[000:00:00;00] union, it is literally the same thing that can be said, for example, about president zelensky, only to say that he is a ukrainian, instead of an american, yes, yes, and this is a question that there must be some kind of gradation here, that is, for you there are some russians , for example, the writers you sit down with, at the same table, not in canada, not in the united states, not anywhere, well, i think 99.9%, uh, uh, especially, especially after i read an open letter of support for putin and his war in ukraine, signed by five hundred russians writers, there were many of your acquaintances with whom you spent good time there, thank god, there were no acquaintances there, nevertheless, if we take even such people as the same chhaartishvili, takunin, these people

seem to be enough, let's say . so cute, but they also have a lot of this imperial narrative in their works, i think that everyone understands about akunin, and he himself, by the way , wrote about the fact that, what he understands, that in his works there is a glorification of the russian of the empire, and that, too, is the reason why with him, if to sit down for a conversation is to sit down for a conversation and talk about what he is guilty of, because... cultural narratives, and his texts are precisely cultural narratives that were read by millions of russians, they raised love for the russian empire, they raised , this is the desire to be useful to the empire and serve it, but this is a literary topic , and it is not suitable for conversations during the war, anyway, sofia andruhovich, in an interview

recently, said that we should not help the russians to understand with their guilt complex, somehow she is like that said, do you agree with this, i agree , there is no point in talking to russians for the sake of russians, i read this interview, i liked it very much, but to talk to people who may have some relation to russia, but to talk for the west, in order for them to speak for the west, ee pra... things, that is, the truth, and not try to build new narratives, it is sometimes necessary, and in fact, such russians with whom you can talk, or representatives of russian origin different countries, there are very few of them, that is, we are talking about units, not tens, you know, we had an idea and we even won

funding before the war, but the war prevented it from being implemented. to make a documentary film about the ussr precisely because it was an empire, a great empire of lies, there are already a lot of archival documents that show how powerful these disinformation committees were inside the kgb, and it was a whole doctrine, precisely using disinformation, or now we would say fake, news, fakes, botfarms and so on, destabilize, enemies. let's say countries, blocs, the then ussr, moscow, and now, when we talk about the fact that the world must one way or another oppose, and we also oppose russian narratives, russian propaganda, we also see how different this propaganda can be, i.e. we saw that , for example, during the covid epidemic, the russians actually attacked the very ability to think critically, they attacked, that is, for example, the belief that vaccination helps

people. that is, they undermined the very foundations of, let's say, rational thinking as such in the world, but at the same time, if we take russian narratives, it is also , for example, dostoevsky, it is also turgenev, it is russian literature with its nihilism, with its disbelief in the ability of man to resist evil, for example, or with its to a certain measure by glorifying evil, even by its seductive power and justification of evil, eh, i don’t know, here is hermann hesse, for example, one of those writers who mastered this excessive fascination with russian literature and these motifs, for example, whether ukraine too, and we, as those who know russian very well literature, and also know the russians themselves well, can also be an alternative voice here, you know, this topic, by the way, sounds regularly now in europe and

america, the topic of the influence of russian classical literature on worldview and behavior russians, on the mentality, that is, nihilism and fatalism, which were preached even before dostoevsky by other writers, they are the reason that there is no opposition in russia, there are no protests, and even those russians who left russia as a sign of protest, they do not organize demonstrations against the war in berlin, they are holding demonstrations in support of putin, and here for me the most important thing is that this virus, fatalism... and nihilism, did not get into the cities of ukrainians, that is, fatalism for ukraine is a foreign, alien phenomenon, a foreign thought, and that is why ukrainians were not afraid to go out

