[000:00:00;00] eye to eye, and then this marker will be valid, but first of all, i am not talking about some selectivity, there are some god, spare the eyes of ranking, namely, that a person himself understands in communication that mentally he cannot return home, this a terrible choice, but it is better when it will be made like this, you know, carefully and honestly, yes, thank you , thank you tatiana, extremely touching words, and now i already see that roman vashchuk, a canadian diplomat of ukrainian origin, is with us. glory to ukraine, mr. ambassador, we congratulate you, glory to the heroes, i congratulate you. well, we are talking about one of the big problems. in particular, it is not only about the problem of return, not only about the problem of socialization of ukrainians who left for another world, the western world. it is about how we can make our country in close, so close

communication, i don't know. there is communication, but this is a matter of the state’s responsibility, so that the state wants those people to come and create such conditions for them, so that people feel, well, citizens of ukraine, not poor, beggars, although they are very often simply in such and such circumstances, well extremely difficult, but sometimes humiliating , so that the ukrainian state would make people say, i am here temporarily, and in six months or two months i will take the children and return, mr. ambassador, we ask for your word, look, historically there are two such views, they are represented here by two, two literary works, on emigration, one is a fireplace cross, textbook in ukraine , very tragic, it is the end of everything, and the second is sons of the earth, the trilogy is much longer, much less known in ukraine, both works

were written by people from the same confession, one - this is actually a tragic departure, and the second is a trilogy about life in a new land, and how people successfully coped even with endom, which is a rarity in ukrainian literature. so it seems to me that it is necessary to approach all this a little less sentimentally, to understand that yes, the war moved millions of people, but they went on a forced, let's say, international mobility, like you, ukraine must become positively attractive for them. ukraine survived for 30 years on what it was, i am sitting here in wroclaw, they said poles, barely tolerable. that is, people lived in ukraine by inertia, wherever they would go, and the state there did not care much about

making people's lives easier. states. will have problems, it will not be able to finance some incredible programs , and this may relate more to the work that i am now engaged in, that is, the business of the ombudsman, the state could put less of a stick in people's wheels, because i think that one thing , what aggravates people when it comes to ukraine is that they feel insecure, you said that somewhere there is someone may feel with them abroad, i think that the issue of humiliation is just as relevant in ukraine, in relation to law enforcement agencies, in relation to all fiscal authorities, unpredictability, the war itself, due to arrivals, due to various events, means

the military brings huge uncertainty. the state does not dare to add to this insecurity now, but for this it must rethink its role, it must rethink its approach to its own citizens, it must value them, uh, not despise them, and citizens must feel that the state takes care of them, or at least does not interfere with them, ukrainians are extremely self-reliant people, ukrainian business is extremely resilient, it is simply necessary not to hinder it, not to wait for the fact that there should be some grandiose mega programs, just ukrainians and entrepreneurs, ukrainian ones, in particular, will be absolutely delighted. i hope that myroslav varyk, chairman of the board of the public organization ukrainian home poland, an expert in the field of ukrainian migration to poland, a candidate for the polish diet. glory to ukraine, mrs.

miroslava, glad to see you, glory to the heroes, thank you for the invitation. thank you for what you are doing, in particular for the citizens of ukraine who are in poland. we are talking about millions of people. at the same time, i would once again like to thank the poles, yes. did an unreal lot, a fantastic lot, and they didn't do it out of compulsion , not even because someone asked them to, because they did it, listen, this is a unique story, when hundreds of thousands of people, literally in one day, started crossing the border, we we all remember what was done on at the border, at least we saw the reports here , it was not created anyway, thanks to poland, thanks to the efforts of the poles, it was not created... in the european union, something that resembled camps for displaced persons, that would be humiliation. poland took the first blow, the first wave, and it did it in an extremely humane and dignified manner, that is, the poles came out, gave out this tea, organized this

