellent lawyer unfortunately for oleg the king, he is already dead, he was replaced when he freed the children of buch, and here we are with oleg the king, the king in four meetings already without lesya gongadze, because we told her not to go here at home, we are in four meetings, i am the head of the public organization of the memorial and he as a new lawyer in four sessions we won this case and who do you think we won it in court vovka serhiy vovka so on june 17, 2013 we received a court decision that the name of georgy gongad is actually this court decision is honest and what, actually, mykola dzhiga should pay 1 hryvnia compensation to lesya gongadze and publish in these publications that

he diverted lies from publishing the truth, well , he certainly did not publish this truth well, but i was able to get just this decision from the court, and already during the maidan and about a week before the death of olesya gongadze. and as we know, she died on the night of the biggest massacre on the maidan. i gave her this decision and she cried a lot. she prepared some red fish for me specially . we talked with her at midnight and she said that now i can to die peacefully because my son's honor is unfortunately but unfortunately she never learned the most important thing after dying about and about the customer and did not see the punishment we will talk about it again about this key moment now the pause literally did not last long i ask you very much to stay with we are in touch, we will return in a few minutes and go to the essence of our today's topic, well, actually, about the customers and why the gongadze case still remains

, as they say, a crime without a punishment, pain can become an obstacle and we kneel down from pain in the knees. try the dolgit cream for pain relief reduces swelling and improves joint mobility you can walk the only yellow cream for joint pain don't miss the new champions league season on megogo support shakhtar v porto and watch the super match bayern-manchester united on the 19th and 20th of september it's at 22:00 exclusive on megogo there are discounts on motilium tablets 20% in pharmacies traveller, bam and savings, the war is going on and not only for the territory, it is also a war for the umy russia is throwing millions of naftodors to

turn ukrainians into small russians ukraine will become russia's analysis and analysis of information about ukraine by russian propagandists specific facts and methods by which enemy propaganda turns people into obedient zombies reunification plans to vote residents of the ldr resist information attacks of russians in project chronicles of the information war with olga laziness tuesday thursday friday at 17:10 on the espresso tv channel i congratulate you this is freedom life on radio freedom we have already come to the very change the following frames may shock you news from the scene live kamikaze drone attacks political analysis about objectively and meaningfully there is no political season exclusive interviews reports from the hottest

points of the front freedom life frankly and impartially draw conclusions yourself the war in ukraine is the main topic for ukrainians victory and losses, analysis and forecasts, politics and geopolitics, serhii rudenko and the guests of his program will talk about all this , people who have information and shape public opinion, people who defend ukraine and create the future right now, the main and interesting thing in the program is the verdict of serhii rudenko from monday

to friday at 8 p.m. :00 repeat at 12:10 we return to the conversation, our topic today is crime without punishment, why have the masterminds of the murder of journalist heorhiy gongadze not been punished yet? we still don't know the answer to the key question with us roman gunda hoomin editor of the time liberation struggle russian rainbow on the editor of the newspaper day well, actually the book about which mrs. larisa was talking about the boiler is a matter without a statute of limitations. by the way, this book is a gift from the publishing house. it's nice, i'm reading it, i studied these documents, i now want well, we had it literally 20 minutes ago , i want us to have five 10 minutes at a time and we'll try to answer the key

question why haven't uh not been specified yet the clients of the case and are there really those moments that could lead to these clients or together with the colonel fart the whole story was over and the perpetrator was punished? uh, the orange revolution, well, if the ends were cut off, then they were cut off at the end. is it still possible to continue this thread, ms. larisa, please? well , it seems to me that even in this book , the causal circumstances and everything that is possible are covered in detail was to be done and only the state of ukrainian politics now has completely different priorities in society, i don’t see anyone who should be interested in the affairs of the end of this case, the calculation of those who lost millions , all kinds of millions, i will write this, it did not happen, it

turned out to be very cynical and realistic, and knowing the state uh, society and journalism. you achieved what we call a moral operation so that this matter has no statute of limitations . but in fact, 23 years is already the statute of limitations, as they think, although for the most serious crimes , of course, there are no such statutes, but here moral fatigue is already coming to the lives of new ones, and a new part of society that generally thinks that this is some kind of prehistoric topic that should be turned over, forgotten and moved on, and those who wanted to make money from this business made money and uh , unfortunately, a tragic story with the publication that was founded by georgy gongadze as well statement of all this. that is, this is such a moral destruction, a devaluation of the foundations for society

