no for for them, i know that she is not a binary personality, not so long ago, so here you also need not to get confused with, with the correct presentation, i know that your colleagues quite, some, your colleagues reacted quite harshly to your decision , and i know that you have already explained why you did not give up this meeting, this conversation on the same platform, can you tell me why? well , you know, the situation that happened this may. in new york, it was really unpleasant and unacceptable for the ukrainian participants, i will remind a little what it is about, that is, two ukrainian servicemen, artem cheh and artem chapai, as well as our writers, came to speak at the new york festival organized by peno, an american, they knew and agreed

that masha gesyn would be the moderator, but they did not know that the organizers, decided in favor, that is, to invite two more russian political emigrants, one historian and one journalist, to this panel, and then, when they found out, the ukrainian participants, military personnel , said that they were not allowed, the ministry forbade them to talk to russians, and not the servicemen said that if they spoke on the panel with the russians, they would not be allowed back to ukraine, ugh, and thus the organizers took the meeting with the russians outside the festival, it took place in a smaller format and with a different audience, the ukrainian participants spoke themselves , without russians, masha hesen reacted emotionally and not very correctly, that is, she resigned from

the post of vice president of the american pen club, pen center, and in the comments somewhere they said that ukrainian writers are very cruel to her russians, to opportunities to talk with the russians, er, and basically, after that she was terminated in ukraine, ukrainian er, my colleagues, and that is why there was a reaction to the fact that i agreed to talk with her, especially since she was constantly criticized, that she everywhere says in her interviews that this is putin's war, not the russians' war, ugh, well, in principle, the choice was this, or they will talk about ukraine, without ukrainians, and in this case, without my participation, or i will participate and, if i disagree, i will talk about it. well, indeed, during

the meeting, she repeated this thesis that it is putin's war, i explained and argued why this is the war of russia and the russian people, and not putin, she publicly agreed, in the end , that i was right, and, that is, the transcript of this conversation is in ukrainian on the internet, a journalist was present , babel at the meeting, she recorded everything, then took a short interview with me, and after that i got what i got, and that's why , on the lviv forum, my recorded video dialogue with jonathan frandson, who was supposed to open the lviv forum, was canceled forum, that is, you are not on the lviv uniform are present precisely because of this, i am not there, yes, you think that... it is unfair, i don't

think anything, i think that now, uh, it makes no sense to evaluate what is happening, but there is, that is, it was a demand of the community that was satisfied, and in principle, if the community is satisfied with this result, then everything is fine , let's talk about this position again, your point is that if we do not sit in the same space with the russians and say, that including about us and about them, then in fact we simply...' give them without a fight this platform, i'm not saying that you need to talk to russians, to all russians and so on , that is, for america, masha hessen is not russian, that is, no one perceives her as russian, but i believe that there are cases, especially when this audience is very important for ukraine, and the meeting took place in toronto, and the audience was very serious, including representatives, one might say, of the country's leadership, so i

believe that at such meetings, the voice of ukraine should be heard, that is, such scenes cannot be shown . russians or people who connected with russia, from your own feelings, does the attitude toward ukraine and russia change in principle, well, we understand that russia is on these sites, relatively speaking, on university sites, in the faculties of slavic studies, which in reality were rather faculties of russian studies all this time, it is always present, it has been present for decades, and it builds its narratives, imperial, non-imperial. nihilistic, whatever, but it's still there, and what do we have to do to change it, or can we try to cancel russian culture both abroad and in russia, is this not a naive attempt? you know,

our attempts to censor the entire russian culture, they are exposed to the misunderstanding of almost the entire western intellectual community. those who speak now on platforms about ukraine in the west, those who are allowed on these platforms are not representatives of russia, but they perfectly understand the ukrainian position and they look there, in fact, as victims of ukrainian hatred, and by this they are actually causing , sympathy and some such emotions not at all the kind that ukrainians would like in this situation, regarding universities, that is, russian studies have lost their popularity and now, well, not now, already in the last five years the number

of students who want to study the russian language, literature there or something else, ugh, in universities, the departments of russian studies are renamed simply to the departments of slavic studies there and east european languages ​​and cultures there, this process is ongoing and will continue, but the more often we will loudly slam the door, in situations where we have to choose whether to speak or not to speak on the same platform, or to participate or not to participate in the same festival or in the same conference, the more will actually be the image... of those with whom the ukrainians did not want to talk, and it will already be about the internal relationship between russia and ukraine, and not about us conveying some of our theses and our thoughts about the war, about russian culture,