endless volunteer, this, this is cool, and here is the question, what now, how now, because what is going on here about the issue, well, of course, social fatigue, there is nothing strange here, he understands. that different people are coming, home owners can get a little tired, the polish state is not super rich there, i don't know how well the financial support mechanisms for temporarily displaced persons from the european union's coffers are implemented, that is, these are all very, very complicated mechanisms, i would like to hear from you, ms. miroslava, thank you, well, i can only tell you some data, that is, currently there are approximately one million ukrainians in poland, these are actually ukrainian refugees who arrived after february 24, it is believed that about 7 million crossed the border with

in poland, after february 24, of course, some of them returned sometime in june of last year, some of them went further, because now there may even be more than a million ukrainians in germany, and if we talk about the situation, now, well, the situation... is such that a part of those people, even most of the adults have found work, they are mostly women, of course children too, they, they too are still in such a state of temporaryness, and a little was said about it today, eh, and about why they would be in a state of temporaryness and why they do not return, that is, for many of them, not yet that the war is still going on, while the war is going on, until it is clear, for example, what the conditions will be for them, whether they can... return, and these are mainly people from the cities of kharkiv, dnipro, zaporizhzhia, that is, also those of mariupol, yes only those who are currently under occupation, and for them, well, actually not really, the decision has been made

whether to return, it is actually a very difficult decision, because some of them have nowhere to return, and for many it is also such a challenge, because they work in fact, below their competences, below their education, they work... so that they can live, and here returning to financial support, at the moment in poland there is a possible one-time support of 300 zlotys, this is no money in principle, plus an additional 500 zlotys per child, if someone has a child, of course, if there are older people or, and they or mothers with many children in a difficult condition have the opportunity to receive social support, but in total for the past year, if i'm not... actually

receive as social benefits, so here , you have to survive on your own, you have to look for work, and yet most of them are not included in such a procedure, for example, nostrification of a diploma, recognition of qualifications, since this is a complicated and expensive procedure, and which means that they still hope to return home, and here , of course, the longer the war lasts, the more they also show the situation in other countries, where, where there was a war, unfortunately, people increasingly decide to stay, and so actually how many people will be left we don't know because it will depend on whether they will have a place to return to, whether their family members, for example, will say , after all, let's live where the child goes to school, where, well, these are also important factors, you yourself understand, if someone has already integrated somewhere, has a school, an education, it is very difficult for them to pick up the child again and come back, so i warn us very much here, because i think it is not worth it, i know that we all have a sense of guilt, each of us,

me, why me, i'm not in ukraine, i'm here, i've been here for 20 years, each of us for some reason, well, you have feeling of guilt, it seems to me that for now it is worth accepting that there are people who simply cannot return, for them these first days, even the war, are such a trauma that to this day we have not even gone to ukraine, because they are afraid of its bombs , they are afraid, so it is, well, for children, even more so, so for many mothers, actually it is not yet, not ri. they want the end of the war and are thinking about returning, and if we are talking about such a greater potential, then maybe i should emphasize that as of february 24, the majority of ukrainians, well, according to our research, 90% ukrainians who were in poland, and there are about one and a half million of them, got involved in helping ukraine, helping ukrainian refugees, all kinds of help to the ukrainian army, about 3,000 men returned to ukraine to volunteer for the military. so that also shows that there is a very close connection

between ukrainians living abroad and ukraine, er, unfortunately, if, also, that what can break the connection a little, is, in particular, er well, the children go to other schools, that is, in poland , there is no obligation for ukrainian children to go to polish schools. they can stay online, but unfortunately, this is already the fourth year online, and unfortunately , it is quite... it has a bad effect, it has an effect on children, and here it seems to me that if actually for the ukrainian ministry of education as well, well, if we , we created the ukrainian school, for example, but this is a drop in the ocean, because there are more, about 2,000 children are outside the system, they are online, there is no control over how they learn, they actually lose social competence, they lose the ability to learn even, and this is a very big problem, and here it seems to me that it is worth thinking more intensively, how three... those children in the ukrainian field, how, even if they