, because there were times when it firmly stood in defense of the truth, and now society is blood , brutal wars, in particular, because there were previous missed chances for moral recovery and we call each other and say let's do something , i don't have any more questions, that's why we need to evaluate society now, its priorities, its strengths , its political opportunities, external , remember. there was a time when voices spoke , sounded from the osce, i say, they announced there were e- there are intellectuals in the west. and now there is none of this and it will not be soon because many western intellectuals also accept the games of our dominant plan which is very

successful in front of the foundation and in the eyes of the surprised public who says how many presidents do we have? well, you may have many presidents, but we have only one system and it has remained unchanged, because the last maidans were emotional, but they did not set themselves tough, rational tasks. we still have not followed the path of solidarity when it left poland 100 years ago said that you understand that we should bring our trip a little closer to the real state of society . of constant appeals for justice, justice could be established if we talked about whether realistically everything is normal and who we should rely on in this, and therefore we see that our judicial system is still in spite of all the seeming changes

of face. that is, it is a complex of issues is gongadze and his tragic death, or does it only show the intractability of fundamental issues? i'll clarify with you and then i'll give mr. roman 's word. as a husband, we are sorry for the time being yevhen kirilyovych marchuk, former head of the security service of ukraine, the prime minister of ukraine, who worked in the system of the soviet kgb, and it had a very good school and, of course, connections and understanding of the situation. and i am not asking there to give out any secrets, of course but when discussing this matter with him, i am not convinced that you talked about it. he understood and knew who did it and how, why, in his opinion, it could not be brought to court and to and to

punishment, you know. well, i only think that mr. novel would you let me read the book, i would like to put it on the topic of foreignness, and then all three of us knowing this book, we could discuss it more with you, that's why we asked yevgeny kirilyovych, too. and he wrote the text . he defended his dissertation in great detail as lawyers from the opposition. and there the peace so that nothing could be harmed, he simply motivated it, told and showed but you understand that there was a whole large line of efforts spent on the fact that the responsibility was transferred to innocent people and one of the targets

. unfortunately, he was taught by a person who was absolutely not involved . they wanted to blame and it was cynical. because what we wrote, we can basically look them in the eyes now and prove absolutely calmly absolutely the point of view and they cleaned their archives a lot and they will understand why because they took discrimination in paid companies for one time despite the fact that i, er, well, i treat oleksandr moroz as a traitor to the kaniv four, who er, simply collapsed the chance of the ukrainian position to bring marchuk to power, and i cannot no with what sympathy speak about him because he was the one who voiced together with lutsenko in the group, and then recently gave an interview that they go to kuchma's in the neighborhood, drink a glass with him, and there they probably discuss the consequences of ukraine's affairs

, the military or here, that is, this serginess , this venality, well, in some sense , ukrainian politics she put the parts the problem of this destruction is still there, you also remember the picture of lutsenko on the forum of pinchuk, when he was in the climate after the movement, it was dissolved , by the way, it was a photo contest of the newspaper, the day we were at that time. well, these were very tiny attempts to show this colossal problem of morality that stands before the ukrainian society , how to separate the labor problem, because now they are as if nothing had happened, everyone there is telling so far that they are heroes. and are there any better sides, but the main question in this you did not contribute to, because russia at the hands of ukrainian politicians in the early stages

they blocked the strongest person in this case , their task was to prevent him from coming to power, and they did it with the help of kuchma and kuchnost, unfortunately for journalists. the falka itself for a long time, they also achieved this , too late, but still won a victory for britain, ukraine did not learn to protect its sons because russia then bred our politicians mice to confirm your words, i recently watched a film about the operation to prevent the occupation of crimea back in 1994 or in what year was the actual participation in this special operation alpha participate in the organization, so to speak