on the maidan, and that is why in our country, i would say, civil society is stronger than the political elite, and practically civil society decides what to do. and then forces, when it succeeds, the political elite to do what society orders, more one point remains, but for me too, i think it is important, this is the question of who speaks today on behalf of ukraine, and you know, everything is simple with the athletes, they showed the best results there and at the end of the year went to the olympics, everything is clear here, we may not like something further there, there are not enough tendrils, then there was some pro-patriot. came to mind, but the question of who represents ukraine in the cultural sphere is, to a certain extent , simpler than it is, for example, who goes to

head embassies somewhere there, well, that let's leave it aside, but, if we talk about this moment, there are also criteria , this criterion is how many of your books have been published, in particular, how many invitations you receive from international organizations, institutions, and in one way or another you represent... ukraine today and represent it , i'm sure fine, although many people think that for example your conversation with heson was quite complimentary because someone wanted more flesh and blood in this conversation, probably, probably me, but the question is , really, i don't i want that, if it were me, they would take what i am for what is called evil now i will say that sometime in the 90s, ukraine decided that a ukrainian writer. can write in russian, but be a ukrainian writer , and in this category, this means that, for example, andriy korkov is a ukrainian writer and remains a ukrainian writer, for example, here in lviv ihor

klekh, who was also a good writer, and i read him in ukrainian , by the way, in yevshan zilla, while still a student in this legendary almanac, which was already very much worn out, to which kalyntsi once published, his translated, his translations. some works, but he has now become a member of the pen center of russia, and he lives in russia , in moscow, this is about the fact that we made such a choice, we made the framework much wider, in fact, what there is, what it means to be ukrainian, we greatly expanded this framework and we, we understood that being a ukrainian means, first of all, it is a political nation, yes, but there is also a certain one, we see in zelenskyi, for example, an example when prezi... zelenskyi very definitely evolved a lot literally three years of his statements about what is the difference and how he appears in front of television cameras today, this there is a very big, big, big step forward, and each of us has probably come a long way, i remember, in the early 2000s, i read

your interview, it seems to the austrian focus, where are you, where the journalist asked you, what does this trident mean, no, it was even earlier, what does the trident on the coat of arms of ukraine mean, and you laughed with him that no one in the end. who doesn't know, it's kind of like a fork, the question is, uh , how do we all change ourselves, uh, can we have some kind of unified narrative that means the interest of ukraine, which for you ultimately means to be ukrainians, to represent ukraine in one way or another somehow on the international arena, for me this first of all means to explain, especially now to a foreign audience... the history of this more than three-year war, that is, in principle, to explain that ukraine was independent, that ukraine

was democratic, when russia was an empire, that ukrainian culture and ukrainian classical literature , which was not published abroad and was not known about, existed, it existed and that in fact melettii smotryts and his trenos, it the same european literature as goethe and as works. of ancient german philosophers, that is, in principle, my mission is more enlightening, although i try, when i can, to also collect money for humanitarian aid to ukraine, and i accept invitations to almost any conversations, discussions, conferences where you can speak about ukraine and explain why ukraine is worth knowing about it much more than they know now, nevertheless, it is now its own ukrainian

mission, nevertheless, they will still ask, for you personally, what it means to be a ukrainian, until recently before the war, some believed that it was enough to correctly answer the question of whose crimea, or is that enough today, to be a ukrainian is, first of all, to pay taxes in ukraine, to have a ukrainian passport, to respect this passport and to be proud of the fact that you are a citizen of ukraine, the history of ukraine, know the ukrainian language, support ukrainian culture and now especially support the armed forces. what a great answer. thank you very much, mr. andriy, andriy kurkov, ukrainian writer, was with us today, thank you for watching this conversation, stay tuned

espresso tv channel. people and ideas that protect and create ukraine: the sixth forum, the future of tradition, ukrainian in the global world, ivano-frankivsk , october 14 and 15, discussions about the challenges of time and the projection of the future, meetings with writers-warriors, in the center of events is the performance of the nation by the frankiv drama theater , the annual meeting place of strong, honest and unique people, traditionally in prykarpattia. see in veter espresso, come to the events of the forum in ivano-frankivsk with the support of the ukrainian cultural fund under the protection of our military there are 20% discounts on longit cream in podorozhnyk bam and oskad pharmacies. there are 20% discounts on samples at podorozhnyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. no matter what ukrainians think, no matter what they talk about,