go to a polish school, how to support this, actually, that they are also in the ukrainian system, or at least support this , teaching the ukrainian language and culture, and here, if we are talking about public organizations, this is the majority of the ukrainian ones that are here, they are engaged in advocacy, and they create ukrainian schools, and they create saturday schools, they conduct cultural activities, that is, directed as citizens who ukrainians who arrived after the 24th, but also promoting ukrainian, polish society, myroslawo, the fatigue of polish society , if, yes, it is in the volume, but i can emphasize one more thing, except in the volume, in the volume, okay, but one way or another there is a very big thing, like political relations, and here, unfortunately, before that it was , it seems to me, it was more than even fatigue, because now, well, the grain crisis, then the election campaign, and it has quite a strong influence... on the desire to support among

polish society, that is why it is important here our political elites still have to think, well, not only ukrainian and polish, to think and be more careful, because whatever you create, it can be difficult to say that this is a positive thing, but let's say this, the fact that so many ukrainians came, so many poles got to know ukrainians, had them in their homes, their houses and accepted them, it built such ties, such cooperation, so it is very important not to waste it, it is such capital for the future, because we, well, we have a difficult history, but in fact, this is such capital, which is very important for our politicians and the polish did not waste it, and we, as a ukrainian organization, try to talk about it in all possible fields. thank you, miroslava kerek was in touch with us, and now i wanted to thank those structures and organizations that helped us hold today's very important discussion panel, which is not yet finished. we still have a few

minutes until 5:00 p.m., yes, so the forum is being held with the financial support of the ukrainian cultural foundation and the international revival fund. thank you, i'll ask for small ones, perhaps applause, and a literary and artistic meeting word in the war was financially supported by the ukrainian book institute. yes, and this means that they are working , perhaps not fully, that is, we understand that when we have a choice to finance cultural and educational, some other programs or to support the armed forces of ukraine, the choice is obvious, but at the same time we understand that the ukrainian budget, strangely enough, involves the ability to fund what is needed and the extremely important conversation that we have to make a country that those who were... forced to leave would like to return to, come on,

angelica, we have a future traditions, and of course, ukrainians identify themselves precisely because they have a rich history , a rich culture, rich traditions, but these traditions are being modernized because we live in a globalized world, because we are modern people, because we want a more comfortable life, than our ancestors had, and already for our comfortable life... we adapt both our traditions and the calendar, yes, even this, this year, well, it is also important, and it has affected and affects all of us. we are rebuilding, that is, we, we are now going through such a path in leaps and bounds, the war gave us all such a thing magic pendulum, maybe there was something we didn’t want to do, but somewhere they postponed

it, and then we will do it, it’s not out of time, and our culture in general is not in time, but it turned out that culture, oh, how in time, and without cultures without tradition, without the understanding of ukrainians that they are ukrainians, we cannot win the war, we cannot, because war is not only an armed conflict, war is a struggle for identity, yes, for identity, it is a struggle between good and evil, light and darkness , and we are here on the side of good and light with our wonderful traditions, er, me of course i cheer for our victory and i do not doubt for a second that we will win, but when people oppose , such things as where to give money, for war or for culture, well, of course, as a representative of culture, i will say about

culture, you will say about war, yes about culture, but i, i am a volunteer, i, i did not volunteer on february 24. tatyana and i first met at the front or in the front-line zone, since 14th we brought tons of books to the currently temporarily occupied territories, tons, i am not talking about the humanitarian, no i'm talking about a refrigerator and a bunch of necessary things that were simply necessary , and we did it, but we carried with us a song, a movie, lectures about ukrainian traditions, linguistic lectures, meetings with ukrainian artists, all this is important, and it is those people who came to our meetings, with whom we found points of contact, both emotional, and soulful, and spiritual, intellectual, they became snails who

