[000:00:00;00] do it yourself, let's continue saturday's polyklop lesya valyuk vitaliy portnikov and now i will be with us valery chaliy diplomat ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019 mr. valery good evening good evening i congratulate you let's start with the most important thing , the visit to the united states took place and what so to speak, in the dry balance of the dry balance of drawing attention again, after all, to ukraine , to ukraine, it is really possible to talk on the eve of the vote on the package of military financial assistance of 13 billion in the package of 24 well, it is not the first personal contact of the presidents, but in the new conditions, it is obvious that

the atmosphere was more, so to speak, neat , working. joseph biden did not hide his dissatisfaction with some questions, as for me , this is my subjective impression. and why is this not satisfaction or not a coincidence of the strategy as new a yorktant writes eh well these are guesses maybe the work there was so very substantive and that's why our delegation was a bit like itself , well it was definitely not a festive pathetic eh vent and it was very so confused strongman and what caused it well we'll see and regarding the missile attacks, it was only in the media, now they leaked this information, we expected that it would be said publicly. i think they will , of course, but the mechanism will be different and it will take longer . of course, it could be done in a slightly different style. under normal conditions, it is possible to evaluate his absolutely full positive visit in these

conditions that we have, our expectations were higher, of course, our expectations of people in ukraine, but it is like that here. by the way, when they go together, the main words were said in fact, what can you say about the contacts with the republicans, this is about how mr. kevin mccartney, the speaker of the house of representatives, spoke, who will say that zelensky is not our president and not a congressman, so that they do not speak to the congressmen about the fact that not only was there no speech, but there was a rather harsh conversation with the congressmen about the fact that the issue of military aid has not yet been resolved until the military budget is unblocked, and the presidential visit has not changed anything, it must be said well, for now, yes, for now , what are we thinking? contribute, but there were no conversations with the opponents

, there were no conversations with the democrats, uh , well, with the democrats, there were, although there was no burning of the representatives, carry me off the topic . in principle, he was suspended in this state , that's why he himself no longer makes these decisions, and his statements are quite harsh in fact. why did it happen? a speech before the two chambers of the congress, uh, expecting a negative answer. but at least agree that this should not become public, it is not a failure, in fact, it is difficult, it is a difficult matter to do in such a way as to squeeze out the opportunity as much as possible and, in the event of failure to achieve the goal, to avoid public publicity. and so we got something. yes smeared effect from the congress well, not everyone wanted to take a picture of it , even yes, this is such a signal that

the emotions and enthusiasm of ukraine is already yesterday's situation, today, in fact, we have to work with everyone. and by the way, we also have to work with our opponents, work with everyone, meanwhile, instead of working with those who are very close to us and who will support us , we quarreled with the poles even higher in america , at least that's how we exchanged such barbs for a whole week ukrainians are discussing and ukrainians and poles are discussing what happened between president zelenskyi and president duda, between whom, as if due to issues of gradin, there was no meeting now, by the way, volodymyr zelenskyi and somewhere there in lublin, he awarded polish volunteers and journalist bianka zelenska a-a hmm i understand that i am talking to the president. yes, he did not meet in poland. to put it briefly and

frankly, the use of the tool of speech at the un general assembly from this podium touching on bilateral conflict issues , these are not the best solutions. yes, we are what you say. and if you are serious, whoever proposed such a solution, if you insert it, that is exactly what the president's speech did, because he blurred the key messages that are really a priority today for ukraine, from this speech, everyone will discuss this passage by countries to our european friends, who can play along with moscow or create such conditions, well, this is harsh, it is unacceptable to such countries, which really, well, in this situation, how to protect their interests, but it is necessary to understand that priorities should be set correctly and this is a mistake, it is a mistake if it is deliberately done on aggravation as a style and such resources

