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the possibility of personal communication with the espresso team. click sponsor and become part of the community with a ukrainian perspective. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already approached the serpent himself. the following shots may shock you. news from the scene. live kamikaze drone attacks. political analytics, objectively and meaningfully. there is no political. exclusive interviews, reports from the hottest points of the front. freedom life frankly and impartially. you draw your own conclusions. greetings, my name is andriy saichuk, and today we will talk with andriy kurkov, a writer. mr. andriy, good day to you.

actually, mr. andrii asked you to introduce him as a writer , and this, you know, is modesty, it’s not the greatest chastity in the modern world, but i think it ’s still worth adding that mr. andrii, for sure one of the most famous ukrainian writers, in particular abroad, and well, there is this, there is this, well, there is this, well, this is this is a fact, and probably, actually, that is why the voice of mr. andriy is very often heard in this way, as well as in border, and this is exactly the topic i wanted to dwell on today, this topic is not easy, it is the topic of how we work with russian soft power, the soft power that exists, which acts simultaneously both in the whole world and in the to ukraine, i would like to analyze this story a little, in particular the story that recently had such a resonance and had such a certain even

scandalous, let's put it this way... sosok, in which, in which mr. an andriy kurkov also took part, this topic seems to me to be none the less important, it really needs to be discussed, in my opinion, mr. andriy, are you comfortable talking about it's comfortable for me. but i feel comfortable talking about everything, i would start with the fact that , are we now, in principle, reaching such an understanding that we must speak on any platforms, on any topics, including talking about russians , including talking about ukraine, even where there are also russians those present, what is your actual position, i will just briefly remind you of the background, this is the story when you agreed to meet on the same platform with masha hessen, she is already an american citizen, as far as i know, but, uh, a russian journalist who, you know,

masha gesen, an american citizen since 1981, oh, this, this. it's fair to say, it seemed like five years to me, and she was already an american citizen, well, good for him, although, for her, no, for for them, i know that she's not a binary person, right a long time ago, so it's also important not to get confused with the correct representation here, uh, i know that your colleagues have been quite, some, your colleagues have reacted quite harshly to your decision, and i know that you've already explained why you didn't... from this meeting and this conversation on the same platform, can you tell me why? well, you know, the situation that happened in may of this year, in new york, it was really unpleasant and unacceptable for the ukrainian participants

. artem cheh, artem chapai, as well as our writers, came to speak at the new york festival organized by peno, an american, they knew and agreed that the moderator would be masha gesyn, but they did not know that the organizers decided to, that is, to invite to this panel two more russian political emigrants, one historian and one journalist, and then, when they found out, the ukrainian participants... the servicemen said that they were not allowed by the ministry of prohibition to speak with the russians, instead of the servicemen, they said that if they will perform on the panel with russians, then they will not be allowed back to ukraine, ugh, and thus

the organizers took the meeting with russians outside the festival, it took place in a smaller format and with a different audience, the ukrainian participants performed by themselves, without russians, masha hesen reacted emotionally and not very correctly, that is, she resigned from the post of vice president of the american pen club, pen center and somewhere in the comments she said that ukrainian writers are very cruel to ee russians, to the opportunity to speak with russians, eh and in in principle, after that she was finished in ukraine, my ukrainian colleagues, and that is why there was a reaction to the fact that i agreed to speak with her, especially since she was constantly accused of saying in her interviews everywhere that this is a war

putin, not the war of the russians, ugh, well, in principle, the choice was this, either they will talk about ukraine, without, er, ukrainians and in this case without my participation, or i will participate and will, if i disagree, about it say, well indeed, during the meeting, she repeated this thesis, eh, that this is putin's war, i explained and argued why this is a war between russia and the russian people, not putin, she publicly agreed , in the end, that i was right, er, and that is, the transcript of this conversation is in ukrainian on the internet, a journalist from babel was present at the meeting, she all recorded, then took a short interview with me, and after that i got what