war still comes first. war and our victory. only for espresso from monday to sunday. completely different spheres of human activity. sports, health, politics, the return of crimea, military analysis, nine presenters, journalists, experts, opinion leaders. in real time, about the most current: events through the prism of war in author's projects on espresso. the roof is a project about the feeling of home, about our roots, about identity. it was built by a child. behind us are my great-great-grandparents, the house. about what old ukrainian architecture brings to us today. good architecture is not necessarily made with the participation of an architect. churches, mills, houses, mazankas, it depends on us whether these spores will slowly fade into oblivion. wooden church. this is a phenomenon, indeed, it

is still alive here in the ukrainian village, are we still going to preserve our past, there is legislation, why does it not work, we have democracy there, whoever wants, whatever and makes ukrainian culture, about ukrainian folk architecture, its features and ways of salvation in a documentary series from the roof designer, on saturday at 11:15 on espresso. join in to the community with a ukrainian view of the world, become a sponsor of the youtube channel, which means access to exclusive content, personal thanks, pinned comments, special icons and the possibility of personal communication with the espresso team. click sponsor and become part of the community with a ukrainian perspective. collaborators who taught ukrainian to russians cities ukraine is a terrorist state,

we have been convinced of this since the 14th year. but how to sell your own conscience for small rubles and fake positions. our future is with the russian federation. we must know the traitors face to face, watch the collaborators program with olena kononenko every wednesday at 5:45 p.m. on the espresso tv channel. vasyl winter's big broadcast. two hours of air time. two hours of your time, two hours to learn about the war and what the world is about, two hours to keep up with economic news and sports news. two hours in the company of your favorite presenters, presenters, what to many, they became like relatives, as well as honored guests of the studio, the events of the day in two hours, vasyl zima's big broadcast, a project for smart

and caring people, espresso in the evening. greetings, friends, this is the worldview program, my name is vasyl zima, and for the next 45 minutes, in the worldview project, we will talk about how, under the conditions in which our world and our civilization exist today, democracy can, i wouldn't say win, but resist with dignity tyranny and dictatorship, you know what the parliamentary assembly of the council of europe has to pass now the resolution that recognizes vladimir putin as a dictator, that is, until now he was not a dictator, but now he should be recognized as a dictator, and in fact the russian regime will be called a dictatorial regime. and russia will join the circle of those states that are already dictatorial, in particular we are talking about iran, in particular we are talking about north korea, i will not talk about china, i have no information about what they have there, what form of government they have there, in in any case, i am only talking about those regimes that really today have all the signs

of dictatorial regimes, these dictatorial regimes have many advantages in terms of how to wage war against the civilized world against democracy, against what we call democracies, the absolute lack of control of the government... by the people, absolute, absolute freedom in making certain decisions, absolute disregard for the will of the people, losses, which this nation is subjected to in those wars unleashed by dictatorships, absolutely free , absolutely free opportunity to dispose of the finances of that state and the people in which they are, absolutely free opportunity to commit acts of terrorism on the territory of any state, to which they will be able to reach, that is, these are people who are the embodiment of evil , who have no warnings, reservations, rules, laws that could restrain them in their aggressive warfare, whether it is information warfare, whether it is economic warfare, or it, an ordinary war, a hot war, which we see today in ukraine, and the question arises, how can democracies, like democracies like ukraine

