[000:00:00;00] and russia as much as possible, and he did not change the political system, because he knew that if russia rises, russia will make the west dependent on gas, russia will become rich, then someone like stalin or putin will be found in that system and will try to restore the soviet union, and this is exactly what is happening , which i predicted. are you personally acquainted with putin, maybe we met somewhere, talked once, once at yeltsin's funeral, we saw each other briefly. what impression did he make on you? at that time it seemed that he was a smart politician, certainly a russian one a patriot, but it seemed that he is modern , that he understands the modern era, that goals and objectives are achieved not by wars, not by attacks, not by fear, but by political methods, so it seemed to me then, that is why i supported him, understanding what a difficult task he has to lead such a big country, but when i realized that he thinks differently, in the old russian style, i stopped

understanding and supporting him. did you talk to him at the funeral then? we talked, yes, but very briefly, i hoped that we would see each other again and talk, but we did not succeed. what do you think? under what circumstances can putin use nuclear weapons, or are these just empty threats to raise the stakes? considering his character and what is happening, he can do it at any moment. he understands that if he does this, he will die, it will turn against him, and then the whole world will be against russia, and russians and russia have no chance anywhere in the world if this were to happen. he can kill even 10 million people, but the rest will be enough to destroy russia. does poland now feel a real threat from russia and belarus, it must be remembered that if poland had not managed

to escape. then we would be in the place of ukraine, we would have a war with russia, not ukraine, for those reasons, we help and support ukraine in this way, because it is in the same misfortune that poland could be in and would definitely be, and finally , we have information that president volodymyr zelenskyy in his evening address confirmed the use of atakams by ukraine, i quote, today is special. gratitude to the united states, our agreements with president biden are being implemented, very much being implemented aptly, you have shown yourself like that, the end of the quote, and we will put an end to it in today's broadcast, see you, as always , on svoboda live, don't forget to subscribe to the youtube channel, like and

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10% discount . no matter what ukrainians think about, no matter what they talk about, war still comes first. war and our victory. only for espresso, from monday to sunday. completely different spheres of human activity. sports, health, politics, return of crimea, military analytics. nine presenters are journalists, experts, opinion leaders. in mode real time, about the most current: events through the prism of war in author's projects on espresso. every week, the saturday political club helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, host of espresso and invited experts. based on facts give their assessment and forecast of the development of events, want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday politics club, every saturday on espresso. the war in

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12:10. greetings friends, my name is vasyl zima, this is the worldview program on the tv channel, for the next 45 minutes we will talk about something important, the topic that i have chosen for our conversation today is the war in israel, the roots of the conflict that has been going on for quite a long time, and vision of a solution to this, well, it is difficult here to say the problem, the vision of the solution to this problem of war, i would say yes, can it be solved at once, or is it in any case a conflict that will continue and continue and continue only with greater or lesser intensity, and the palestinians who live in the territory the gaza strip, in the south of israel, on october 7... invaded the territory of the state of israel and began this invasion with a fairly massive hacking attack, which disabled certain defense organs of the state of israel and actually allowed

the enemies to enter the the territory of israel and, in fact, unhindered to engage in the massacre of the civilian population in individual kibbutzim, which were again located in the south of israel not far from the gaza strip. in addition, they were shot, brutally shot, spat on, destroyed, raped, beaten, chopped up, the supernova festival, which again was a riot, was held in the desert, in the south of israel, and this show of brutality reminded us of the footage we saw in buch, in the south, in vrpina, in izyum, what the russians did to the enemy, they have mind you, on the territory of our state, there is such an allegedly not... surprising war, which has not happened for 50 years, in 1973 there was a so-called doomsday war, well, it happened again, and it actually continues to continue, the end so far and

the end this war is not visible. we will try to understand what the palestinians want, or those behind them, what hamas wants, first of all, what the palestinians who supported hamas want, what israel wants, who has what rights and how this situation can be resolved, if possible. .. to settle it in a certain or certain way according to with the help of international organizations, some kind of dialogue, or everything will be decided by weapons on the battlefield. vyacheslav likhachev, historian, member of the expert council of the center for civil liberties, is in touch with us. mr. vyacheslav, i congratulate you. good day. you know, when some people who, well, have not delved particularly into the history of israel, into the ancient history of israel, into the history of the palestinians, ask who the palestinians are, then it is worth saying that this is history. quite a long time, this is the people that appeared from the ancient people of felestymlians, who are still in to the old testament, these are the flesh-and-blood people who at one time were buried under the ruins of the temple by the israeli judge, samson, when he destroyed that temple there, well, this story is quite long,