of ukraine. to win with all countries , there are no such disputes, therefore i consider this a serious puncture. and as for the correction the situation is urgent. the meeting of the presidents of ukraine in poland is urgently needed. they showed outwardly that they really found such chemistry between themselves. their hugs were sincere. i think that this resource should be used as much as possible, because this is not an episode. our relations with poland, you know very well, they have always been such a combination of rivalry . conflicts of the strategic partnership were all our story will continue, but about how to solve it there is a committee of the presidents of ukraine poland why it didn't work what mission why it didn't work i ot by the way, i use that vitaliy portnikov, yes, vitaliy, i think that this ukrainian-polish structure still exists, public yes , it does not exist, it does not exist, it was destroyed

at the request of the polish side. do not forget that the polish side came to power from the moment of right-wing politists in poland, er, i would say that she consistently destroyed any platforms for dialogue. we cannot close our eyes with you to what happened 19 months ago. what were the polish-ukrainian relations, these are the same people, so none of this works i to be honest, i think, mr. valery, that if the meeting between the presidents of ukraine and poland takes place before the parliamentary elections in poland, it will be a huge success, because we see that the polish side is deliberately going to escalate, so president dudu says some conciliatory words, and prime minister morovecki makes provocative statements , and here we see these interrogators of yaroslav kaczyński, who simply with these presidents , prime ministers, as such , you know, puppets in their hands, one will talk about the peace of his words, the other will provoke himself kaczynski will speak wise words, but in principle, all this has nothing to do with ukraine, they are just fighting for their own power, i see it well, why

should they warm up? that we played along. yes, but it worked out. i think that satisfaction is of course why we will not be satisfied. they have a traditional enemy again. well, no, not in favor of the next step, and here the interests of president duda are somewhat different. i understand that he is adjusting to the party line, but meeting i think it is quite realistic to find an opportunity, uh, it is quite realistic in my opinion even before the elections well, and about the return of president zelensky well, if he i see a plane in ireland got off yes, i don't know what the route of the president's plane is, this is closed information well, i don't think so that he is on his way to ukraine. if so, then it would be possible to use sudan if we met in ireland. well, i understand that after ireland he flew to poland, and they already started in poland. yes

, he gave awards in lublin. there will be a meeting there. i hope what will happen, he met with duda, but not with anzhii duda, but met with damian duda, these are volunteers and a doctor who gathered a brigade of doctors to save our wounded soldiers on the front line and created a fund to help doctors, and volodymyr zelenskyy awarded it to valery ot you said that you saw the shadow of kachynsky, who is a piper and vitaliy sport, but you don’t attribute it to his base, there will be a scandal. well, what if all the other goals of akachynska are from the raft of this blood? behind their backs, who advised you, president zelenskiy, to say such words in the united states of america, naming some people who , er, play into the hands of russia, without naming these

people, but hinting at someone well, i don't think that this is a special writer in which we all know, who, by the way, is currently present as i see it in washington, i think, after all , take your time now, but the speeches of the president are determined, so all the deputy heads of the office, who is responsible for this and was authorized by the presidents' committee, were present there poland of ukraine from ukraine and he sat next to the president during president biden's speech. i think they were fine. they all heard president duda's speech and the tasks of this official . he had colleagues who worked together and i was in this position. he then, in principle , also performed a function in this area then he would suggest that it is necessary to uh here is wrong now let's think and we will not voice this paragraph and it is technically possible to feel, you know, there is no

such quick reaction to feel the situation under and edit and if this is a planned position ukraine's offensive against poland, if it is substantiated by the ministry of foreign affairs and the president's office, then it is wrong, because our priorities now are higher than security, even than the priorities of economic security, yes. if we have the right to say absolutely clearly that this is a planned position, if you are interested well then horror then horror i'm nothing then if you're right then believe me you could see it by the way from the presence of ukrainian e-e representatives at various conferences, a forum in poland, at an economic forum in karpacha, where i was just one will not be like that, one deputy from i about the fact that the un tribune is used for such a purpose, that is, the priority of an offensive position in

