[000:00:00;00] they said that, in principle, at that time they were talking about the future in the ssr, that then they said that ukraine did not want to be in the bloc with moscow, and that is why they wrote down such a formula, but the legislators, adopting the constitution, by the way, in which there was a compromise and crimea, that is, it was a document that was also accepted in moscow, no wonder, although it is our internal one, it was clearly written there that we are already renouncing this principle, and we chose the path of european euro-atlantic integration, but unfortunately , this passage was included in our proposal in march of last year in the draft agreement on the neutrality of ukraine, which the ukrainian side, as a working document, handed over to moscow, and there putin shows this passage about this declaration, this delusion must be covered, because i see that some even in the president's office at one time, i know, talked about this is mr. podalyak,

he is also somewhere like that. once said, only later refused , who taught them this phrase, let the lawyers say, smart ukrainian lawyers , that this is a delusion, that is why often such things do not start with the kremlin, but start, projectiles are raised by those who want the so-called restoration of relations with russia, even in conditions when tens of thousands of ukrainians have been killed, when there are acts of genocide, when all this is being considered in the world, and someone is still playing this game about that is why it is dangerous and we must look very carefully at the development of events in ukraine itself, and as for lavrov, he is, well, i haven’t seen in him for a long time the diplomat who was once in new york or conducted negotiations, he already works for this whole team as a rebentrope more than a diplomat, he is not the only one like him there, and i will say one thing the thing is, these are the narratives that they are preparing

professionally quite carefully, they cause harm, when it's all from the rostrum of the un, when it's all read, then some countries, small countries, countries that pay attention to their region, can buy into this, so-called, and hear such an interpretation, from him mixed truth with lies, all together, i can write against each phrase that it is a lie , but such an interpretation is now impossible, if he speaks in african, our diplomatic work must be constant in order to debunk all these constructions, because they are forming them very much, i will be honest, they are forming them professionally, they have switched to massive lies, and the gebersov version , which is very dangerous, you did not want to name it, i will name the initiators on july 16, well, in the end, our viewers have the right to know

, who initiated this sofia center was andrii... yarmalaeva, this is a person who was connected with medvedchuk, and i think that he is now in moscow, there were also diplomats, oleksandr chaly, and vasyl filipchuk, and honcharuk , if i'm not mistaken, that is, there were many people who signed this, no declaration, and this, this confusion, which declared a return to the declaration of state sovereignty, but you are absolutely saying that... no one said that ukraine will not be a non-aligned state from the point of view of the north atlantic alliance, because we have, in principle, in the 1990s, obviously, the biggest fear was the soviet return to the soviet union, and then the csto emerged, and then these structures called

the eurasian economic... labor evraz, and yes, very, very many structures, which they tried to drag us into all the time, that's why moscow diplomats are now trying to lie and talk about the fact that they said we gave some commitments there, that we will not join nato, although, you know very well, mr. valery, what for during kuchma's time, this process was quite active, and it was until 2000, before the so-called gongadze case and before the tape scandal, which actually, well, turned kuchma into a person who, to whom few people in europe gave a hand, because a ukrainian was killed journalist, and it was quite a big injury for the entire state that we received, and the russian federation simply took advantage of it, that is, we constantly tried to go to nato,

with the exception of the presidency, yanukovych. and the premiership, when he deliberately inflated balloons with his colleagues in the verkhovna rada of ukraine and pretended that we do not need nato, right? well, such a stratum is already historical, well, i will say briefly that the russians always tried to use any internal problems, having agent connections with the former kgb, and pulling on some strings, you know i have, well, regarding the gengaz case, she really returned a lot of things, but here the main thing that worries me is that georgy, and recently they celebrated this date, they mentioned the magazine' until now there is not a full stop to the no, but the russians have always created it, used it, i'll tell you, everything is much more complicated, the 1999 presidential election, there are nuances there, but the main thing is that everything is equal