, like the united states of america, countries of the european union, australia and many other countries, confront them. .. to these dictators, what are the chances of victory, or then it is necessary to simply abandon these conventions, to abandon these conventions, to say that these democratic norms and principles are conventions that prevent us from fighting, and then simply exchange blows, and whoever wins will remain alive and say, well, now we are going back to the norms of democracy, we will live according to democratic principles, because again, well, there are certain principles in the mobilization of the population, in dictatorial regimes no one asks how many people need to be mobilized, they can destroy... actually half of their population , doesn't have it for them of no importance, there are certain rules, and there is such a suspicion or fear that democratic countries, or countries in which there are democratic rules and norms, may in the future give in, globally, give in to dictatorships, give in to tyranny, because they simply do not will be able

to respond adequately to them and adequately conduct this war, because again, if you spend a huge amount of money on war, and your population is simply begging, dictators. it doesn't matter to them, he begs, let him beg, well, you can't do that in a democracy, you have to take care of that there is enough money for everything, because there are certain rules there, and this is a very important topic, and we will talk today among the guests, the first guest whom i will involve in the conversation is serhii gromenko, an expert of the ukrainian institute of the future, mr. serhiy, i congratulate you, good afternoon, i made a small conditional introduction to our conversation in order to better explain to people why, i took this topic for our issue, please tell me, is it possible to say today that the war in ukraine started, well, it's realistic enough an era of confrontation, a heated confrontation between dictatorships and democracy in the world of two civilizations, well, in fact, one of which must

remain dominant, i would not reduce it to the question of civilizations, so as not to turn to some skeptics, because then we will have to admit... eh , that the russian civilization is, let's say, something separate, that is, to play along with the russian narrative, or to enter into a discussion, whether it is possible to write china and iran into one civilization, let us stick to the old terms, to the world of dictatorships and the world of democratic countries, and it is obvious that time from time they face and not because... there are some special conditions in the countries or some wrong leaders come to power, most likely we are talking about a certain cycle.

development and from time to time dictatorships feel the strength of democracies, as it happened 2,500 years ago, and 100 years ago, and 70 years ago, and now the time has come and now to feel whether these democratic countries and their democratic norms have not asked too much, tell me please the main goal today if we say let's get it right now who can we sign up today. in this new news of evil, about which is said, well, those countries , at least, which are actively participating in the opposition not only to ukraine, but also to our western partners, i know that the parliamentary assembly of the council of europe has, well, at least there the withdrawal of the resolution recognizing putin as a dictator, and obviously then you can will say that in the opinion of european politicians, the european political community, putin is a dictator, and his regime is dictatorial, so russia is a dictatorial regime, and it will then be possible to refer to the decision of an official body of the european union, but if we talk now, which countries could be called, or which regimes could be called

dictatorial, because i mentioned north korea, iran, well, russia, we expect a decision regarding putin, but i did not say about china, because i did not i don't know, honestly, i don't know, i'd like to ask you, look, the truth is that it's much easier to count, democratic countries, or at least countries with a regime of political transit to democracy that resembles a democracy, and 80% of the population continues to remain in the conditions of non -democratic, frankly tyrannical regimes regimes, so it is correct, if we are already talking about the axis of evil 2.0, to take into account the not so internal state of some country.

as a tendency to external aggression, because a dictatorial country that does not encroach on its neighbors, whose dictator does not lead a struggle for world domination, and there are even such dictators, well, at least there was one, who really sincerely cared about the development of the population subject to him, relatively recently, then we will understand what dictatorships are like, so what? it is an evil that has to be put up with, and more than that, an attempt the democratization of violent, all dictatorships, on earth, usually leads to other arguments, to completely different results , no matter what arguments we come up with or with good intentions, that is why this axis of evil 2:0 is , in principle, actually voiced by the americans, it seems that the state department has an official list. but let's still look more at real things, the main hegemon

of the authoritarian world, nowadays, the modern land is of course china, until relatively recently there was a soft dictatorship, regular change was expected, no more than 10 years rotation of the top leadership, but even then china did not show itself from the best side in relation to, let's say, national minorities , to traditionally this is tibet, in recent years the repression against the uyghurs in xinjiang has increased , but, relatively recently, breaking the almost 50-year-old principle, rotation, the new head of the people's republic of china, xi jinping, went to the third: a term that means china's final transition from a soft to a hard domestic dictatorship, and a hard

