[000:00:00;00] dear voters, you heard what serhii said, that's how you will know who, look carefully, covered it all up, for the benefit of the enemy, serhiy milman, founder of the yukontrol company, thank you, we will talk about iran next time, i would like to meet with you more often in broadcasts , because the topics are very urgent in fact, thank you, it is now on our broadcast, then our colleagues will pick it up, roman and i will return in the afternoon. glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, i greet everyone and wish everyone good health, today in the program. revenge for destroyed energy. in the russian city of kursk , an electric substation caught fire due to a drone strike. the occupiers must leave zaporizhia atomnaya, which means the resolution

of the magat immediately. the return of the armed forces to the control of ukraine and how to put it into practice? deterrence aid, why the west is not prepared for the collapse of russia and how it affects the course of the war? putin again bet on wagner. the fighters of the communist party of ukraine have returned to ukraine, and their leader is forming dobrobats. we will talk about this and other things for the next hour with our guests, this is the former deputy of the state duma of the russian federation, ilya ponomarov. and people's deputy of ukraine sofya fedina, for those who are watching us live on youtube, i offer a survey, today we ask you about the following: do you support the legalization of weapons in ukraine, yes, no, or your option, please write in your comments, and before we start our conversation with ilya ponomarov, let's see how

cotton was on fire today in russian. again something begins, just tin, wrinkles just appear. i want to invite our first

guest to the conversation, this is ilya panomarov, ex. state duma of the russian federation, mr. illa. good evening and welcome to our broadcast. good evening, zelensky announced that ukraine joined the magathe council, and what resolution this international organization praised, we will tell after we hear what zelensky said about the magathe council and russia's participation in this organization. there is also a result at the magate site. ukraine entered the member of the board of governors of this organization of the international atomic energy agency. and this not only emphasizes our international security role, but also gives ukraine real opportunities to influence the adoption of decisions that are binding for all members of the magat, for the entire international community. we will do everything to implement the first point of our peace formula,

the nuclear and. safety and guarantee the complete liberation of our zaporizhia nuclear power plant, and the general assembly of the magat adopts a resolution regarding the occupiers, the russian occupiers, who are at the zaporizhia nuclear power plant, and calls for the immediate return of the zaporizhzhia os to the control of ukraine, russia should leave there. mr. illa, what will happen if russia does not leave there, and this resolution of the magathe, the international organization that monitors the peaceful atom, is not carried out, well, i think it is quite obvious that no one will leave, and that the exceptional ones must be eliminated , this is the only possible way, well, when it happens, well , of course there will be a resumption of the operation of this nuclear

plant, which is not huge in europe, well , it may affect the sanctions in this case regarding rosatom, we know that this organization is engaged in the construction of nuclear power plants both in europe and in turkey , power plants, one is being completed, one is planned to be built, we do not see effective sanctions against rosatom, and therefore it is clear that it is not clear for russia , what motivation should they have in order to leave zaporizhia as , can sanctions against rosatom and the cancellation of contracts for the construction of nuclear power plants still force russia to leave zaporizhia as and leave it as a strategic object of ukraine? well, first of all, i think that it is very unlikely that it will affect the policy of the russian, because it will not be done inside the russian, actually, inside

the kremlin, and there, there is an occupied territory, a nuclear plant is located on this occupied territory, well, that’s it, let’s go there, work , - the second, i think. that it is very unlikely that the international society will apply any effective sanctions against russia, because many things are interconnected there and the supply of uranium from the russian federation to various countries of the world and very influential countries of the world is quite ongoing, i believe that they are not will risk these supplies. as we can see now, prosatom is trying to do everything possible to look, well, at least decent there, and they allow inspections by the iaea at the nuclear plant, but

of course everything is done in their own way and the nuclear danger does not decrease, there is a lot more mines there time, mr. illa, well, we have seen over the past year and a half... how the world is watching nuclear blackmail, nuclear terrorism of the russian federation, perhaps not for the first time that russia and a state are seizing other people's nuclear power plants, threatening the whole world, a nuclear weapon, which before that was an ordinary peaceful atom. in your opinion, how the security system in the world should change from now on, well, that is, it can happen at any time. country, some neighboring country, or a group of people calmly seizes a nuclear power plant, threatens to blow it up, mines it, that is, in the execution of the same taliban or other