in the country, no matter how the russians did it, up to the point that they put their people in key positions in ukraine, that is, about yanukovych, their minister of defense, the head of the sbu, that is, key positions on defense state, gave another country under control, well, now something similar is happening in belarus, so despite this, people in ukraine keep this course, and even when it comes to drastic actions, when european integration was stopped then, students came to the maidan , everything got so twisted that they were not allowed to go off this path, they are talking about what determines everything, as putin thinks, who came personally to campaign so that ukraine does not turn from this direction. for yanukovych, but there are objective processes, you will not return them, the people determine course, key, everything else, then the parliamentarians, there, the executive power, they can of course slow it down or speed it up, but there are such historical

periods when your chance, when you can jump on this train, and then you can stay for another decade, such a chance is now, and i do not see it in the future... a long enough period for us to still have such a chance, even more so it is not known how effective it will be in the future, so far we see that russia does not dare to attack nato countries , even in the 14th year they had a choice and had ideas, to play, let's say, with small countries, even nato members, they were sure that nato would not turn around then, would not do anything, and it is true, at that moment, i think that nato did not have time to do anything in 72 hours at all, but...' now is not the period anymore, therefore, this is our chance, and nato is not even a word here, just another defense structure, there is no effective security structure in europe, there is simply none, that is, therefore we have no choice, or

we are on our own in all directions keep the defense with external help, but it is unrealistic for us, we will not develop then, in any way, that is why i believe that collective defense is the only way for ukraine, we have to share this responsibility with others, so i say once again that no matter what kirmanychi did, they did not succeed in any way to stop this path, it is objective, it is historical, ukraine is returning to europe not only politically , there culturally, geographically, but still also in terms of security, i am sure that it will happen, 100% it will happen, but to speed it up is a challenge for of today's government, well, actually for those who can affect the situation, because during the last year and a half, even more, a year and seven months, the world is trying to suppress, suppress the russian federation with sanctions and create conditions under which the russian federation will feel what sanctions are, through

an aggressive policy regarding ukraine, here suddenly the financial times writes that russia managed to avoid sanctions on most of its oil exports, the publication writes that this year the income of the russian federation... from oil will amount to at least 15 million dollars more than it could be, well, that is, despite everything, russia is in different ways, it is not about some white and correct schemes, it uses gray and black schemes in order to sell its oil, and there are countries that buy this oil and in different ways russian oil, what the world, in what way' can still screw up this crazy gas station, which is the russian federation, in what way to deprive them of resources, which they then reinvest in weapons, in which they then

reinvest in aggression against other states? the only way, in such conflicts when the country resolves the conflict, then the sanction that should be is an embargo, it is a complete ban on imports. from this country, as they did with iran, why didn't they do it now, well, because the un did not make a joint decision, well , russia is blocked without the council, and because of this. this, these sanctions, they do not correspond to the violation of international law, the un charter, which russia has committed, this is the first reason, and therefore they have not been introduced at the required level. what is not introduced, well here already, when there is no un decision, each country starts its own to look at the interests, and we already know that hungary, which is a member of nato

and the eu, has a special position there, other countries want to catch. in this situation in the murky water, which is called, well, there are still gaps, but the main thing is, look, when they tell me that all the big global investment funds, well, those that invested in gazprom, in rosatom, have completely left russia, then i can say that there are, well, certain benchmarks of understanding with the economy, and if they are still working with resatom, if there are still... there are companies working in russia, if still there are opportunities for russia, and there will probably be even more, in other directions, even dumping, or so i agree with the dumping price, but to survive in the coming years, because putin has put security, the issue of security, this is the number one priority, they will climb in the pockets of every citizen, even, well, i won't.