put their life again in one shoulder bag and took it wherever they took it there, or this is for western ukraine, but look. to our friend from donnytsia and to my friend from luhansk friend and understand that, well, i know how they get from place to place, and the truth is, like snails, this one, you are a house that carries with you everything that is most valuable that you have, and if, it is so valuable, and people, a person will want to return, he will always find something to do in ukraine, because in ukraine, there are many opportunities , many, despite the fact that we live in a war, but we need hands, heads, hearts, a lot, a lot of everything, and when i hear from our forced emigrants, that they want to return, i am very glad, but i say, let us

wait, let us survive this winter period, it is always difficult, if it is in the spring, well, everything is fine , come back, we are waiting for you, and the horizontal connections between us , which each, each of us, in principle , is engaged in, they are very important, i also transfer ukrainian books abroad , we do, the territory is making a big christmas project, the territory of christmas, which is available online for any ukrainians in any corner of the world, we are now, it strengthens us a lot, it is not about becoming better, it gives us resource to live, less... claim to yourself, to the world, to your loved ones, to those on the left, on the right, because the main claim is global, it is large-scale, you understand it, and you let it out into the world, you follow that rage, you realize it bluntly at the front or in volunteering, because either in the armed forces or for the armed forces, and secondly, so that people return and feel comfortable

and be effective here, and these, as you rightly said, are people who can create a state by winning, they have to trust the state, i know thousands.. . or perhaps tens of thousands of ukrainians in passing, who do not make so many demands, to live here and be productive at home, they just want to trust the institutions of their state, well, rather yes, because the state is something too high and holy, we are talking about practicality, i like it, trust in the institutions of the state, there will not be so many complaints then , if we still work on ourselves, and then such a unique symbiosis turns out, so perhaps i am simplifying, but i already said that i want to convey this, because it lives in me, i try to practice it on myself, despite all my ambitions, crazy about that, i'm very assertive man, it gets in the way sometimes now. i work with it, it actually helps, and therefore, if we reduce this pretentiousness, and the state, institutions turn their faces towards us, and

this trust, so and so, somehow, if those institutions turned their faces towards us, well, such things regularly happen global facaps, and this has not been the last couple of years, that is, for as long as i can remember, it is not an endless cycle, and we constantly say that we must reform our state institutions, we must... shape our officials in order to the ukrainians did not leave, well, not yet the war, yes, but there was a certain atmosphere of lame institutions, they left with such wounds, and now they need to be healed, if they were struck by some of these palisades, of these fixed institutions, mr. ambassador absolutely rightly said, those who are trying to punish us , to catch up and punish us, we have already escaped, we have already completed the mission, maybe not for a little kostrubato , but to catch up and punish, not to talk, not to do the previous ones to us, to put this shoulder, but to punish, but again, now i am coming

to pretentiousness , i work with that, so no first with ourselves, then around, maybe we shouldn't demand some things so much, because we ourselves haven't reached this point yet, but of course, i completely agree, if there are some blatant such things, for example, i already believe in civil society , at least i have a part of society, if something upsets me so much that i can't sleep, well, i always can, of course, because i have to function, but i can't sleep, i know that i have activist groups where i will write and we will picket, we will go to organize public hearings, i now believe in these mechanisms, this is also an institution that the state has given to our toolkits, but if they are wider, then it will be more peaceful for people from far away to return home, maybe it will be more peaceful, well, this is not only about respect for people who left, it's about not only sorry about some such sentimental things , which there is no doubt, yes, because we, we are people, we sympathize with those who were forced to leave and who are unable

to return, but at the same time there are those who, you know, healthy or unhealthy sociological cynicism, that is, what will happen to our state if we have minus 10 million of our citizens , that is, people who left and did not want to return, i don't know if anyone is ready or if anyone has... the answer is either in the government or in the academy of sciences , or in the european parliament, what will happen to the state to which 10 million did not want to return, and these are not older people , usually, that is, they are young, active people who are able to work, able to work, yes, because the state and the labor market are , this is a failed national product that someone should do, olya sala, in general, i read research, there is people who think what will happen to us if those who left do not return, others will come, will come from those countries that are worse than