domestic dictatorship that does not involve rotation, that does not involve internal position, it usually ends with an increase in tensions in the external direction, well, because that is how it is arranged, and besides, in recent years, china has introduced some - of course, serious restrictions inside the country, the so-called social rating, something more reminiscent of totalitarian dystopias that have been spread in the west, so we can definitely call china a dictatorship, and there are fears that sooner or later china will resort to open external aggression, obviously, this axis of evil includes both iran and north korea, on the list of the state department there were several other african countries, some

of them have already fallen, and some remain, for example, eritrea, it is possible. to include in this list, north sudan, of course, and now whether we like it or not , russia and belarus have joined this axis of evil, and now they form such a big eurasian arc, from the borders of europe to, well, i don't even know, to south, to the south of the pacific ocean and through this axis of evil, obviously the problems around the world have intensified, dictatorships, these dictatorships are looking for support from each other, and unfortunately, as we see, for various reasons, they this they find support in each other. i am now adding igor chelenka, a political and economic expert, to the conversation, mr. igor, i congratulate you, i congratulate you, glory to ukraine,

glory to the heroes, but mr. serhiy and i will only speak until the 30th minute, so i will give the opportunity now there is one more question to answer, and you and i, mr. igor, will start on the 30th, we will talk there until two o'clock, well, but in any case, now i will give you the opportunity to say something, i just want more one question to ask mr. serhiy, and you know, here is a logical question, well, it is clear that democracy is also certain rules, but a person must develop, and democracy is what supposedly builds the whole society and the harmonious, harmonious development of society, it gives certain fruits and results, dictatorship - this is a completely different approach, there is central management, there is a rigid vertical, everything is clear, and people basically there is no development of the strong, science, personality, everything else, everything is somehow centralized, what, if we talk about this war that started putin, but me i think, from the submission of many of its partners, ukraine simply became a point, a point of application of force at that stage in the 22nd year, and what do these dictatorships want, they understand that economically they will not be able

to overcome the countries of the west, because they will not be able to have such development , and technologically, so let's just fill them up now like this, well, what, that's what you live for, democracies live, everyone somehow coexists, why start, this is the clarification of relations that will sweep, banal money, banal economy, no, the ultimate goal of any dictatorship is self-preservation, and at a certain time, i will not talk about iran or china here now, because these are separate cases, but there is no doubt about russia, putin's power is extremely, strongly tied to the expectations of the people, regarding, let's say, if not the greatness, or at least, the worthy place of russia in the foreign policy arena, and relatively full shelves in stores, russian society, having survived the 90s,

willingly supports internal anti-liberalism, in exchange for handouts, a table and early putinism from 99 to 2008 and after the more there it is the interregnum of medvedev himself, they willingly gave it to russians, took away their political rights, gave them a little more money, most russians who saw the world, well, at least thailand, they saw it during this period, not earlier and not later, and it is possible , maybe it established a certain consensus, but let’s say this, there is, there was, there was such a mutual understanding between the population, elites and putin regarding how it should be in the future, but under late putinism, as we

know, this, this flow of petrodollars seriously, russia began to gradually creep into an economic crisis, russia was experiencing: serious negative changes on its borders, well, at least this is what the russians imagined, first of all, i am talking about the ukrainian revolution of dignity, and in these conditions, the question of the survival of the regime, putin decided to solve it in a very simple , as it seemed to him, and amazingly effective way , due to external aggression, the big, big recession of 2008 in russia was overcome at the expense of... a five-day war against georgia, it turned out to be very, very effective for for of russian society and with almost no consequences for russia as a state, the problems with the swamp area, the problems with the ukrainian revolution of dignity, were overcome due