they will be satisfied with this, if even they have a famine somewhere in the russian regions, but they will still do it, we see, in north korea, how it is happening, and russia can follow this path, therefore it will exhaust russia, but in such plan, as they say, until the definition of war, well, i think that this, let's say so, is a very dubious idea, it can be exhausted, of course, but will it allow the possible... to convince them of their mistakes and for them to leave in the military plan, i i don’t know, the territory is large, and therefore the sanctions policy, it should either be introduced now as much as possible, for which no one is ready, or it must be said honestly that all hopes are now placed on the front, well, this is not the best option, because from the very beginning , particularization was supported precisely by sanctions,

plus a gradual increase, so now you you are right, this is such a challenge, there have been no packages for a long time, the usa periodically does its thing, canada is active, the seven, the european union will try to do it despite all the problems, but there is no isolation of russia and no common sanctions pressure, china, india, first of all, brazil, latin america gives russia the illusion that it is possible to safely trade there somewhere else. ago. unfortunately, this is a statement of facts, there is no embargo, there is such a result. against this background, over the past few days, we have seen tensions in relations between poland and in ukraine, in an interview with superexpress, andrzej duda, the president of poland said the following, after zelensky's speech at the un general assembly. i was surprised that this essentially insignificant dispute, regarding, it is implied, the export of... ukrainian grain, was raised by him from the podium

of the un general assembly, however, in my speech i was 100% focused on the topic of security, the principles of international law , and in this sense i stood for ukraine, which is fighting, i believed and still believe that the issue of the grain dispute is only a part relations between poland and ukraine, which is , so to speak, only a reflection of the difficult situation in which ukraine found itself, in which we have been helping it for more than a year and a half, i do not hide the fact that the transfer of bilateral disputes. to the public tribunal in the presence of 200 countries was received with regret, many people in poland felt offended, poles, both the state authorities and ordinary people, sacrificed a lot to help ukraine, many even risked their lives, they went to help was brought to ukraine, some even traveled to front, not to mention the millions of people who put their homes and apartments at the disposal of our ukrainian guests, i think that many of them are very much affected by this situation today. mr. valery

, please explain to me, ukraine was legally right when it exported grain to poland, that is, since september 15, the poles simply introduced restrictions on ukrainian grain. we, we did not violate the legislation, all-european and those norms that were adopted by the european commission? i don't want to go into it. although i understand what happened there from the very beginning the beginning, i want to say, because this is a long story and it was accumulating, if we start talking about who was more to blame, well, i will stand on the side of the ukrainian position, of course, but i will say this, when the president of poland tells a specific person about the speech at general assembly, he tells the real facts , he really spoke for the ukrainian president before and he really expressed all the issues related to security, support for ukraine, opposition to the russian war against ukraine, yes,

he built this speech only on this, instead, the president of ukraine put this passage, without truth. mention of poland, but it was read there, the countries were read there, in principle, and he compared it with a possible match for moscow there. i think it was wrong, first of all in the tone of this kind of pandering to moscow, and secondly, in terms of the place of the announcement from the oongin rostrum of the assembly, well, it was completely inappropriate, we have other ways to do it, although the second part , what president duda is saying now worries me. i heard such a phrase that the poles that's how they help ukraine, purely, from their own, well, let's say that this is charity, and human relations, well, excuse me, the truth is that ukraine with its lives closes the lives,

saves the lives of poles, ukrainians with poles, well, not in such a number, but there are volunteers, poles, indeed. but there are not so many of them, but ukrainians die for poland, ukrainians die so that the poles do not die, and starting to compare who did what is a bad story, we must act together both in defense and in the situation of economic support, financial, what poland actually did and is doing, and why did we succumb to this trap, which, to be honest, was promoted more by the polish leadership, well, i can show you on my fingers why, why they did it, and it is not because of the elections only, no only because of the elections, now such a period is approaching, it is very dangerous, so as not to start counting who gave more to whom, this is unacceptable in our relations with poland, we are closer than ever, it would be right for us to sign the

alliance agreement now, to remove these questions, and we we are moving into a kind of conflict, that is why there are many reasons, but if we both do not put the issue of security as a key priority and do not compete in the accuracy of wording at the official level, there the prime ministers declare, or there the presidents say what their speechwriters substitute, then it will be better, because our relations with poland will always be difficult, they will not be rosy there, they will be such a combination of rivalry. sometimes, as now, of maximum partnership in joint opposition to russia, sometimes of conflict, and the task of precisely institutional interstate mechanisms, we have a committee of presidents, there are other diplomatic tasks, you know, to reduce problems, not exacerbate them, so i think that everything will be

