[000:00:00;00] well, in the urban space, in a democratic community, yes, when in the city, which is a security territory , they try to physically destroy the citizens, citizens of ukraine, and in the end they physically destroy, and they do not stop and they are ready to follow their idea to, until the end, no matter what this end is, it all sounds a bit with such a tight throat, but... but nevertheless, it was a very, very important experience for me, very formative, when i saw that, well, this loneliness is created , great loneliness, that we cease to be a bunch of passionaries, which is something moves somewhere, and usually crashes against the wall of national misunderstanding, that is, we really become a community, we grow up as

a community, we are very different people, but... we have the same basic great values, and this is what, i think, allowed us 10 years resist various forms of russian invasion and aggression, and in the end, well, it brought the situation to the point that they are trying to finally destroy us, physically, finally solve the ukrainian issue, as it was formed in the russian, imperial narrative voiced publicly, and it is also very strange that in the 21st century it sounds like absolutely czech nazi rhetoric, and nevertheless, in the space of the ukrainian idea, we still manage to stick together, and we continue to grow, we overcome a lot of growth diseases, we have a lot to work on, but

is crucial for me. really the backbone of knowing about ourselves, that we have a community, we finally have something to talk about with each other and we can trust each other, these are very, very important words, and there was one very subtle, very delicate moment , on which i would like to emphasize now, kateryna from... drew attention to the fact that really no one in the world was ready for such rhetoric, no one in the world was ready for not just rhetoric but genocidal actions. we found ourselves in a good world, in which, well, at least the european continent lived nurturing certain illusions, completely abstracting from what war is. in a few weeks, well, or

in a few days, i don't remember, verbally i spoke with andriy piontkovsky, yes, he was one of the few who said that yes, the war there will be, war is being prepared, it was perceived to some extent as conspiracy, someone quipped , and for him the main question was not whether there would be a war, whether the civilized world and the united states would be able to influence there, whether there would be a war with or without constables, but also here we are in a world where it is possible to return, or rather, the concentration camps have returned, yes, where it is possible to implement katyn , that is, to take and kill prisoners of war , the defenders of mariupol in the concentration camp, to kill the defenders of mariupol, that is, the military in the constabulary, this is the reality, until which no one was ready because everyone nurtured illusions based on the works of francis

fukuyama. and so on, that is, a world in which history ends and everything gradually turns to soft power, it turned out that no, wars have one animal face, and what happened in buch or in irpin, it is fundamentally no different from what happened during the 30-year war , which ended with the peace of westphalia, when it was recognized that nations have the right to exist and that it is not necessary... to apply what is called genocide, but that's all about it again forgot, pain can become an obstacle, walk with steps, not with my knees, from pain in the knees, try dolgit cream. kremgit relieves pain, reduces swelling and improves the mobility of joints, with dolgit cream, you can even walk, dolgit is the only yellow cream for

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greetings, dear viewers, it's time to learn about most important according to measurement data, viewers choose the ukrainian view from espresso. congratulations friends, mykola veresin, vitaly portnikov. good health to everyone. thank you ukrainians for your trust. espresso works for you. mr. vitaly said that, i think that most of us would agree with this, that the absolute majority of ukrainians did not believe that a full-scale war was possible, especially in 2013, well, i think that ukraine would then repeat the results of the kazakhstan poll . with ease, but i think it is important to understand that most ukrainians are not

believed in the possibility of war for various reasons, and perhaps it became possible at all, the beginning of the formation of a political nation became possible, because people who did not believe in the attack of russia for various reasons suddenly united, what i mean, one group to my credit , i was born shortly before the declaration of independence, and for me ukrainian political independence and in general a ukrainian independent state is a given, i do not know anything else, it was obvious to me, this is an independent country, of course, in the civilized world, to which i used to which i, well, i grew up in this, it is impossible, but the second group did not believe in the attack, because... because we are brothers, how come, we all lived together, all our lives, we lived together with russia, and they had the illusion of a peaceful divorce, that we practically remained a family, we simply parted ways, i even heard such

a phrase from people that i am for an independent ukraine as part of the snd. that is, what is the independence here, and here in 2013, what is happening is that both... groups, which in fact should have had, are surprised, they have a conflict between them, and they were surprised by what was happening, which happened immediately after the maidan, not ... the war, and these two groups together begin to form a political nation, i think it's important to remember that this was a moment of unification, let's say homos ethicists who had to get out of this state, and this was a very unpleasant rebirth and a very unpleasant realization for them, and people for whom ukrainian independence was a long time ago, and the question i wanted to ask all of us was whether this process of forming