, because now yevhen yevhen marchuk should not look like a participant, the choir organizers a those who were leaders, they should remain leaders, that is, then russia did not succeed. precisely because there were professionals who succeeded under the noses of the russian special services, in fact, society , because russia realized that in ukraine there is a person who is capable of beating ukrainian. the society did not understand this and did not appreciate this and allowed the 99th year to elect a person in russia once again, and then kuchma's children followed suit . and now kuchma's political grandchildren and we call on them to do something for us, because you yourselves are incapable of anything. we can only walk and wave slogans, listen, we have to learn, this is the latest story , where are the savages, the whole series well, for the sake of our children, unfortunately, they can steal from us now

, because there is supposed to be a meeting. e p roman, in your opinion, you know it is very unfortunate that what do they think of the little man giorgiy gongadze, because for all the people who were there, yes, well, there is a very large number of people, i know many of them , and the whole story is timely and interesting . eh, and on a larger and smaller scale, there begins the odsurkis, well, there, and, but, and oh, the story that the death of a small person decided to make unimportant and to preserve political stability, and gongadze, well, they found a fart there , if they ended there, i would like to be very brief, mr. roman in your opinion why is this why is this a problem? and why is this, well, and such things must be brought to the end sooner or later so that we have a country in which there are no small people and not small people, and if it is a political murder there or the murder of a journalist, then it must be investigated and should not be s-, eh hiding under a cloth because of the interests of the oligarchs there or the political elite

, please know. i think there have been uh-uh because there are many situations in ukraine. there is a lot about this situation. well, maybe it is possible it was such and such a time and in such and such a place, and what do we know about this situation the most ? it is witnessed. why did it, uh, acquire such a sense, precisely because society began to fight against the oligarchic power of kuchma. why is it not investigated because there are certain influences of the oligarchs interested in this issue, and again, we talk a lot about independent courts and about the independence of power structures and bodies, but from us, in the end, the world community requires independent and most importantly transparent and independent courts, but they

do not exist and will not exist as long as we have a republic the state is an oligarch as long as there are oligarchs and as long as all the tatars there or the offices of the president will have influence on the courts until then we will have this is the situation with russia, so it is undeniable that russia is acting in absolutely every way to grab , occupy, destroy ukraine, so it is much easier and cheaper for them to bribe a certain amount oligarchs or judges or anyone else, even through her mass media or through the mass media of oligarchs who were ukrainian and had their own business in russia. she acted. it was always much cheaper for her than this war that is now it was heaven and always hoped they didn't always find money even when they didn't have money they found and acted even the same yeltsin at a time when there was really no money in russia and said that we russians should get up every day and think about ukraine, that is, actually how

to grab ukraine and they always found money and opportunities and corruption scheme, how could it be possible in ukraine to put a boa constrictor on the neck, so until we understand that we need to get away from moscow, until we build honest courts, honest law enforcement agencies and an honest government, we will live in the same unfortunately, i also want to say that in lviv, on svoboda avenue, the tree planted in memory of georgy gongadze is already very, very large, and even now the case is not being investigated, the state is still struggling, suffering in blood, in agony. well i don't know. for some reason, i believe that after this war our society will change. i believe that after this war, we will look at the world differently and choose our government differently, and we will not look in the direction of buckwheat or in the direction of populists, etc. there

