[000:00:00;00] there were no people on the street, there were no cars at all, there were no people, that is, everyone was sitting at home, no one ran away, the only way to escape from here is by plane, and as you understand, you don't really want to get on a plane, go to there are a lot of people in the shelter, they follow the recommendations given by the rear service very carefully, because they understand from childhood how important it is. so, for example , when the alarm starts, we go up the stairs, and on the stairs there is the whole entrance, the whole, that is, children, dogs, cats, all with animals, all, men, women, old people, all on the stairs, i live in a safe, not safe, part of israel, so here i believe that people have taken it more calmly , now i can already hear cars driving,

shops open, some cafes open, that is, i can't say that there are a lot of people, but they are there, as i see on the streets , no one wants to go anywhere, everyone understands that israel is a very strong country, very strong , a strong military potential, and we understand that it will not be war, how can it be in ukraine, it will not be so long, we understand that israel will win and win quickly, i am located in the north of the country, this is the city of naaria, 11 km from the border with lebanon and from the gaza strip, for example, it is impossible for anything to reach us, yes, hamas cannot attack us, but here we just have near livvan and there is hezbollah here, so we don't have air alarms at the moment, but we are all ready for the fact that rocket attacks may start, water supply, of course, it is always here in some basic way, food too, medicines are some of

the most necessary. there are always, too, there are generally three types of bomb shelters, the first of which is when the armored room is located directly in the apartment, er, such rooms must necessarily be under some kind of security protocol in all new houses or houses that have undergone renovation, yes, the second system is bomb shelters in the houses themselves, they are located below. in the basements underground, there is communication, there is water, a toilet, everything like that, and the third system is the city bomb shelters, currently all bomb shelters are open, i do not see panic here at all, in general, people are calm, people just know what to do , uh, i'm on the balcony right now sitting, i see that people are walking with dogs , for example, yes, they go out not far from their house, of course there are no events here,

closed, closed coffee shops, closed ... some entertainment institutions, but they are working, grocery stores, pharmacies are working , people, if necessary, can go there by car, of course, the streets are like that, more empty than usual, but i do not notice a global panic, there are two moments, the first moment, this is definitely a question, how could this be allowed, it is there for everyone, but him. everyone postpones, because now, well, it's not really time, so there is a second one state, this is unity, everyone is connected , so that the state, israel, simply survives, well , that's the end of freedom live, i urge you to subscribe to radio svoboda's pages on the internet, please like this broadcast, in this way, you will support

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immediate future, every saturday at 1:00 p.m. with a repeat at 10:00 p.m. studio zahid with anton borkovsky at espresso. collaborators, who surrendered ukrainian cities to the russians? ukraine is a terrorist state, we have been convinced of this since the 14th year. but how to sell your own conscience for small rubles and fake positions? our future is with the russian federation. we must know the traitors face to face, watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko, every wednesday at 5:45 p.m. on the espresso tv channel. the war in ukraine, the main topic for ukrainians, victories and losses, analysis and forecasts, politics and geopolitics, serhii rudenko and the guests of his program will talk about all this. people who own information and

shape public opinion. people defending ukraine and creating the future right now, the main and interesting thing, in the verdict by serhii rudenko program. from monday to friday at 20:00. repeat at 12:10 p.m. greetings, my name is andriy saichuk, and today we will talk with andriy kurkov, a writer. mr. andriy, good day to you. i congratulate you. actually, mr. andriy said to introduce him as a writer, and this, this,

you know, modesty is not the greatest virtue in today's world, but i think it is still worth adding that mr. andrii is probably one of the most famous ukrainian writers, especially abroad, and there is such a thing. there is such, well, there is such, well, this, this is a fact, and probably, in fact, that is why the voice of mr. andrii is very often heard, as well as abroad, and this is actually the topic i wanted to dwell on today, this topic is not simple, it is the topic of how we work with russian soft power, the soft power that exists, which acts simultaneously and in the whole world, and in ukraine itself, i would like to analyze this story a little, there is also the story that recently had such a resonance and had such a certain even scandalous, let's say, echo, in which, in which mr. an andriy kurkov also took part,