the ukrainian political nation, if we in in november 2013, did you know what would happen next? a very good question, this is a rhetorical question, as far as i understand, this is a question that requires deeper reflection, and of course we have to worry about mr. vitaly now. everyone guessed who, first of all, i wanted to ask this question, i said in 2014, i already answered this question, i said that the ukrainian political nation was formed in several steps, the first step took place during the maidan of 2013-2014 , and geographically, this political nation united the inhabitants of the west and center of ukraine, because that was, i would say, the main driving force of the maidan, of course, when we stood on the stage and saw the flags there. of the people who came to the maidan, there were, it was

a different geography, from uzhgorod to yalta, but the vast majority of people who shared the idea of ​​this independent ukraine and a european ukraine, these were the western and central regions. the annexation of crimea, this is what you are talking about, it largely started the process of nation-building in the dnieper region, in the east of ukraine, because the people who lived in the dnieper region really... always believed that they not only have good neighborly relations with russia, it is not enough that they have equal relations with russia, because dnipro was, was the city in which leonid brezhnev and half of the members of the politburo of the central committee of his time were born, and these people believed that russians treat them with respect, but it turned out that it was not, well, that is, it never happened, but they simply saw it with their own eyes, finally, although they never believed in it, and the process of diffusion began in these regions

of ukraine, and with with the beginning of the war in donbas , the process of diffusion in the south began, simply because the people who lived in odesa and also believed that, well, russia, well, there is a great civilization, culture and so on, they understood that russian actions can simply create and turn odesa into donetsk, and that's how this diffusion took place, but for me there was also a good question that i asked everyone in 2013, how effective... can be a political nation out of fear, and here we got the answer to this question in 2019, so a political nation , that i the results of voting for volodymyr zelenskyi in all regions of the country, demonstrated that there is a political nation, and that it is integral, again from uzhhorod to senelnikov, but they showed us the quality of this political nation, that it is such an ordinary political nation, of central europe , ready to believe in any populist promise, in its own myths, that in these political

nations everyone invests in a person the head of the state has his own visions , which may not coincide with the visions of his neighbor, but they are all united in their choice, this is a very interesting, very interesting moment, and another very important moment - a moment of lack of self-awareness, if you like, i can also give this beautiful example, i would say not the ability to look at yourself through other people's eyes, but now many people in ukraine... i see it from comments on social networks and so on, i like what happened in karabakh, azerbaijan restored its territorial integrity in one fell swoop, the population, the separatists left here, and we do not even understand why the european parliament reacts in a completely different way than we do, they are our allies, and they almost unanimously propose to introduce sanctions against azerbaijan, what is this so are we we will de-occupy the territories, that is, the idea of ​​a civilized world is that the world in general is in the peaceful solution of the issue, not in war, and not at the expense of the interests of the civilian

population, and from this point of view, the consequences of the azerbaijani operation, they look the way they look for the globalized world, but it is not even that that is important, but the fact that russia looks at us just like azerbaijan looks at karabakh, we ourselves are such separatists, from the point of view of russia, and if azerbaijan solves its territorial issue by way, goodbye to everything the population that lives in the territories of ... and which is not very necessary, perhaps for the future construction of the azerbaijani state, and this is accepted, so why does russia not expel the separatists from those lands that it considers part of historical russia, we can of course say, that, unlike karabakh, we are protected by international law, well, we can enjoy this thought, because russia does not spit on it from the bell tower of ivan the great, on this international law and on whom it protects, russia believes that everything is decided by force, later, after force decides, it is possible to agree on a new

border, so to speak, and it is important that people cannot, cannot extrapolate what is happening around them. in the real situation, another great example, which already applies, i think, to the world's reaction to these events that took place, which i saw now, when i woke up and looked, why the israeli security forces were not prepared for such a massive attack by hamas, because the special services explained all the time that hamas terrorists are not economically interested in attacking israel, so nothing of the sort will be, this is approximately the same as what the west has been explaining to us all the time and to ourselves. explained, well, russia can't start a war, it's not economically interested, and when i told my german friends that the war would start in a week or two after the completion of the northern stream, they looked at me like an urban lunatic, people still can't understand, it's also a sign of this political nation we got and the world we

live in that for many economic interests don't mean much when it comes to realizing their schizophrenic fantasies, and we it is also necessary... to learn to live in the world of such realities, and to conclude this thought, a political nation is very good, in which world does this political nation live, internally in the world of its own ideas about life and externally in the world of ideas about what from , what can expect this political nation, these are already the following questions, rhetorical, so i would ask you to ask one more possible rhetorical question, i really like the way you formulate them, and maybe i will just add briefly, i... literally just continue what vitaly was talking about he absolutely gave an ingenious formulation about a political nation out of fear, and this is exactly what happened to us, in fact, and this is happiness in misfortune, let's call it that, in fact, i