fine, not least because it will end after the election day in poland, although, i think it will help, but...' due to the fact that we will constantly keep on the pulse of the importance of the common security position, we have a joint brigade together with the lithuanians, this is such a close cooperation that we do not have with other countries, we have already talked about an alliance agreement, here suddenly back from rollback, and those who are responsible for it today should set their priorities correctly, in fact, then everything will be sorted out , economic interests must be protected, i’ll just say, well, i just don’t want to get into this area, but there are a lot of solutions, and why such a from our side, we fell into this trap, which is clear for the poles there is an escalation now , and they honestly say, you can wait, but we say some things, well, by the way, just like in the usa,

i was told that it is not about when you were called there, ukraine interfered in the elections, there was a russian special operation, this is all wrong you. this is our internal matter, we are between republicans and democrats, no, it harms, it harms the long-term plan of relations between nations, so i think that here we need to transfer many issues from the public sphere to the sphere of institutions, we have a lot created with poland, to restore, by the way , the communication of scientists and the two-way structure that previously worked on cultural history, that is, all these things must be translated into this dialogue. by the way, polish president andrzej duda said that warsaw is ready to ensure the transit of ukrainian grains through polish territory, for their further shipment to the poorest african countries. according to duda, special transit corridors have been prepared, thanks to which ukrainian grain can be transported through the territory of the country and further exported to where

it is really needed, well, well, it was not possible to do everything at once, so, well, this discussion, which is now continues and it continues, i think that in the polish media, they will be for quite a long time, well, at least one more month before the parliamentary elections, they will definitely will scroll through this topic... and the poles have different attitudes to it there , it is clear that the ruling party will try to use some kind of pressure to push this topic, but for us the most important thing is our future in the european union and our future in nato, and it turns out that this whole story with grain raises a lot of questions not only in relations with poland, in relations with slovakia, with the czech republic. and hungary here says that ukraine does not support, hungary does not support

ukraine's position at any international level forum, as orban said, until kyiv returns the rights to the transcarpathian hungarians, well, that is, i understand that the final, the final points, our competitions for the eu and for nato will definitely be difficult, given our, well, there are some permanent . relations with our neighbors, how, how to overcome it, how to avoid it, how to reconcile all these positions, because i think that in the first case, and in the second case, hungary will take certain steps that are not acceptable for us , let's separate, the eu and nato are in many ways, well one direction, but from the point of view of mechanisms, different things, regarding nato membership, poland is interested in our membership and these countries and slovakia, they are interested because we will then cover their eastern flank, that is, they

are lobbying for our interests, so nato is realistically, the eu will have much more disputes, but now the negotiation process will open, i hope, there are more than 30 chapters, i.e. negotiating sections, and there is an agrarian one, it is very difficult, at one time poland in brussels cut out quotas for itself and was very harsh with others farmers, the french then they spoke, the germans spoke harshly, but poland advanced, now they will stop us, the same, it is obvious, that is why it will be more difficult in the eu, and it is a longer way, how to solve with grain, well, restore transportation by sea, that is all, and then there won't be these nuances, and in general, you won't be able to fully control the business so that it is profitable for everyone there, yes, there will always be questions, this is a benefit, so guarantee that only transit will not affect the situation in these countries, well, it was logical

that something would slip out sooner or later, but the reason russia, which has blocked such direct supplies to ukraine, and businessmen are forced to look for such ways, which are much more expensive, so i see the way now gradually, that transit by sea is being restored without russian decisions, and it is gradually being restored, if they strengthened control over this fairways and the coastal zone, including aviation there and so on, i think that then the issue would be resolved, that is, there is a solution, in the long term, i do not know which nato countries will take which position, because this is a democracy, today orbán is in hungary, and tomorrow he is gone, syayarta together, although they think that he will rule there forever, they have already declared, well, this is democracy, this is not russia or china for you, yes,