about the role of russian culture in this war, there are actually different platforms where representatives of ukraine and russia can interact now abroad, the simplest example is with of course, athletes, that is, when our russian sportsmen and sportsmen, but who perform under the so-called neutral flag, can meet in the same arena and compete for the same awards, and we had a different position, from the fact that we boycott any which competitions where the russians are present, to the fact that we participate where the russians are, but they are, at least under a neutral flag. can it be extrapolated to other areas, to cultural, to cultural events and for cultural figures? you know, sooner or later, we will have to choose which russians,

with whom we can talk, because in fact, ukrainians began to be invited less often to both literary events and conferences, and here, one of the largest international literary festivals in september did not invite a single ukrainian author, but invited three representatives of the russian opposition, brothers participation in discussions, this situation will be repeated, i think we will witness that we will be less willing to be heard, because in fact we, we speak the truth, but we speak the same truth. without, without evolution, without development of thought, that is, we simply cancel and say that there are no good russians, we show our wounds, we want sympathy and help, yes, there is sympathy, help will decrease, i already know from my own experience, two

examples when, at ukrainian events , the organizers, asked not to announce the collection of aid. for ukraine, for humanitarian purposes, that is, we have already tired everyone a little , so to speak, with this monotonous position of ours, this is it in principle, it is a collective reaction, because it is a collective reaction both to and to the fact that we are slamming the door, and to what we we demand and ask, and for the fact that we, in fact, sometimes impose our thoughts on the foreign audience, which they do not accept because of their own values, their own understanding of democracy, and so on, well, we feel really affected in this history , we hear. by those on whose side of justice we demand it, or do we have a right to demand

it? we have the right to demand in principle any justice, but we are reminded that we did not stand on the side of other countries when other countries were attacked and when other countries demanded justice and asked for help, and it's not just about rwanda, it's about many other situations, because we basically. normal, selfish people who were always focused on their own lives , on their own problems, on their own thoughts about their own future in our country, we are now, we are living now, excuse me for interrupting, we are now living in such a situation where we have enough effort, at least to build a unified narrative inside the country, and it is obvious that we, you said this phrase, and that the participant... in may - of this discussion, those

who were not in the military, said that they simply would not be allowed back to ukraine, this actually , it surprised a lot, people who, uh, there are organizers, and you, who heard this, i, i will not name names, and it was a little it is unpleasant for our diplomats, because we are not north korea, however, we also have reverse stories, when there are a lot of cultural figures. or politicians, do not have the opportunity to go abroad on having, being invited, even to some international events, er, this is an internal political problem, that is a continuation of the political struggle inside countries during the war, this is, in principle, a separate topic, which is also very unpleasant and which one does not really want to touch on abroad, well, but the issue is also that there is a desire to establish some kind of unified narrative, some kind of unified narrative, so that everyone, including those

writers, somewhere acted very unanimously, synchronously and in unison, there is some kind of practical or ethical point, it is that, your colleagues, maybe from the pen center, they, for example, decided, i understand, there was some decision that we are boycotting masha hesen, is it not, in fact, it is conditionally general the decision, i think, of the majority of ukrainian intellectuals and writers, and which is not written down and which the people who adhere to this decision, they demand that everyone obey this decision, in principle, i do not want to talk again now about the collectivism that manifests itself in this and about another thing, that is, there is a difference between collectivism and solidarity, well, solidarity is not, one hundred percent obligatory , and solidarity requires, in principle, an analytical approach to each individual

case, when questions arise, to do it or not to do it, and of course, in such a situation, in a war situation, any situation that goes beyond the boundaries of what everyone considers to be correct behavior, it causes a conflict, like bulork andruhovich when...' he met with mykhailo shishkin, so it was with oksana zabushka when she, allowed the russian translation of her work to be published in england, it happened to me, it will happen to others, that is, in principle, this is not a unique situation. you know when you talk to people who react very painfully, for example, to the story with you hesse, or to the story with that swiss citizen of russian origin and the writer and drukhovich, you remember this meeting too, and i very often hear arguments that say, although we

understand that most people in this country do not know much about andrukhovich, and for sure, and i can't even remember this now a swiss writer of russian origin, yes, from memory, and this means that in principle , so to speak, yes, shishken, shishkin, that's right, therefore, therefore, the influence in fact on some large masses is insignificant, but always there is an argument. that relatively speaking, it is possible meeting with hesen is very interesting, also the influence of hesen on russia, i also think, well, absolutely minimal, of a person with a non-binary personality, who has been a citizen since 1981. states, i don't think that she is a very influential person there, for she is hated there, in fact , much more than she is hated in ukraine, actually, and, but the argument is that if you can, for example, talk to hesse, then why potap he can’t, well, some conditional potap there, he can’t record some kind of collab, but with someone there, i don’t know what