i got, and that's why, on the lviv forum, my recorded video dialogue with jonathan franzsen was canceled, huh. which was supposed to open the lviv forum, that is, you are not present at the lviv forum precisely because of this, i'm not there, yes, do you think it's unfair? i am nothing i think that now it makes no sense to evaluate what is happening, but there is, that is, it was a demand of the community that was satisfied, and in principle, if the community is satisfied with this result, then everything is fine, let's talk about this position again , your opinion is that if we do not sit in the same space with the russians and do not talk, including about us and about them, then in fact we simply give them this platform. i'm not saying you should to speak with russians, with all russians and so on, that is, for america, masha hessen is

not russian, that is, no one perceives her as a russian, but i believe that there are cases, especially when this audience is very important for ukraine, and the meeting took place in toronto, and the audience was very serious, including representatives, one might say, of the country's top management. er, then i believe that at such meetings, er, the voice of ukraine should be heard, that is, such scenes cannot be given, er, to russians, or to people who are er, related to russia, from your own feelings, does the attitude toward ukraine and russia change in principle, well, we understand that russia is always present on these sites, relatively speaking, on university sites, in the faculties of slavic studies, which in fact were more like the faculties of russian studies all this time

for decades, and it builds its narratives, imperial, non-imperial, nihilistic, whatever , but it remains there, and what should we do to change it, or can we try to cancel russian culture abroad as well, and in russia, isn't this a naive attempt, you know, our attempts to censor... the entire russian culture, they are exposed to the misunderstanding of almost the entire western intellectual community, those who are now talking about ukraine on platforms in the west, those whom are allowed on these sites, they are not representatives of russia, but they perfectly understand the ukrainian position, and they look there, in fact, as victims of ukrainian hate, and by this they actually cause sympathy and, some such, emotions

that are not at all the same as would like for ukrainians in this situation, regarding universities, russian studios have lost their popularity and now, well, not now, already in the last five years the number of students has fallen sharply, they want to study russian language, literature there, or something else, uh, uh, they are renamed to universities of the department of russian studies, just at the department of slavic studies there and whether east european languages ​​and cultures there , eh, this process of ideas will continue, but the more, the more loudly we will rattle the tverima, eh in situations when we have to choose, to speak or not to speak for one site or to participate or not to participate in one festival or one

conference, the more the image of a victim will be in fact, those with whom the ukrainians did not want to talk, and it will already be about the internal relationship between russia and ukraine, and not about us conveyed some of their theses and their thoughts about the war, about russian culture, about the role of russian culture. in this war. there are actually different platforms where representatives of ukraine and russia can interact now abroad, the simplest example is, of course, athletes, that is, when our russian athletes and athletes, but who perform under a neutral flag, the so-called, can meet in the same arena and compete for the same awards, and we had a different position from the fact that we boycott any competitions where the russians are present, to the fact that we participate where the russians are, but they are, at least

under a neutral flag, can this be extrapolated to other areas, to cultural events, to cultural events and for cultural figures, you know , sooner or later, we will have to choose some a russian with whom we can talk, because in fact, ukrainians began to be invited less often to both literary events and conferences, and here is one of the largest literary festivals. the international festival in september did not invite any ukrainian author, but invited three representatives of the russian opposition to participate in the discussions, eh, this situation will be repeated, i think that we will witness the fact that we will be less willing to hear, because in fact we , we are telling

the truth, but we are saying the same thing the truth, without, without evolution, without... development of thought, that is, we simply cancel and say that there are no good russians, we show our wounds, we want sympathy and help, yes, there is sympathy, help will decrease, i already know of my own experience, two examples, when at ukrainian events, ukraine for humanitarian purposes, that is, we are already a little bit of everyone, so to speak...' with this uniform position of ours, this is it in principle, it is a collective reaction, because it is a collective reaction both to and to the fact that we bang on the door, and to the fact that we demand and ask, and to the fact that we, in fact, sometimes impose our thoughts on a foreign audience, which

they do not accept because of their own values, their own understanding of democracy, and so on, well, we feel really affected in this story, we feel like those who on whose side of justice do we demand it, or do we have the right to demand it? we have the right to demand in principle any justice, but we are reminded that we did not stand on the side of other countries when other countries were attacked and when other countries demanded justice and asked about aid, and it's not just about rwanda. this is about many other situations, because we are, in principle, normal, selfish people who were always focused on our own lives, on our own problems, on our own thoughts about our own future in our country, we are now, we are living now, sorry, to interrupt, we are now living in such a situation where we have