this topic seems to me none the less important, it really needs to be discussed, as for me , mr. andrii, are you comfortable talking about it, i am comfortable, i am comfortable talking about everything, i would start with what are we currently in in principle, we come to such an understanding that we we must speak on any platforms on any topics, including talking about russians, including talking about ukraine, even where russians are also present. what is your own position? i will remind you very briefly of this background, this is the story when you agreed to meet on the same square. or with masha hessen - she is already an american citizen , as far as i know, but, a russian journalist who, you know,

masha hessen, an american citizen since 1981, oh, this, this, this, it's fair to say, to me it seemed like five years, and she was already an american citizen, well, good for him, although, for them, i know so well that she is not a binary person, not so long ago, so here you also need not to get confused with the correct presentation, eh. i know that your colleagues quite, some, your colleagues reacted quite harshly to your decision, and i know that you have already explained why you did not refuse this meeting, this conversation on the same platform, can you tell , why? well, you know, the situation that happened in may of this year new york, it was really unpleasant and unacceptable for the ukrainian participants, i

will remind you a little about what it is about. that is, two ukrainian servicemen, artem cheh and artem chapai, as well as our female writers, came to speak at the new york festival organized by peno, an american, they knew and agreed that masha gesyn would be the moderator, but they did not know that the organizers decided for, that is, to invite two more russian... political emigrants, one historian and one journalist, to this panel, and when found out, then the ukrainian participants, the servicemen said that they were not allowed, the ministry forbade them from talking to the russians, and not the servicemen said that if they appeared on the panel with the russians, they would not be allowed back to ukraine, ugh, and thus the organizers brought

...' meeting with the russians outside the festival, it took place in a smaller format and with a different audience, the ukrainian participants spoke by themselves, without the russians, masha hesen reacted emotionally and not very correctly, that is, she resigned from the post of vice president of the american open club, the pet center, and somewhere in the comments she said that ukrainian writers are very cruel to her russians, to the opportunity to speak with russians, er, and in principle, after that she was terminated in ukraine, my ukrainian, her colleagues, and that's why there was a reaction to the fact that i agreed to talk with her, eh, especially since she was constantly accused of saying in her interviews everywhere that this is putin's war, not a war. russians, huh, well, in principle, the choice was this,

or they will talk about ukraine, without ukrainians, and in this case, without my participation, or i will participate and, if i disagree, i will talk about it, and indeed, during the meeting, she repeated this thesis that this is putin’s war, i explained and argued why this is a war of russia and the russian people, and not putin, she publicly agreed, in the end, that i was right, and, that is, the transcript of this conversation is in ukrainian on the internet, a journalist from the babel publication was present at the meeting, she recorded everything, then took a short interview with me. yu, and after that i

got what i got, and that's why my recorded video dialogue with jonathan francyn, who was supposed to open the lviv forum, was canceled at the lviv forum, that is, you are not present at the lviv forum precisely because of this, i am not there, yes, do you think that this is unfair? i don't think anything, i think that now, to give an assessment because it is happening, it makes no sense, but there is, that is, it was a demand. of the community that was satisfied, and basically if the community is satisfied with the result, then everything is fine, let's talk about this position again, your point is in the fact that if we do not sit down in the same space with the russians and do not talk , including about us and about them, then in fact we simply give them this playground, i am not saying that we should talk with the russians, with everyone by russians and so on, that is, for america, masha gesyn is not russian, that is, no one... perceives her as a russian, but i believe that there are

cases, especially when this audience is very important for ukraine, and the meeting took place in toronto, and the audience was very serious, including representatives there, you can to say to the top leadership, the country, i believe that at such meetings , the voice of ukraine should be heard, that is, such scenes cannot be given... principles of attitude towards ukraine and russia? well, we understand that russia is always present on these sites, conventionally speaking, on university sites, in the faculties of slavic studies, which were actually rather faculties of russian studies all this time, it has been present for decades, and it is building its narratives, imperial, non-imperial , nihilistic, whatever, but it