the names of those russian rappers are all there, well, someone with someone there are russian rappers, now during the war , why not, in the end, in such a case, it is also a question of where it leads us, it leads us to the fact that we just, just now, only we are glad that we have russian musical compositions, for example, on youtube somewhere below the 10th place, perhaps, and we understand that we simply need some resistance to the masses, resistance to the russian softpower here in ukraine, and it seems to me that all the time such a ricochet or echo of these stories about the fact that somewhere there are high... ukrainian ones somewhere sit down at the same table with russian intellectuals, good russians of various degrees, this is always a story about the fact that we are afraid, no matter how much it will not, you know, not return our common people to russian culture and russian influences, i think all reasonable people understand that

there will be no return to any relations with russia, cultural or otherwise, and there will be no communication between russians and ukrainians, two generations after the war, and just as it happened, between the soviet people and the germans, although , the germans changed under the influence american occupation and re-education, no one will occupy and re-educate the russians, they can only change themselves, and in my opinion, the only way and the only opportunity for them to change is if china... democratizes, and they are now determined to watch and copy whatever china does, then they may also democratize behind china, but no one knows when that will happen, ugh, but to be afraid that some new russian-ukrainian relations will appear, which will expand, become more active and

be used by russia, is this, this in principles, utopia. that is, it is clear that this will not happen, and meetings that may take place a couple of times a year with someone who is of russian origin, but is our supporter, is in principle a defender of ukraine and ukrainian interests in this war, they do not bring in fact, bringing russia and ukraine together, they, rather, show the west. what is it that ukrainians do not isolate themselves, i.e. they respect those who support them and hate those who fight with them, i.e. they want such european rationality from us in that matter, of course, but of course that her it is not worth waiting until the end of the war, and maybe a few more years after the war, nevertheless, if

we say who we are talking to, theoretically at least, there is something tempting in this thesis to say that there are no good russians and anyone who is russian, accordingly for us it is unacceptable, but is this a good thesis, or do we have to, and by the way, then how to calculate who is russian and who is not russian, the same masha gesen, as far as she is a russian person, she is an american , of soviet-jewish origin, whose parents took her from the soviet union as a child. it literally the same can be said, for example, about president zelsky, only to say that he is a ukrainian, instead of an american, and this is also a question that there must be some kind of gradation here, that is, for you there are some russians, for example, writers, with whom you would you didn't sit down at the same table in canada or the united states or anywhere, well i think

99.9%, especially after i read the open letter, supporting putin and his war in ukraine, signed by five hundred russian writers, there were many your acquaintances, with whom you spent a good time, thank god there, thank god, there were no acquaintances there, nevertheless, if we take even such people as the same chhaartishvili and akunin, these people seem to be enough, let's say so , cute. but they also have a lot of this imperial narrative in their works, i think that everyone understands about akunin, and he himself, by the way, wrote about the fact that he understands that in his works there is a glorification of the russian empire, and and this too, this is the reason why, if you sit down to talk with him, it is this

sit down for a conversation and talk about what he is guilty of, because the cultural narratives, and his texts are precisely the cultural narratives that were read by millions of russians, they raised the love for the russian empire, they raised this desire... to be useful to the empire and to serve her, but this topic is a literary topic and it is not suitable for conversations during the war, anyway, sofia andruhovich, in an interview, recently said that we should not help the russians to deal with their guilt complex, something like that she said do you agree with with this thesis, i agree, talking with russians for the sake of russians makes no sense, i read this interview, i really liked it, but talking with people who may have some relation to russia, but

talking for the west, for , so that they speak the right things for the west, i.e. the truth, and not try to build new narratives, this is sometimes necessary, and in fact, there are very few russians with whom you can talk, or representatives of... russian origin from various countries, that is, we are talking about ones, not tens, you know we had an idea, and even we won funding before the war, but the war prevented us from realizing it, making a documentary film about the ussr precisely because it was an empire, a great empire of lies, there are already a lot of archival documents that show how powerful the disinformation committees were inside the kgb, and this was a whole doctrine, precisely using disinformation , or now we would say fake news,

botfarm fakes and so on, to destabilize, unfriendly, let's say, countries, blocs, to the then ussr, moscow, and now that we we talk about the fact that the world has to resist in one way or another, and we also oppose russian narratives, russian propaganda, we also see it. how different this propaganda can be, that is, we saw that , for example, during the covid epidemic, the russians actually attacked just the very ability to think critically, they attacked, that is, for example, the belief that vaccination helps people, that is, they undermined just the foundations, well let's say, simply rational thinking as such in the world, but at the same time, if we take about russian narratives, it is also, for example, and dostoyevsky, this is also turgenev, this is russian literature with its nihilism, with its disbelief in the ability of man to resist evil, for example , or with its, to a certain extent, glorification of evil, even its seductive power, and the justification