the direction of poland, there israel. we first attack and then we somehow look for a solution. we don't know what the results will be, but they are resting on positive thoughts, that is, but it can also boil over here, so that later on she can come to an agreement on other issues. i agree with you that sometimes it works , but the problem of ukraine is that what worked a year ago will not work today here is the question of whether conclusions were drawn after vilna themselves, nato has already demonstrated all this there , there was an attack on the usa, they directly tried in this style on the president of the usa and us. and conclusions were not drawn conclusions were not drawn that is why these tools must always

be used in specific conditions, to specific countries, well, poland is definitely not the country with which we need to start a conflict now , even if poland is profitable. politically, they can see that we cannot fall into this trap, but we hope that we will not fall into it, of course , we need to communicate somehow, because even now i look at the comments of our viewers, and already here, both ratio and emotion are mixed up, all in one heap, the government poland and the poles are getting mixed up and they are already forgetting about some kind of help there and all of it is being introduced , it must be said that we can really notice that many people in poland criticize the owner and the leadership for this position and this is now a really important topic of the election campaign of the polish it is possible that the leaders were condemned by the leader of the opposition, donald tusk, all the leading media are writing about the fact that poland made a mistake, that the party of law and justice is holding ukraine hostage

in its struggle for power, that is, poland said no, it is not right, the populist part of society looks at it in a completely different way than the ukrainians who say that there is no need to quarrel with poland, i.e. the attitude of polish democrats to the situation distinguishes retired ukrainians quite seriously, who rather end up defending a foreign state than their traditional one. by the way, we we remember, this has always been the case with russia. no, we have been doing this since last year. you know how many times we have supported president zelenskyi's position, which is so offensive. i'm just talking about something else, but you always have to think about what kind of resource you have. certain signals were given to poland that it is not possible to do this and aggravate the situation, to announce the cessation of military supplies there , they have already done so. i am talking about what if we do this in this style with poland, and after the elections in slovakia , then in slovakia, then in israel, we will do the same

to do so we somewhere er somewhere somewhere we'll slip somewhere no ot what's the matter or is it right here all the forces and resources of the country of the sentence i don't know about ukraine i know myself openly what i'm on i'm drawing attention well, we need to act in solidarity and protect the interests of ukraine if attack the poles i'm not talking about that, i'm talking about the fact that we can't give the opportunity to use it for their own internal purposes , just like in america, just like we are now, well , they also gave certain points there, that's what the matter is, that is, we have to find diplomatic steps are such that to jump out of such traps and not rush into it at the level of the president , that is, there are other means, and lunkachinsky is a peacemaker, he is a respectable person, a wise person. and why should our president immediately jump into this quarrel, that is, there are people here who should work it out

? influence, it is used very often in conflict situations, and that is why the image of the president and the country often loses because you are right, there are other views, but ukraine appears in this not as a country that unites, but as a ukraine that is divides the positions of political parties in america unites the democratic republic of ukraine and in poland this separation should be unifying, i disagree a little because this separation will have consequences after the elections and the situation tells me that the elections will end and everything is working out no no it will be much deeper and will go further, and then we still have other countries , the issue has already gone much further, the poles are telling the germans there, and the germans are telling the poles to lose the coalition of support the day before, the president already announced joining nato, our goal is -

washington summit next year , we are talking about something with them now. we can see what the circumstances are and what will happen next year, well, what awaits us is not easy , to put it mildly, the situation there until the summer. correctly arranged, you can exchange something with partners on the key issue of aid with weapons, aid in the war with russia and a security umbrella after the deoccupation of the territory, but on the other hand, this also requires mutual constructiveness. in principle , slovakia also agreed on the sale of grain after slovakia imposed restrictions negotiations took place , it seems that an agreement was reached with poland, it would also be possible to reach an agreement to hold bilateral talks, but everything began to slip from place