organizations there, obviously the participants and initiators of this terrorist act would simply be destroyed. well, first of all, other countries simply do not believe that russia will use the zaporizhia nuclear power plant there and any other nuclear plants as actually nuclear weapons, they understand that even , well, real nuclear weapons, yes, atomic bombs, even they are safer from the point of view of radiation safety than nuclear plants, well , for example, chernobyl, it's a lot says, and if they are used, then the entire territory around the zaporizhzhia nuclear plant will not be able to live there for many years to come, and that is why they simply do not believe in it, they believe more in the fact that

some kind of incident may happen there, there something something unexpected, something unexpected, not calculated and that because of this a nuclear disaster could happen, but the fact that russia would do it there deliberately, they simply do not believe and they need to be convinced that now the enemy is such that he can do anything, a few days ago , the minister of defense of russia, does not know, does not know when, i believe that more and more representatives of the russian elite, they understand that only a change of power, only a change of this regime, is the only way to end the war, even a complete military defeat, on the territory of ukraine, there is the liberation of the territory of ukraine, in the event that putin remains at the head of the russian federation, if at all the russian federation will be preserved, in the way

it exists now, then the war will continue, well, the front line will simply be along the border , and rockets will fly, that is, only a change of power, it is not clear what will happen to russia in 2025, but it is possible to diagnose what is happening in russia now, how would you characterize the current state of the russian federation today? yes, they are there now. all such greedy people, they are just waiting for what will happen next, there are ordinary citizens , they simply do not believe that they can influence the situation in any way, but even the elites also do not understand what they can do now, and they are there, waiting , when the americans force ukraine to sit down at the table, negotiate and end this war, they do not believe in the victory of russia, but they

are not yet fully convinced of the defeat, of the defeat of their country, they still hope that there will be some kind of collective action, he will put pressure on ukraine and us to some kind of compromise come on, well, they don’t understand that this is impossible, if in moscow they are waiting for the western powers to convince ukraine that it is necessary to give in to russia, then of course we are waiting for the west and the nato countries to somehow accelerate the fall of the putin regime, because according to your observations and your feelings, do the western countries, the russian federation, want defeat, and if so, in what form, it is clear that no one wants ukraine to lose, but does the west want russia to... lose, well you you say it right,

no one wants ukraine to lose, but no one understands what it is, the defeat of russia , what will happen after, and everyone there is very worried because of this, because no one wants the disintegration of russia, because they believe that if there is a disintegration, then china will take over, the east will take over, there will not it is not clear what will happen with nuclear weapons, they are not even afraid of many new nuclear countries there, they are afraid that, nuclear, the devices themselves, they will spread around the world, that is the main factor of danger, but the main thing, well that this is just bureaucracy, these are such ordinary bureaucrats who are afraid to take risks, they they want to help ukraine, which is taking risks, but they do not want to take any risk there.

and ukraine is not saying anything now about how this war will end and some vision of the future, well, i believe that in the future, and we are not talking about years, but about months, such a vision, it must be will appear and then everything will be fine, regime change is the only thing that will suit... ukraine, this is the only thing that can stop the war. you mentioned china, about their desire, or their future, which they see themselves there in the east, in the far east of the russian federation, this thesis that the collapse of russia, or the ungovernability of russia, will lead to the capture of part of the territories of the russian federation, which are rich in natural

resources. and this can increase the potential of china and make china much stronger than it is now, because a lot of resources that the russian federation, due to various reasons , cannot yet process in siberia, can reach there, the chinese, what do you think - he is more afraid of the west, the ungovernability of russia as such, nuclear... which is not clear where will it end up and in whose hands will the strengthening of china end up, but if you could put it first, second and third, how would you rank these fears, well, look, first of all i want to say that it is clear, i i believe that all these fears are delusions, that they are just explaining themselves, why they do not take a more frank and active position, but... if we actually set

priorities, then for sure the number one will be nuclear weapons, nuclear proliferation, proliferation of nuclear devices, and secondly, this is it it will be china, but the strengthening of china, it can happen not only through the seizure of territory, but simply through economic influence , and economic influence, of course, if russia at all... will be weak, then china’s influence on siberia and the far east, of course, it will be reinforced. here it is simply necessary, it is necessary to make certain advantages there, advantages there with japan , there with south korea, there with another. mr. ilya, what do you think you can do to close the finalization of the russian-ukrainian war, but in the direction of ukraine, of course, because moscow also wants the finalization of the russian-ukrainian war, but it is clear that their main requirement is that the new territorial reality in