of evil, eh, i don’t know, but hermann hesse, for example, is one of those writers who opposed this excessive fascination with russian literature and with this motive, for example, ukraine too, and we, as those who know russian very well. literature, and also know the russians themselves well, may also be here in an alternative kind of voice, you know, this topic, by the way, sounds regularly now both in europe and in america, the topic of the influence of russian classical literature on the worldview and behavior of russians, on the mentality, that is, nihilism and fatalism, which were preached and dostoevsky and...' writers, they are the reason that there is no opposition, no protests in russia, and even those russians who

left russia as a sign of protest, they do not organize demonstrations against the war in berlin, they organize demonstrations on support for putin, and here for me the most important thing is that this virus of fatalism and nihilism did not get into the cities of ukrainians, that is, fatalism for ukraine is a foreign, foreign phenomenon, a foreign opinion, and that is why ukrainians were not afraid to go out on the maidan and that is why in our country, i would say that the civil society is stronger than the political elite, and practically the civil society decides what to do, and then forces, when it succeeds , the political elite to do what the society orders, there is still one point left, but

for me i also think he is important. it the question is who speaks today on behalf of ukraine, and you know, it’s just with the athletes , they showed the best results, they went to the olympics there at the end of the year, everything is clear here, we may not like something further there, there is not enough antennae, then some was about being pro-patriotic and so on, i didn't come out with that salt on my head, but the question of who represents ukraine in the cultural field is also to a certain extent simpler than it is, for example, who goes there to head embassies somewhere. well, let's leave that aside, and, if we talk about this moment, there are also criteria, this criterion is how many of your books have been published, in particular, how many invitations you receive from international organizations, institutions, and one way or another you represent ukraine today and represent it, i am sure well, although many believe that , for example, your conversation with gaim was quite complementary, because someone wanted more flesh and blood in this conversation, probably, probably, eh.

me, but the question is that in fact, i don't want you to take me for something bad, what is called, what i'm going to say now, somewhere in in the 90s, ukraine decided that a ukrainian writer can write in russian, but be a ukrainian writer, and in this category, it means that, for example, andriy kurkov is a ukrainian writer and remains a ukrainian writer. and for example, here in lviv ihor kleh, who was also a good writer, and i read him in ukrainian, by the way, in yevshan zilla, while still a student, in this legendary almanac, which was already very worn out, which kolintsi once published, his translation , some of his works were translated, but he became now a member of the pen center of russia, and he lives in russia, in moscow, it is about the fact that we made such a choice, we made a much wider, much

broader framework. in fact, what it means to be a ukrainian , we have greatly expanded this framework and we also understood that being a ukrainian is what it means to be, first of all, it is a political nation, yes, but there is also a certain one, we see in zelenskyi, for example, an example when president zelenskyi has evolved very, very much, literally in three years, his statements about the difference between poop and the way he appears in front of television cameras today, this is a very big, big, great progress, and each of us, probably so. has come a long way, i remember in the early 2000s, i read your interview, it seems to the austrian focus, where you, where the journalist asked you what this trident means, no, it was even earlier, what does the trident mean on coat of arms of ukraine, and you laughed with him that no one knows in the end, it's something like a fork, the question is, eh, how do we all change ourselves, and can we have some kind of unified narrative

that means the interest of ukraine? what does it ultimately mean for you to be ukrainian, to represent ukraine in one way or another in the international arena? for me, this first of all means explaining, especially now to a foreign audience, the history of this more than three-year-old war, that is, basically explaining that ukraine was independent, that ukraine was... democratic, when russia was an empire, that ukrainian culture, and ukrainian classical literature, which was not published abroad and was not known about , it existed, it existed and that, in fact, meletius smotrytskyi and his trenos are the same european literature as the goeths and as

the works of ancient german philosophers, that is, in principle, my mission is more educational, although i try, when i can, to collect money for humanitarian aid to ukraine, and i accept invitations to almost any conversations, discussions, conferences, where i can speak about ukraine and explain , why ukraine is worth knowing much more about it, gentle. now, nevertheless, this is now my ukrainian mission, nevertheless, i will ask you personally what it means to be ukrainian, until recently before the war, some believed that it is enough to correctly answer the question whose crimea is, is that enough today, to be ukrainian is, first of all, to pay taxes in ukraine, to have a ukrainian passport, to respect this passport and to be proud of the fact that