only at the moment when such an acute rhetoric well, let's agree, if you were real allies, prime minister marovetsky would certainly not have made a statement that we in poland were imposing a unilateral embargo, and consultations were held to invite the ukrainian side to a consultation of the specter of the situation that happened after russia's withdrawal from the black sea grain initiative and i would see this as a civilized step, i will not talk about the ukrainian leadership about its position now simply because ukraine, unlike poland, is at war and when the prime minister of a country that claims a special role in central europe communicates with allies in the language of a public rally, so it also says a lot about the country and its political elite about the state of society, but uh, i agree with you, but i didn't have these as an ally relations with poland, we do not have allied relations with any state in the world, we have strategic partnership relations , allies will be if we become members of the defense union, let's say nato. i will very briefly

remind you when president trump, if we were in we say that the usa immediately came to power and he declared about the spilling of various documents there, for example, he said that we owe them america, we owe those countries that help them financially in defense , saudi arabia, they must adapt to the economic interests of the united states , and it went so well in america, everyone applauded. everything was great until a certain moment, because demanding an exchange. let's talk about how we have it. we really protect poland, and poland understands this from the russian invasion, but the model does not work: we protect you, you protect us for you pay for the situation, it doesn’t work. therefore, i will say the first thing is that we understand me. the main thing is who spun this whole story, why did it become a conflict ? there are also certain beneficiaries of these supplies of grains, it didn’t

start with moravian, that’s why i’m not against it, i’m not he was not in the interests of his country and his government and his president at that time, but i will also say that there is a diplomatic toolkit that was created in order not to follow the ideas or strategies of other countries. i think 100% we could not allow the outcome of the conflict to such a level is 100%. and at least for e imagine the president of lithuania offers us mediation mediation is offered in such conflict situations that people can no longer talk to each other, it 's not like that, well, let's say frankly, it's not like that in our country, or i hope that it's not like that in our country, because to your comments, but vitaly, i see that it is probably more threatening than i even expect , that's why the institutional mechanisms are not working , they are not working, you need an appeal, i asked you about it, the public mechanisms of scientists

some public initiatives of ukraine and poland. i know that some things are being prepared for the security forum in warsaw on the third of october, but right now, time is running out. therefore, it is very necessary now. you said it was news to me. that there could be a meeting. well, if there is a bilateral meeting this will be a very good step, and further. it is necessary to remove this from the public discussion , well, even agree that there will be political discussions about this in poland, let them be, but in these conditions, transfer it to institutional foundations and at the same time submit by legal mechanisms, there is a sort of compensation for us to speak with the eu, but this is only a test. imagine what will happen when we negotiate on the agrarian vestment of the chapper . therefore, these are also lessons that are better not to take during the war. it is better to avoid them. thank you, mr. valery valery chalyi diplomat, former ambassador of ukraine to the united states and now we have igor samilov, director of the center for middle eastern

studies. congratulations igor, congratulations, congratulations. why can't we say for sure that everything is over in karabakh? a phase begins, some phase has ended, yes, that is, the conflict, the armed conflict is obviously over, of course, the conflict remains, that is, we conflict theorists know that it does not end, it transforms, who is he , nagorno-karabakh or what are they fighting in the end? the next conflict is short stepan ihor now i am reading electro until 9:00 p.m. i then i then i address the lecture er the conversation of mr. vitaly

with mr. pekhin he just a lot yesterday talked about it. well, he talked about it for an hour. yes, yes, and he said practically nothing , and everyone was offended. the cover-up of putin's orthogonal meeting, we saw that the escalation had already begun in the last few weeks before the start of this phase of the conflict, and it was clear that something was starting, the only thing i did not foresee was that the russian so-called peacekeepers would simply withdraw and leave, that was it well, it's hard to imagine, but that's how it happened, that is, in general, we can say that such an agreement was a pretext - it's a simple thing and