enough efforts to at least build a unified narrative within the country. and it is obvious that we, you said this phrase, and that the participants in may, of this discussion, those who were not the military said that they simply would not be allowed back to ukraine, this actually surprised the people who, and the organizers, who heard it, i, i will not name names, and it was a little unpleasant for our diplomats, because we are not north korea. nevertheless, we also have reverse stories, when a lot of cultural figures or politicians do not have the opportunity to go abroad without being invited even to some international events , this is an internal political problem, this is a continuation of the political struggle within countries during the war, this is, in principle, a separate topic, which is also very unpleasant, which one does not

really want to touch abroad, well, but the question is also that there is a desire... to establish some kind of unified narrative, some kind of unified narrative, so that everyone, in including the writers, eh, somewhere they acted very unanimously, synchronously and unanimously, there is some kind of practical or ethical point here, it is that your colleagues, perhaps from the pen center, for example, they decided, as i understand it, there was some kind of decision, that we are boycotting masha, hesen or, it is not, in fact, it is a conditionally general decision well, i think that the majority of ukrainian intellectuals and writers, which is not written down, and which people who adhere to this decision, they demand that everyone obey this decision, in principle, i do not want to talk again now about the collectivism

that is manifested in this, and about another thing, that is , there is a difference between collectivism and solidarity. ugh, solidarity is not, one hundred percent mandatory, and solidarity, it requires, in principle, an analytical approach to each individual case, when questions arise, to do it or not to do it, and of course, in such situation, in a war situation, any situation that goes beyond the boundaries of what everyone considers to be correct behavior, it... causes a conflict, this was the case with bulor andruhovich when he met with mykhailo shishkin, this was the case with oksana zabushka when she allowed the russian translation of her work to be published in england, it happened to me, it will happen to others, that is, in principle, this is not a unique situation, you know when

you talk to people who reacted very painfully, for example, to a story with you , hesse or on the history with the swiss one a citizen of russian origin and a writer, and andruhovich, do you also remember the meeting, and - i very often hear arguments that say, although we understand that the majority of people in this country do not know much about andruhovich, and for sure, i can't even remember this now of the swiss writer of russian origin from memory, and this means that in principle, so to speak, shishken, shishkin is correct, therefore, the influence in fact on some large masses is insignificant, but there is always an argument that if relatively speaking it is possible to meet with hesse, also the influence of hesse on russia, i also think, well absolutely. 81-year-old citizen of the united states, i don't think she is a very influential person there, for she is hated there, in fact, much

more than she is hated in ukraine, actually, and, but the argument is that if you can, for example, talk from hesse, so why can't potap, well, some conditional potap there, can't record some kind of collab, but with someone there, i don't know what the names of those russian rappers are all there, well, someone from there with russian rappers, now during the war, why not, after all, in such a case, and this is also a question of where it leads us, it leads us to the fact that we have just, just now, only we are happy that we have russian musical compositions there , for example, on youtube somewhere below the 10th place, perhaps, and we understand that we simply need some resistance for the masses, resistance from the russian soft-power here in ukraine, and it seems to me that all the time with such a ricochet or echo of these stories about the fact that somewhere there are lofty intellectuals somewhere there, ukrainians sit down at the same table with russian intellectuals, good russians of various degrees, this is always

a story about the fact that we are afraid, no matter how much our common people know it, no no no no back to russian culture and russian influences, i i think all intelligent people understand that there will be no return to relations with russia, any cultural...or other, and there will be no communication between russians and ukrainians for two generations after the war, just as it happened between the soviet people and the germans, although, the germans changed under the influence of the american occupation and re-education. no one will occupy and re-educate russians, they can only change themselves, and in my opinion, this is the only way. the only possibility for them to change is if china democratizes, and they are now determined to watch and copy everything