remember the times of the late yanukovych in front of the maidan, it was some kind of thick, unelectrified air, like that which does not move. in which it is impossible to breathe and it is not clear whether , in principle, there is any future and how to formulate it, and i remember very well there, publications, public, statements of some of our intellectuals who spoke about what we, perhaps it is easier to give donbas there, for example, from the russians and build some kind of normal ukraine without him, that is, these are all the moments when it was easier to go, the way... not resistance, without making efforts to get to know each other and understand how we have to work with internal problems, and actually, when the war started, first in its crimean-donbass phase, and now

finally, we got mixed up and we finally got to know each other, and realized that actually the most important value is to be... ukrainian , all other readings are that should, in theory, smooth out a good education and political culture, with which a political nation should live, and this we always lacked a little, well, because there were no opportunities, again we talked about all these russian influences and the erosion that was brought here from in the middle for a very long time, very systematically, that's why actually... well, the 2019 vote, yes , is just a manifestation of the fact that there is a political nation, but there is no political culture, and there is no tradition of responsible thinking, and neither is strategizing for the future, that is, no one about it does not think, we will spend, we, we will do

such a ridiculous choice, let's try it, and if not, then we'll make another maidan and we'll drop it and do everything, all bullshit, come on, gentlemen, how are we, as some activists said, whom we've already been a little bit... and that's why now, it is clear that somehow, during a great bloody war, a hot phase, when some new great history opens before us, the cycle of this history, when the world enters another great bloody phase, to talk about education and the systematic building of political culture, it as if somehow a little strange, but all the same, if we try, in particular within the framework of... to think about the future, about writing, rewriting this future, because i have already repeated here several times that writing the future is, in particular, a recipe. that is, the components from which this future should be built, then we must

think about the fact that we are catastrophically lacking not only in-depth knowledge about each other, but also in-depth systemic knowledge about the world and us in it. i want to add one thesis that i think that what we have, what we have faced, is not today and not yesterday, but the day before yesterday, what we have to fight with is, if you will , the reactivity of the ukrainian nation and the reactivity. i always understood this from my own experience, because this was my question even in my childhood to many people who said, oh, if we were not persecuted, we did not think that we were jews, you know, in times of trouble and times of treasure, i think that i am a jew, and when you are not beaten and humiliated, i am a russian poet, well, who is that, but there are also stories, episodes, and that's why , actually, i'm very afraid of this, that in fact, at the moment of some depletion of resources by the war,

psychological, and the world will force us into a dialogue, and we ourselves, tired and partially destroyed, will somehow drift towards this dialogue, and then the next generation will actually have to go there again, those who are now 15, 16, 18 years old, will have to start all this to begin with, i am not sure that a political nation can be consigned to a case except in the case where it is a three-year-old lawn that has been watered and trimmed, and it is already in such order that it takes a great deal of effort to break it up, to destroy, but all the same, we also know the history of world democrats , parliamentarism, all this came about with a lot of blood and a lot of struggle, and sooner or later something will make its way from under this lawn, something that shouldn't be there. and actually, i also always think about the fact that we are talking about victory and reconstruction after victory

, what is victory, what will we call victory, exit to the borders, in the 13th year, restoration of status there in the 91st year, or we let's go there from sian don, what do we imagine as a victory, or just the day when the war will end for us as well, in particular the international one. some kind of truce with russia will be imposed, which, one way or another, will turn into a new war in 5-10 years, when they will come to finally destroy everything that they have not destroyed, taking into account their previous mistakes and increasing the next wave of mobilization and producing new weapons, therefore well, i 'm coming back, i don't, well, there really is no answer, but we see how ukrainian history fluctuates and fluctuates. you can analyze why this happens, but i

return actually to the question of education, me it seems that the actual study of history, er, public conversation about this history and about historical analogies, which are very shaky ground in fact, but often give many insights, can, well, give the next generation a little buffer, not protect it from having to do everything do it again, but at least give a little more... at the start , i think i interpret it a little differently, because when you talk about a political nation, for some reason you analyze it in terms of good or bad, and a political nation is just a political nation, that is hungarian a political nation, this is a political nation, yes, they vote for viktor orbán, and they can vote for someone else, in the pre-war period, they generally lived under the rule of the regent admiral hortsi, but they were simply in the hands of the hungarians, well, hungarians, well, they are hungarians, well, but, but there can be a political nation, i apologize for interrupting, effective or ineffective , a political nation can be effective, it can be