it somehow passed through centuries, millennia, passed into our times, let's outline a little for our viewers, here are the roots of the confrontation between israel and palestine, yes, well, we don't say now. specifically hamas , because it is not only hamas militants, it is the ideology of many people, palestinians who live in the territory of the gaza strip, and where does it start and how did it get to this point tense and still unsettled situation in our days, to put it briefly, of course, modern palestinians have almost nothing to do with the philistines mentioned in the old testament, just a name that was used by the jews, in biblical times, then used in the times of the roman empire to indicate, as simply the name of the province, and by the name of this territory, the arabs, a part of the arab people who live in this

territory, received the name palestinians, already in the 20th century, and partly, as a response precisely to the creation of the state of israel, and in opposition with the jewish zionist project, a palestinian national identity emerged on the same territory, which in a certain way differs from the general arab one, and the general arab one, in turn, split into the egyptian national one, the syrian national one, and so on, that is, it is a part of such a larger community, a part of the arab people , which lives in the territory of palestine, in the territory of modern israel, and which for the last generations, identifies itself with this name and has a palestinian self-consciousness, if you try, well, with

partly from this background with... the roots of the conflict are clear, of course it is not about an exceptional religious conflict of biblical times, it is about the self-determination of two peoples on the same territory, it is rather something similar to the struggle of polish and ukrainian nationalists on the territory of volhynia and palsia in the middle of the 20th century , than to some biblical-religious confrontation. but religion began to play a more significant role with the decline of pan-arab nationalism, after the second world war and with the emergence of independent arab states in the post-colonial era, they proved unable to cope with the state of israel , secular secular arab nationalism in a certain way stumbled on israel and lost

its appeal to the population as a mobilization project, and somewhere starting from the 70s and 80s of the 20th century, this conflict - began to acquire more religious such ideological features, because religious islamism, radical islamism, began to become popular. more, both in the region, in general, and among the palestinians, who considered themselves wronged, who deprived of their own state, their own territory, their own rights, and this is what led the religious extremist group hamas to seize power in the gaza strip in 2007, in contrast to the official such on... legitimate leadership of the palestinian national administration on

the so-called west bank of the jordan river, that is, in judea and samaria, where the chairman, or president, the head of the palestinian national authority, mahmoud aabas, sits in gremal, the palestinian national authority, as the officially recognized representative of the palestinian people, in turn, recognized israel's right to exist at all, a dispute between the palestinian national authority. and israel in the borders, in who owns jerusalem and its city world , in some other details, but in general the palestinian national administration agreed that israel generally has the right to exist in this region, it is only necessary to divide this territory according to the model of the so -called two states for two peoples, this is officially such a short concise name of the project the creation of an independent palestine, a project under supported by the international community and which

corresponds to the decision of the former un general assembly. hamas, in contrast to the official representation of the palestinian national administration, does not recognize israel's right to exist at all, and the hatred that is nurtured in the territory under the control of hamas and the local youth and the radical part of society there... leads to those horrors , which led to the october 7 invasion of the israeli territory by the grouping of hamas, they have the goal of killing as many israelis and jews in general as possible, because the leadership of hamas called for the killing of jews all over the world, and they do not recognize the right of israel to exist at all, and here no compromise can be reached, and it

seems that everything is going to that that israel will simply by force, sweep away, clear the gas sector from the hamas government and that the main question will be what to do with this territory and with this population further, most likely, it is about handing over this territory, as it was before 2007 under the control of the palestinian national administration, but what are the possible guarantees of not repeating the scenario of the return to power of the extremist movement, part of the palestinian social movement for liberation, this is a question for both israel and the palestinians, as well as partly for the international community, but i want to understand, well, you already said about this is the invasion on october 7, but i won’t, i don’t know, i don’t know, i didn’t read

materials specifically about possible actions during the so-called doomsday war, which was still going on in the year 73, such atrocities what we are seen in some kibbutzim and at the supernova festival that took place in the south of israel, all that is described, and severed heads and , well, a video, when a militant just walks around the kibbutz, but i rewatched a fresh video yesterday, and he just shoots people, someone at home, someone went out into the street, it's the same thing we saw in buch, it's the same thing we saw in irpin, in izyum, in kherson and so on, that is, in many cities of ukraine, what the russians did, which by the way just like hamas, their leadership does not recognize ukraine's right to exist, theirs propagandists, of course not official persons there, well, official persons are veiled, propagandists openly say that we must destroy ukrainians, the more ukrainians we kill, the better it will be, that is, this is the absolute ideology of russia, the absolute ideology of the so -called ruskomir, this is actually the same ideology of hamas in relation to israel, the more we are, the more of them we need to kill