you can always find it, and then it was already a matter of technology. that is, i think that it was agreed, and you don't think that maybe the peacekeepers there were no such real opportunities in karabakh for them to be able to really oppose the azerbaijani army in the current conditions. well , i am not political. well they did not have a mandate, but moscow could call at any time and force everything to stop if a dangerous situation arose for russian peacekeepers. there it was as it was as it was agreed, but it was as it was, that is, nothing has changed from the point of view of those agreements that existed since

the 20th year, and moscow is still listening, but let 's not be too optimistic here that moscow has completely left the southern caucasus and that the situation there is very bad for it. i think they are trying to play and they would still be present. they are perfectly present in armenia. i think in this situation you will not try to play with azerbaijan, well at least i think that this story is not over there, even with the russian peacekeepers, in any case. according to the mandate, they are supposed to be there until the 25th year. that is, their presence will be there, and it is unlikely that azerbaijan will now insist on the withdrawal of these troops. well, it is a little early to talk about what there is no one in moscow

they are listening, they are listening just because they are not, not very attentively, let's say it in their ears, others are already starting to speak, and there is a resonance, but in principle, they are present, yes. and tell me, what do you think, azerbaijan absolutely clearly calculates that in the event of any escalation with moscow, if it exists at all, turkey will stand up for him someday, but armenia is exactly what they hoped for russia . true. the question arises here. how ready are these foreign players to fight, to fight realistically when it comes to the security of their allies in the caucasus? well, i think there is i absolutely agree with you, mr. vitaly, that if a critical situation arose between russia and azerbaijan, turkey would not have intervened . that is, it is understandable, because turkey always has the idea that it is impossible to fight with russia, it is necessary to negotiate, it is necessary to reconcile interests, and so on. and in general, this whole story with union of azerbaijan and turkey, it was only

directed against armenia, that is, armenia was a legitimate enemy here, and they perceived it as part of their actual mission, and even the issue with iran, in principle, i think that it can't be solved so easily and i'm afraid, i don't think that turkey, for example, will agree to fight in the morning, well, there is experience, er , well, first of all, turkey is unlikely to start a new conflict in turkey when it has not yet ended from the syrian conflict to a hot conflict, this is absolutely very dangerous, and secondly, after all, turkey is bound by certain obligations in nato, and thirdly, after all, iran is not armenia, therefore , the same question is here, that is, deter yes and no they can hardly fight. well, how much

do you think that, well, karabakh is understood - it is a part from the point of view of international law , it is part of the territory of azerbaijan with this. by the way, almost no one has ever argued with an armenian official even there, well, it has never been recognized as an independent state in armenia, everyone understood that something must be done to decide, but the sovereign territory of armenia itself, you allow a war between azerbaijan and the armenians, let's say for this corridor to them the feeling that goes there, i have a version a-a, but with er when this stage of the conflict began, he said we will not enter the war, otherwise we will lose our sovereignty. he said it for a reason, and it means that the azerbaijani troops were concentrated nearby, and i think that if the war had entered on the side of karabakh , armenia would have received a gift, but this did not

happen and in fact, i think that it is hardly possible to turn the situation back, that is , there will be no more war. there will be a visit to iran this week. what can it mean for us , by the way, during this war? hangs well, i think it's a coincidence. but yes, it's interesting. well, in principle, i don't see anything like that there yet, except for what already happened between russia and iran. yes, they showed him the weapons , told what they were, powerful questions. it 's the same. the question rests on missiles, yes, that is, whether early missiles will be supplied or not. as far as we know, all attempts to purchase missiles have not been unsuccessful, that is

, in the words of the israeli special services, this device was unsuccessful, and someone caused it, yes, that is, how minimum hindered therefore hmm, there will still be a conversation around this, that is, the russians need this weapon, and i think that the iranians would also be ready to sell it, but the iranians, in any case , need, if not the lifting of sanctions, then the easing of the sanctions policy, and therefore in this sense they won't be in a hurry. meanwhile, asat came to china for the first time since 2004. what does this mean? it means that china continues to dream about its project, one train, one road, and the series in this project can look quite attractive if there is, of course, when it will end.