ineffective, this is absolutely normal for any political nation, but the issue of the ukrainian political nation was that the majority of the population here did not belong to this political nation, did not consider themselves ukrainians, as such we live there in the cis, and we are there in general, oh, we are khokhly, we don’t know here, what is the difference to us, what is the difference, well, what is the difference, why? and a political nation is not a nation in which, well, again, it is beautiful, now i will explain that it is easier for you to explain with jewish examples, because you do not take it personally, so to speak, and you are not offended, i will explain, i once wrote an article about a ukrainian jew , it is like a rare bird, said what is a polish jew? they are jews he may go to the synagogue or not, he may know whether he is going or not, but as a rule he knows the polish language, reads polish poets,

he can even consider the poles who are next to him. live as anti-semites, but he can definitely talk to them about all polish cultural or everyday problems, he lives in their world, and what is a jew in ukraine, well, he can go to the synagogue or not , believe or not, have some interest in jewish culture or not, and what begins next? it is in russian speaks, not ukrainian, as a rule, well, if he is not from galicia, relatively speaking, somewhere from the dnipro or from odesa, he is russian-speaking, the great russian culture, oh, it is almost ours, but not ours, but still ours. and there it is, ukrainian jews, not ukrainian, we saw ukrainian jews, only when the ukrainian political nation began to form, i remember very well when i met ivan fedorovych drach, er, in the late 80s x, in the early 90s, i ran in like, oh, i was doing some kind of interview, and i say, oh, i dream to ivan fedorovych that people of all nationalities, in ukraine

, jews, tatars, and armenians will speak ukrainian, and he looks at me and says: well, vitaliy, well, we can somehow do it so that at least at first we ourselves the ukrainians spoke, i suddenly realized that this is a political nation, you know, a political nation can be ineffective, but it is important that it exists, so that all of us, living here on these ukrainian lands, consider ourselves ukrainians, and not ukrainians. and this is question number one, question number two, about liberal russia, your love to the ukrainian people, you are honored, but it seems to me that you do not understand it very well, liberal russia will never absorb ukraine for the simple reason that liberal russia can never have the great authority of the ukrainian people. the most popular politicians of the ukrainian people, until the moment when we were attacked, were boris, vladimir putin and oleksandr lukashenko, and not any

liberal russia, but boris yeltsin, or some liberal russian. politicians have never enjoyed the great love of the ukrainian people, this will continue to be the case, believe me, because we, when we talk about a political nation, this is not a liberal political nation , i'm sorry, so a malatinina can come, gather a small circle, listeners and viewers, you can even go there, look at her, but believe me, the majority of people who live in some conventional place odessa, absolutely not interested in any latin and all these other people, not interested. the russian-speaking intelligentsia may be interested, but again, if we build a ukrainian-speaking world with you, the same thing that unites us with the russian liberal and illiberal intelligentsia, common language, because you and i go to polish thinkers or cultural figures, we listen to them without an interpreter, who listens to them with an interpreter, but they cannot

absorb us, because they are foreigners, all people, which today... a huge number of the ukrainian audience listens on youtube, they listen to them because they understand what language they speak, imagine if these were people who spoke english or polish , they would say the same thing with subtitles , what kind of audience they would have, and yes, oh, any expert from bahrain who speaks russian, any colonel there, who once saw putin's shoes under his pillow, is already a great authority for the ukrainian people, because barin, barin vratni... wake up and that's it it will go, leave, that is, as the russian language will give way to ukrainian, russian civilization, culturally ukrainian, so it will give way, this is an absolutely normal process, and i honestly do not really imagine the emergence of some liberal russia that will rule russia itself , well, again, i'm 20

years i lived in russia, i noticed that liberal russia... absolutely not , i will say, is not ashamed of its marginality, it is even considered a kind of advantage, we are really like that here in moscow, oh, oh, and, and you, and you do you know what they are like in ivanovo, oh, well, we will never go there, who am i, here i am, you , you know, my colleague, who worked for 30 years at a liberal radio station in russia, tells me, i just now, she already long. he does not live in russia, he is only now beginning to understand what a terrible country this is, you have never traveled, no, why, if you haven't, well of course, we traveled from yasinev to medvedkovo, a good trip, and i went to orekha vazuzuyevo for a long time, i still remember that i needed to buy a travel guide for georgia somewhere at the medvedov metro station, i