's still there, and what do we have to do to change that, or can we try to cancel russia. culture both abroad and in russia, is this not a naive attempt? you know, our attempts to cancel the entire russian culture, they are exposed to the misunderstanding of almost the entire western intellectual community, those who are now talking about ukraine on platforms in the west, those who are allowed on these platforms, these are not representatives of russia. but they understand perfectly well the ukrainian position and they actually look like victims of ukrainian hate, and this actually evokes sympathy and emotions that are not at all what

ukrainians would like in this situation, regarding universities, that is, russian studios. have lost their popularity and now, well, not now, already in the last five years, the number of students who want to study the russian language, literature there or something else, uh, eh, is renamed in universities , the department of russian studies, just the department of slavic studies there and or eastern europeans there languages ​​and cultures, this process is going on and will continue, but more often we will loudly bang the tverim, in situations where we have to choose, to speak or not to speak on one platform, or to participate or not to participate in one festival or one conference , the more will be the image

of the victim, those with whom the ukrainians did not want to talk, and it will already be about the internal relationship between russia and ukraine, and not about us conveying some of our theses and our thoughts about the war, about russian culture , about the role of russian culture in this war. is actually different platforms where representatives of ukraine and russia can interact now abroad, the simplest example is, of course , athletes, that is, when our athletes and athletes are russian, but who perform under a neutral flag, the so-called, and can meet... on one arena, and compete for the same awards, and we had a different position from the fact that we boycott any competitions where russians are present, to the fact that we participate where russians are,

but they, at least under neutral flag, can it be extrapolated to other areas, to cultural ones, to some cultural events and for cultural figures, you know. sooner or later, we will have to choose some russians with whom we can talk, because in fact, ukrainians began to be invited less to and literary events, and at the conference, and here, one of the largest literary festivals, the berlin international festival, in september did not invite a single ukrainian author, but invited three representatives of... the russian opposition to participate in discussions, this situation will repeat myself, i think we will witness that we will be less willing to be heard, because in fact we, we speak the truth, but we speak the same truth, without, without evolution, without development

of thought, that is, we just cancel and we say that there are no good russians, we show our wounds, we want sympathy and help, there is sympathy, help will decrease, i already know from my own experience, two examples when, at ukrainian events, the organizers asked not to announce the collection of aid for of ukraine, for humanitarian purposes, that is, we are already we tired everyone a little, so to speak, with this monotonous position of ours. it's, it's basically, it's a collective reaction, because, it's a collective reaction to and that we're banging on the door, and that we're, uh, demanding and asking, and that we're uh, actually,

sometimes we impose our thoughts on the foreign audience, which they do not accept because of their own values, their own understanding of democracy, and so on, well, we feel really behind in this history, we feel like those on whose side justice is, we demand it , do we have the right to demand this, we have in the right to demand in principle any... but we are reminded that we did not stand on the side of other countries when other countries were attacked and when other countries demanded justice and asked for help, and this is not only about rwanda, it is about many others situations, because we are, in principle, normal, selfish people who were always focused on our own lives, on our own problems, on our own thoughts about our own future, our country, we are now, we are living now, sorry to interrupt, we now we live in such a situation

where we have enough effort, at least to build a unified narrative inside the country, and it is obvious that we, here you said this phrase, and that the participants in this, this, this discussion in may, those who were not military said that they simply will not be allowed back to ukraine, this in fact, vavalo is a lot of people who, and the organizers, you, who heard it, i, i will not name names, and it was a little unpleasant for our diplomats, because we are not north korea, nevertheless, we have reverse stories , when many cultural figures or politicians do not have the opportunity to go abroad without having been invited even to some international events is a political problem, it is a continuation of the political struggle inside the country during the war, it is in principle a separate topic, which is also very unpleasant,

and which one does not really want to touch abroad, well, but the question also in the fact that there is a desire to establish some kind of unified narrative, some kind of unified narrative, so that everyone, including writers, somewhere acts very uniformly, synchronously and in unison, there is some kind of practical or ethical point here, this is that your colleagues... maybe from the pen center, they, for example, decided, as i understand it, there was some decision that we boycott masha gen, or is this not really, this is a conditionally general decision, i think, of the majority of ukrainian intellectuals and writers, which is not prescribed, and which the people who adhere to this decision, they demand that everyone obey. this decision, in principle, i do not want to talk about collectivism again now,