ukraine be recognized in the world, so that ukraine does not have prospects in nato. if we take the finalization of russian-ukuk. war on the part of ukraine, what about the west, what can speed up this finalization, long-range weapons, expulsion of the occupiers from crimea, or the internal political situation in russia itself? well, of course, there are any internal political changes in russia, they will be very accelerated due to one or another military defeat there, and i believe that when the ukrainian army is in crimea, this will become this is the beginning of fundamental changes in the russian federation, but if there are no changes in the russian federation, then the war will not stop, and that is why it is necessary, first of all, to create a political alternative, to create it, in the middle of ukraine, in europe,

to demonstrate to the elites what will happen instead of putin, and for this political alternative to be pro-ukrainian, of course. about the winners, and secondly, to create and settle a force that can put military pressure on russia, and this is exactly where the legion of freedom of russia and other russian units that will be part of of the ukrainian army, but which can influence the situation inside. over the past year and a half, i have seen and observed many forums of the russian opposition, they were different forums. someone perceives you, someone does not perceive someone, you perceive someone, someone you do not perceive, it is very difficult to understand in general who the opposition is in russia, whether there is any at all, and whether russia is even possible without putin, well, there was once such an action, ukraine without kuchma , but what

would russia be like without putin, because next to us lives an obsessive neighbor, he is killing us, he wants to destroy our state, it is not clear, we need to understand. and what to do with these obsessive neighbors? well, look, first of all, the opposition there can only be the one that holds weapons, that supports those who hold weapons and who use these weapons, that's all, there is simply no other opposition, because well, forums are not about anything, but, after how the change of power will take place, of course you need to... have a vision, and exactly what you said, you need to have a vision of the future country, which will be safe, friendly, which will be de-imperialized, in which there will be no more colonies, and which will be part of the international community, it must

be created, and this is exactly what we are doing now , it will eat people's deputies, like this political alternative, which will make new laws, new... rules of the game inside russia , the russian freedom legion, which is the same military unit, the partisan movement in the middle of russia, which is changing the government, you already mentioned crimea, and we started talking about it, in an interview with radio liberty in 2014, you said that the russian crimea will be and that crimea is a part russia, and i'm talking about you, i'm talking about you, i'm going to quote you, sorry, er, you said this, i believe that crimea should be part of russia, that it is russian land, i have no doubts, not about the legitimacy of the last referendum, well, that is, these are yours, your quotes from radio liberty, maybe i’m wrong, maybe radio freedom is wrong, no, the first sentence, it’s not mine, it

, it, someone, someone added it, i’m there for sure, the exact quote was that there must be crimea and wants to be there in russian, but now the international law is violated, that if the viv created there is real referendum and everything else, then it could be taken into account, but now that it is impossible , this was the full quote that i said then , well, there would be certain illusions, of course, there, everyone, everyone thought that there in fact, there is some kind of movement, i lived there inside russia, then ... there it is clear that this is not so, but the fact that crimea is ukraine, well, i had no such, such doubts in any way, well, then they are something wrong you were quoted, because i read it today, i voted against, against alexima,

of course, this means that there was a position, was thought out, i took a huge risk from that point of view, precisely because i believed that the crimea was ukrainian, and i had no such doubts, can you now say that the crimea is an achilles' heel putin's family, and the more the ukrainians hit this achilles' heel, the more they desacralize putin in russia itself, because putin is a king, a god, there is also a person who increases territories and collects lands, well, of course, he is this he started this war, and he made this, this, this event, the return to the native harbor, as he said there, and that is why the loss crimea, of course, that this is in the eyes of the russians, and in the eyes of the russian elite, it will determine that... the war is finally lost, that is very important, it will

definitely affect his fate. that is, you still predict that russia will be left with nothing and it will simply be expelled from the crimean peninsula, well, in some medium-term perspective, it is difficult to talk about it now, but that crimea will be ukrainian and the russian invaders will simply flee from there. as during any wars the occupiers fled to the sea and sank their ships there, what would this scenario be repeat? i am sure that crimea will return to ukraine, and i am also sure that crimea will return to ukraine before donbas returned there, when putin began the invasion on february 22nd, he actually signed this sentence, and if before that it was possible there to talk about some kind of compromises, transitional periods, all that other stuff, but now,