that is, you are hungary after all, and you receive funds of the european union, no one will allow you to hold power there for life, authoritarian, that is why i look at the attitude of the people, the attitude of the people in hungary , hungarians are mainly focused on deepening, in principle of interaction, result, politicians there from time to time promote this topic of leaving the european union for themselves, well, that's where they want to attract the electorate is so more radical, but this is a game, by the way, the parties are also very close in poland now, so any issue must be dragged into them in order to gain interest, uh, well, in principle , there is one more point in all this , we must understand that time changes , today's situation can... be different tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow will be different, therefore, historical time, it is like that, it gives some kind of opportunity, or

takes it away, and it would be very correct not to dwell on it. time now, and you have to negotiate with the neighbors, there are mutual interests, generally with with poland, i would unite as much as possible in whatever way possible, in order to remove any later talk about competition, well, i would start with the security sphere, a joint defense agreement, or maybe an agreement with britain for three, poland, ukraine , britain, this would be the solution, and then, believe me, everything took a back seat, alas, for its promotion, the party is working today. well , i chose arguments in a slightly different plane, but it would be possible , in general, with such an agreement, i think, to immediately take a handicap of five percent in front of the pursuers, well, they decide for themselves, it is the sovereign right of the poles to do so, but i emphasize that as close as we have come from two countries, we have never had such relations and must be valued, these hugs

will not last forever, if there is no internal conviction of the two peoples in in a common goal and cooperation, well, obviously, when you talk about this chance and this corridor, which is important to go through now and do everything we need to do, don't you have some kind of feeling that from ukraine, in the world slowly starting to get tired or are these simply misleading impressions, well, in particular, zelsky was not allowed to speak in the congress there, he wanted, as i understand it, to speak, the speaker of the house of representatives said that, in principle, he is no longer the president of the united states of america, what should he do there ? well, the statement was not very correct, but our submission that we will speak before two chambers for the second time in nine months was unrealistic, that is, it is not accepted in

the capitalist hills, well, two speeches in one year, well, especially. of course, but like that the situation was also in israel at the time, and our presidents spoke, so i would take it calmly, and it would just be necessary so that it would not become public, work in such a way as to probe the soil, and then it would not have to be heard publicly. regarding fatigue from ukraine, it is not fatigue from ukraine, it is fatigue from the inability to respond adequately to russian actions, to the russian war, to russian aggression, to russian aggression, and of course, resources are flowing more and more, that is, it is not for ukraine, they they should be happy that there is still such a country, which in principle played the game joint game and contributed to it, it could have been completely different, but now it's more like this , well, natural fatigue from what is certain,

maybe, well, it's not freezing, but some kind of stagnation. it's in this situation, ukrainians don't feel it, rockets fly to us every day, whether in odesa, or in kyiv, or in lviv, all over ukraine, and i don't envy those who are closer to the russian border, there are generally people there and in kharkiv, and in the sumy region, and kherson, zaporizhia are constantly under fire, but for us it is daily, but for the world, you know, it is like that, but it is not going anywhere is going nowhere, so of course it must be understood, but... we will never take it for granted that proposals to freeze the war will lead to a just peace. thank you, thank you, mr. valery, the time of our program is coming to an end. thank you for the interesting conversation, it was valery chaly, politician, diplomat, extraordinary plenipotentiary ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019. friends, we work live on the tv channel and on our platforms, in social networks,

keep watching us, i wish you all the best the best take care of yourself and your family, goodbye, congratulations, on bbcnew ukraine, in the studio in london, jafer umerov, today in the program we are talking about the consequences of the conflict in nagorno-karabakh, and why russia decided not to intervene? refugees from nagorno-karabakh leave for armenia after azerbaijan took control of the region. the last karabakh war continued. a little more than a day and led to the surrender of the unrecognized republic, neither the kremlin nor russian peacekeepers prevented this. and refugees from nagorno-karabakh began to arrive to