which manifests itself in this and about something else, that is, there is a difference between collectivism and solidarity, uh, solidarity is not eh, one hundred percent mandatory, and solidarity it requires, in principle, an analytical approach to each individual case, when questions arise, to do it? or not to do, and of course, in such a situation, in a war situation, any situation that goes beyond the boundaries of what everyone considers correct behavior, it causes a conflict, so bulork andruhovich, when he met with mykhailo shishkin, so was with oksana zabushka, when she allowed the russian translation of her work to be published in england. that's what happened to me, that's how it will be with others, that is, in principle, this is not a unique situation, you know, when i talk to people

who reacted very painfully, for example, to the story with you and hesen, or to the story with that swiss citizen of russian origin, and the writer and andruhovich, remember attend this meeting too, and i very often hear arguments that say, although we understand that most people in this country do not know much about andruh. and for sure, i can't even remember this swiss writer of russian origin right now, just from memory means that in principle, so to speak, shishken shishken is correct, therefore, the influence in fact on some large masses is insignificant, but there is always an argument that if , conditionally speaking, it is possible to meet with hesse, also the influence of hesse on russia, i also think well, the absolute minimum of a person with a non-binary personality who has been a citizen of the united states since 80, the first year, i do not think that she is a very influential person there, for she is hated there, in fact, much more than she is hated

in ukraine, in fact, and, but the argument. .. such that if it is possible, for example, to have a casual conversation with hesem, then why can't potap, well, a conditional potap of some kind there, can't record some kind of collab, and with someone there, i don't know what the names of those russian rappers are all there, well, somebody with some of the russian rappers there, now during the war, why not, in the end, in such a case, it is also a question of where it leads us, it leads us to what we just now, only we are happy that we have there russian compositions are musical, for example on... somewhere below the 10th place, perhaps, and we understand that we simply need some resistance to the masses , resistance to the russian soft power here in ukraine, and it seems to me that all the time there is such a ricochet or echo about these stories that somewhere there, high-ranking ukrainian intellectuals, somewhere there sit down at the same table with

russian intellectuals, good, russian, of various degrees, it is always a story about the fact that we are afraid, no matter how much our common people will not... you know, no, no, no, no, back, back to russian culture and russian influences, i think, all of them intelligent people understand that there will be no return to relations with russia, whether cultural or otherwise, and there will be no communication between russians and ukrainians, two generations after the war, just as it happened between the soviet people and the germans, although the germans changed under the influence of the american occupation and re-education. no one will occupy and re-educate the russians, they can only change themselves, and in my opinion, the only way and the only opportunity for them to change is if china democratizes, and they now they are determined to watch and copy everything that china does, then they

can also democratize behind china, but when that will happen, no one knows, ugh, but to be afraid that some new russian-ukrainian relations will appear, which, will be expanded, activated and used by russia, this, this, this is, in principle, a utopia, that is, it is clear that this will not happen, and meetings that can take place a couple of times a year with someone who is either of russian origin, but is our supporter , is in principle the defender of ukraine, and ukrainian interests in this war, they do not bring closer, in fact, they bring russia closer to ukraine, they rather show the west that ukrainians do not isolate themselves, that is, they

respect those who support them and hate those who are with them is fighting, that is, from us. wants such european rationality in that matter, of course, but of course it should not be expected until the end of the war, and maybe some years after the war. nevertheless, if we say with whom we are talking, theoretically, perhaps, there is something tempting in this such a thesis, to say, that there are no good russians, and anyone who is russian is, accordingly, unacceptable to us , but is this a good thesis, or are we, and by the way, how then to calculate who is russian and who is not russian, the same masha hesen, as far as she russian man? she is an american of soviet-jewish origin, whom her parents deported from the soviet union, this is literally the same thing that can be said, for example , about president zelensky, only to say

that he is a ukrainian, instead of an american, and this is also a question that we must have some kind of gradation, that is, there are some russians for you, for example, the writers you sit down with, at the same table, not in canada, not in the united states, not anywhere, well, i think 99.9%, er, more so, especially after i read , an open letter of support for putin and his war in ukraine, signed by five hundred russian writers. there were many of your acquaintances there, with whom you spent a good time, thank god, there were no acquaintances there, nevertheless, if we take even such people as chhaartishvili himself, and akunin, these people seem to be enough, let's say yes, they are cute, but they also have a lot of this imperial narrative in their works, i think that everyone understands about akunin, and he

himself, by the way, wrote about what, he ee e