marzipans that some promise us, i don't want to name their names. i believe that ukrainian society will become different, it will become more mature. and in fact, then we will be able to overcome the difficulties that we have now. control er surkis well, er, he is grigoriy, not igor , who is older. well, i remember historically there, he promised to pay $200 or $400 a month for the maintenance of this resource. i worked in the city then raspberry in superbooks, that's it it was 2000, i had just graduated from university and i was paid $60, remember. then i add that $400 at that time is damn small, well, if it wasn't a little, but it wasn't some key money, but george i, the host says, and he wasn't sold for any handouts that wanted to buy him one way or another as well as the first such independent information resource at that time. and i would like to ask larisa about your last

meeting with georgiy, did you have a feeling that something like this could happen to him or was it completely surprise i remember for me, well, i didn't know georgy, i was very young in journalism then still there, but but it was very somehow not unexpected , how did you rate it, a person who was familiar, who also knew the political situation in the country. - first, it would be tragic in general to be a journalist, and then so much time has passed to stir his memory, to say that a-a line was not only very bright, charismatic and brave, but very often they were not defeated in political connections and all other troops, which became a prerequisite and with - with such a certain background in this tragedy, they don't really look good, but when we start talking about it, well, no one forces us to block all this and tell what really didn't happen. that is, you should, if we

were serious researchers, we would restore this whole it is a very tragic story. it is not beneficial to many people. they started stirring us up once again. everyone has somehow reconciled. i say those who traded in this story. they also don't want this one to start , but justice has been established for those interested . well, surely there should only be myroslava and children, and if it had been this long. your children have also grown up. doctors have long been detached from our reality, i think, and we, starting these conversations, are only beginning to reanimate all these pains, and well, chess from what was happening before our eyes, the colossal injustice of the insulted memory, then treated monuments were named, streets were appropriated, the title of hero was given without understanding anything and without intending only to give further information to society and journalism so that

they turned to silence and did not dig into anything, this actually happened and continues to this day and then they began to buy some more western people who began to travel here to tell us how it is necessary to be moral to fight corruption with the money of corrupt people , that is, that is all, cynicism has already set in and we must already understand for ourselves what is really going on with this case. maybe someday it will make a film, maybe it will be in 50 years, someday this story will arise again only when society will not be so painful and there will not be so much blood, but there will be a reason for the holiday connection when the murder of one person such a difficult and complicated controversial matter well, maybe not exactly heroes as such a hero, because i am talking again about igor oleksandrov, who was beaten with bats for

speaking against volosey today in novoselyansk, and then there were also conversations on tapes when instructions were given in the same way who was supposed to solve this system, that's when the lights started, which led to the mobile donbas, those judges, these conversations of words, there you can say a simple stage used it for blackmail, but it was all a pity and there were people who testified that they knew that this was correct there were conversations, it had to be enlightened, it had to be fought with, it had to be pushed out, but we couldn’t do it, and it all shifted, we say now how many people of some former past are sitting there in these countries, yes, we have two fronts, one open military war with

russia and others within the country, the war with its past , the war in which we have not yet had such great success and it can simply drag us into this hybrid state for a long time. things are his marriage, and thank you very much for the work on the book, and thank you, mr. roman , for joining us for your work , by the way, not to mention the support of the family and the already deceased mother of georgadze, and thank you for finding time for us very well talked and remembered and it hurt, but there is hope that after all new ukraine will be able to close all its gestalts and one of such gestalts not closed is very painful, very tragic this is the death and murder of george gongad let us believe that there is really a lot in this very difficult topic who of the journalists there since those times, i have been there for many years, i knew a lot of things , uh, that are not talked about, but you can put a full stop there, we believe that it will be put and this place will be washed away from the reputation of the ukrainian government

, first of all, thank you for being there with us this was a worldview program on the modern will start with you until the evening and then watch the news with us espresso will be with us i congratulate you dear tv viewers this is news with you in java melnyk and this issue starts with such another 45 tanks will be transferred to ukraine denmark will be 15 modernized t-72 as well as 30 leopard1 the ministry of defense of the country announced that t-72 tanks can be immediately included in the armed forces of ukraine, but the use of leopards by the ukrainian military