china does, then they behind china may also democratize, but when that will happen, no one knows, ugh, and fear that that some new russian-ukrainian relations will appear, which will expand, to be activated and used by russia. this, this, this is, in principle, a utopia, that is, it is clear that this will not happen, and meetings that can take place a couple of times a year with someone who is either of russian origin, but is our supporter, is in principle a defender of ukraine, and ukrainian interests in this war, they do not bring closer, in fact, bring russia closer to ukraine, they rather. show the west that ukrainians do not isolate themselves, that is, they

respect those who support them, and hate those who fight with them, that is, they want us such european rationality in that matter, of course, but of course that it should not be expected until the end of the war, and maybe some years after the war, however, if you say who we are talking to. theoretically, at least, there is something tempting in this thesis to say that there are no good russians and anyone who is russian is therefore unacceptable for us , but is this a good thesis or should we, and by the way, then how do we calculate who there is russian, and who is not russian, the same masha gesen, as much as she is a russian person, she is an american of soviet-jewish origin. which parents was taken out of the soviet union as a child, it is literally the same thing that can be said, for example, about president zelensky only to say that he is ukrainian, instead of american.

yes, and this is the question that we must also have some kind of gradation here, that is, for you there are some russians , for example, writers, with whom you would not sit down at the same table, neither in canada, nor in the united states, nor anywhere ? well, i think 99.9%, uh, uh, even more so, especially after i read the open letter, in support of putin and his war in ukraine, signed five hundred russian writers, there were many of your acquaintances there, with whom you spent a good time, thank god, there, thank god, there were no acquaintances there, nevertheless, if we take even such people as chhaartishvili himself, and akunin , these people seem to be quite, let's say, nice, but they also have a lot of this imperial narrative in their works, i think that everyone

understands akunin. by the way, he himself wrote about the fact that, that he understands that his works contain glorification of the russian empire, and this, too, is the reason for which with him, if you sit down for a conversation, then it means sit down for a conversation and talk about what he is guilty of, because cultural narratives, and his texts are precisely cultural narratives that have been read by millions of russians, they raise... love to the russian empire, they raised this desire to be useful to the empire and serve it, but this is a literary topic, and it is not suitable for conversations during the war, that's one thing. sofia andruhovich, in an interview recently said that we should not help the russians to deal with their

with a guilt complex, somehow she said, do you agree with this , i agree , there is no point in talking to the russians for the sake of the russians, i read this interview, i really liked it, but to talk to people who may have some relations with russia, but speaking for the west , for them to speak for the west, the right things, i.e. the truth, and not trying to build new narratives, this is sometimes necessary. and in fact, there are russians with whom you can talk, or representatives of the russian language the origin of different countries, there are very few of them, that is, we are talking about units , not tens, you know, we had an idea, and even we won funding before the war, but the war prevented us from realizing it, making a documentary film about the ussr

precisely because it was an empire, a great empire of lies, well, there are already a lot of archival documents that show how powerful these disinformation committees were inside the kgb, and it was a whole doctrine, precisely using disinformation, or now would say fake news fakes, botfarms and so on, destabilize unfriendly, let's say, countries, blocs, the then ussr, moscow, and now, when we talk about the fact that the world one way or another... we should also oppose russian narratives, russian propaganda, we also see how different this propaganda can be, that is, we saw that , for example, during the covid epidemic, the russians actually attacked simply the very ability to think critically, they attacked, that is , for example, the belief that vaccination helps people, that is, they undermined just the foundations, well let's say, just simply rational thinking as such in

the world, but at the same time, if... we take about russian narratives, it is also, for example, dostoevsky, it is also turgenev, it is russian literature with its nihilism, with its disbelief in man's ability to resist evil , for example, or with its glorification of evil to a certain extent, even, its seductive power and justification of evil, eh, i don’t know, but herman getsen, for example, one of those writers who opposed this excessive fascination with russian literature with this motive . for example, is ukraine too, and we how those who know russian literature very well, and also know the russians themselves well, can also be an alternative voice here, you know, this topic, by the way, sounds regularly, now both in europe and in america, the topic of influence, russian classic...