ukraine now, or at the moment when they will come, worse than ukraine, and by the way, here is an important point, culture, it is necessary, this is an inevitable process, we need to understand that this will happen and it is necessary that these people , coming here, over time understand that they are citizens of ukraine and become part of our great community. but still wanted to say more optimistically about what i am i believe that many will return and will return, i believe that this creative class, as they call it, that they will return, the fact is, now in ukraine there are many foreigners who also find, well, come here with different missions, and those with whom i communicated, they envy us, no wonder we, ukrainians, in our situation with the war, they say, you are so happy. here we are in this saturated europe, nobody needs us, we are just a statistical unit, we live well,

prosperously, we do, we are engaged in some active communities, we take a civic position, but we do not build a state, we do not change the state and we do not change the world in ourselves, we can come to you and fight for our ideals in your place, they envy ukrainians, especially those who will remain in ukraine after wars and will create their own state for which we fought there in previous years. therefore, i think that we need to show this perspective, and then those, those who have these most noble ambitions, they will not sit down, even in better conditions, somewhere in the west, they they will want to return to possibly economically worse, possibly more risky situations , but they will want to create this country, so i hope that miroslava keryk is in touch with us, ms. miroslava, is there any fault with us, there is no clue. i think we have literally four minutes left, so let's summarize briefly, that is, there are several key problems

, well, i say to myself, that is, there is a problem of a sentimental plan, there is a problem of a practical plan that must be solved, ambassador vashchuk very correctly said that it is necessary quickly reform, but at the same time we, you know, ukrainians, we, you know, previous negative experience tells us that the faster we start to reform everything, the more often we have an unclear result, that is , the speed of ukrainian reforms, it is sometimes impressive, you know, but their productivity does not always have a very a high coefficient of effectiveness, so here we hope for it, well, on the other hand, we understand that ukraine has the right to support its citizens, both inside the state and outside its borders, in particular, i do not know how well our state defends its interests people who were forced to leave, yes, but i think that there are international institutions that , well, miroslava kierek mentioned these amounts that people receive , for example, from the polish budget, not because the poles are so, i don't know, greedy, but

because they have been traced, and accordingly, there may be additional, you understand, in the organization of the united nations, additional funds that could be accumulated precisely with the help of certain return programs, i don't know, just how it should look in practice, well, that's already a question so to speak, to the specialists of social therapy, he spoke like this, angelica, let's finalize, a minute, not to lose contact with ukrainians, wherever they are , to continue our horizons... emotional ties, to unite ukrainians with the power of our love, to unite with power, yes with the power of love, everyone a ukrainian knows where his place of strength is, no matter where he tries to realize himself in a cool way, but he remains a ukrainian inside, and sooner or later, even if a person does not identify himself there well,

it will manifest itself in him, with victory there is a lot... people who can be there, as tatiana mentioned about people who are not very themselves now identify with ukraine, they will be proud of the victory, they will want to be ukrainians, because it is now fashionable to be ukrainian in the world, ukrainian, to be honorable in the world and now the most honorable title in general, to be ukrainian, i already said today that i am an optimist, and i hope , that a large number of... people will still want to return, and when i meet young people, i always instruct them, i say, be fruitful and multiply, do not be afraid that now is a war, because we still have to give birth, we must go on living, we choose life and victory, and we must win for the sake of living, and not just for the sake of victory

as such, bravo, bravo, thank you, anzhelika rudnytska, very much... i regret to end today's panel, i will remind our viewers and those in the hall , who worked today, tetyana pelypets, roman vashchuk, olga salo, anzhelika rudnytska and myroslava kerek, we discussed emigration and solidarity between the preservation of the ancient and the promotion of the modern. the varpatiya forum will work tomorrow as well, so you will see us on the air of the tv channel. 18:00 in ukraine, news time, on the tv channel espresso, in the studio of iryna koval, greetings to all viewers. during the day, the russians struck

kherson again, fired from the temporarily occupied left bank, and hit the area. one of