it's out of the question, and crimea will definitely be lost to russia and will return to ukraine. yesterday, mr. illa, tokayev, the president of kazakhstan was in berlin and during a meeting with olaf scholz, he said that that kazakhstan supports the decision of the eu regarding sanctions against the russian federation for its aggression against ukraine and will not allow them to be circumvented, today he assured that his country firmly adheres to the course of comprehensive cooperation with moscow and is not anti-russian, this is what tokayev said yesterday , can we say that sidjinpin spoke through tokayev's mouth, i believe that probably not, kazakhstan has always had a three-vector foreign policy, one vector was cooperation with russia, another cooperation with china, and the third cooperation with

the west, first of all with the united states, and it was a tradition that was established even by nazarbayev, and tokayev continues it, that is , actually there are sanctions against russia, they will not create, but circumvent these sanctions. through kazakhstan, they will also try, well i think it's fair to try so that this doesn't happen, they don't want to put themselves at risk, they don't want to put at risk the foreign investments that kazakhstan receives and on which they depend, well of course china, china will be happy with any outcome of this war. if russia wins, they will go to taiwan. and well, this will go unpunished, of course, and if russia loses, then they, as we have already

discussed with you, will strengthen their influence on the very important natural resources of siberia, and they will also be interested in this, well, according to you, putin will be clever what takayev promises the germans, kazakh oil, and russia is losing this market, and understand. that for putin now he simply has no other choice but to accept it, because tokayev is one of the members of the csto and, in general, the entire post-soviet space, which is drawn to putin, or at least communicates with him in some way and creates this illusion of international relations, close international relations, it's just that putin had no other way out, if it had been there three or four years ago, then russia would probably have included much more opportunities to curb tokayev , well, putin formulated this principle a long time ago, there is russian, likes, dislikes, tolerable is

beautiful, well, what else will he have left, well, he can now start a new war, even a trade war with kazakhstan, he has there with one front, there are huge problems to create, to create navies, he is there now, as soon as he loses armenia there, he will also lose all of central asia, because the loss of kazakhstan will determine the loss of all of central asia, simply from geography. point of view, so he will be patient , there is nothing more, nothing more remains, today putin was shown in a video where he talks with the former chief of staff of the wagner group, retired colonel andriy troshev, and he entrusts him with the formation of volunteer units. let's see how it was. on

at the last meeting, we talked about the fact that you will be engaged in formation. volunteer units that can perform various combat tasks, first of all, of course , in the zone of a special military operation, you yourself fought in such a unit for more than a year, i think, you know what it is, how it is done, you know, questions, which need to be decided in advance so that the combat work goes on in the best and most successful way, and troshev, i know for sure whether it ended for his predecessors, his predecessors in wagner, and yours, putin's efforts to once again create some informal, or let's say, extra-military structures, why is he constantly drawn to the creation of such structures, he finances them anyway from the state budget, the world has long known that wagner is part of

a large system, he is all he is trying to imitate some volunteers there, some good... corps, he pours billions of rubles or dollars there, what is this for him, no, well, he has now appointed the chief liquidator, it is not that wagnero will continue to exist there, there was a deputy there minister of defense of russia, that is, it is a procedure of liquidation, transfer of property, transfer of people, and guaranteeing that... vagder will no longer recover, this is exactly what mr. troshenko will do, it is not the preservation of vagdar, on the contrary, that is, you mean that the history of by wagner, it ended with the fact that they just started to torture the eyes of the cemeteries in concrete, the wagnerites who died in ukraine, just to erase them from the history of russia, of course, they will

try to forget it and forget the very memory of it. handsome was a man who was very confidence in mr. putin, and putin, there entrusted certain very important tasks , to mr. prigozhin, there is no such person now, nobody knows him, and he is unknown to putin himself, that is, he will only have a military role there. er, for all those people who have at least some value for the military, for them to be integrated into the ministry of defense, and that's all, that's exactly what he will do, thank you, mr. illa, for your participation in the program, it was ilya ponomav, former deputy of the state duma of the russian federation, friends, we are working live

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