, then we will live well from it, that's why we see it, but whether there were similar atrocities before, or whether it is now, again, it is worth understanding , why, if you have a goal to achieve, conquer territory, weaken the enemy's armed forces in order to conquer even more territories, you act against the armed forces, you act a little differently, yes, well, these are completely different military and tactical actions, but they acted precisely in order to terrify, frighten and show the world picture of these atrocities , why do you think this happened, how can it be explained, and again, the question logically arises, was there any, maybe, maybe there were some instructors... from abroad, who encouraged hamas to act in this way ? there are several aspects here, well, firstly, regarding the war doomsday in 1973, then israel fought with the armies, with the conventional armies of the states, and they compare the invasion of hamas to the territory

of israel with the doomsday war, because it also captured the military and political leadership of israel from nenatsk, and also the first... day -dva was very successful from the point of view of the actions of the syrian and egyptian armies, then israel tried to repel them, but then it was a conventional war between the armed forces of different countries, first of all its purpose was, of course, military, and so there too, of course, the civilian population was affected, but most of the dead were definitely soldiers. who first met the enemy, who tried to stop him and finally stopped him, in contrast to the hamas raid, when despite the fact that this is how they began to capture military bases, but according to the available data, the actual combatants of the military make up

about 10% of all victims of this terrible attack, then the purpose of this attack was to kill and take hostages, this is such a bandit raid, not an invasion of a conventional army, hamas did not aim releasing to seize some territories, he did not aim to launch an offensive and liberate there, as they believe alkuts, that is , jerusalem, or the territory of tel aviv there, they aimed to kill and take hostages, if we are talking about the influence of a foreign factor on these atrocities and some instructors, then everything here is quite transparent , we know that hamas as a fighting structure was formed, with significant help and technical guidance, including instruction from iran and

the islamic revolutionary guard corps, this is clear, but this is more about the technical side of their actions, as for their style, so to speak, they were obviously very strongly influenced by the actions of the islamic state, in the year 15-16, they saw in this a certain example of how it is possible to impress, terrify such a western-type society with which they are dealing in israel, well, besides , as i said, this, systemic tostrakhovo, education of hatred, hamas in the gaza sector, this is actually the fact that a large part of them there are... young people who embraced by this movement, who is in the ranks

of this movement, she considers the goal to be simple killings, there is no rational goal to create a palestinian state, so that hamas has ruled gaza for more than 15 years without any israeli control, if they wanted to create a state, they have a certain, well , one, if you can symbolically compare singapore, but somehow singapore is not visible from gaza . because their efforts were not aimed at the development of the economy, not at the development of education, the system of social protection, health protection, their efforts were aimed at increasing military capacity, at strengthening the missile arsenal, at building bunkers and fortifications in case of a land invasion of the israel defense forces and on... hiding this spirit of hatred for all jews, which is not limited to the territory of israel

, and it is very telling that the official head of the political wing of hamas, khaletashal, who is, by the way, not in gaza , and he is sitting in qatar, he called for the murder of jews all over the world and for a worldwide pogrom, i quote him verbatim, that is, literally, this, murder, as a certain' religious goal of this religious-radical movement has become such an end in itself, it is not a means of achieving the goal , the liberation of the palestinian territory and the creation of a palestinian state, that is the goal, and dying by killing is also an end in itself, is also the goal of these terrorists, because they believe, or are raised to believe, that by dying in battle

, and they consider these terrorist acts to be a combat operation means for a person to go to heaven, and that is exactly what they are going for, and they do not have a longer-term perspective, they do not really think that these methods are rationally justified, no matter how cruel they are , but have some their rational... purpose is the very killing and destruction of the jewish people and the state of israel. you know, this reminds me of the ideology of the bolsheviks, this is their well-known song, что мы пойдём за vласть советов и как он другием и частов и как он он между in the struggle for this, for this, which no one particularly understood, but we are burgeoning in the name of everyone, fanning the world fire, it was the ideology of the bolsheviks , who, well, you don't understand why you should go to finland, seize lithuania, latvia, estonia, invade ukraine, poland, but it was, well, there in germany they tried to fan the revolution more, no they managed to get into spain, then afghanistan, and so on, there was vietnam, korea

, well, that is, there were soviet, soviet troops everywhere, plus i am not talking about the countries of africa, the present-day america, cuba, but this is in the struggle for eta, well, it was such an irrational hatred for everything around that is not like you , here we see, you and i came to an end, well, thanks to you, of course, i did not come to it, you came to such a conclusion, well, we can conclude that this is completely irrational putin, no matter how irrational he is in his hatred of ukraine, because he is losing more now than he is gaining, but still there is a certain imperial, ideological, economic goal, he has it, well, at least he had it before the beginning of this invasion, now there is probably not much left, but putin for all his inclinations, somewhere in him can be traced some practical, practical component of his war against ukraine. here, as far as i understood , there is no practical component, because the people, the pipes that were allocated to them for... the race , the european partners cut and made of them rockets, well, obviously they have no purpose to develop, as you said, no economic way, so i, well, we have very little time left

, literally a few minutes, i would like to ask, in your opinion, what the solution to this issue can be now, today joe biden is supposed to be in israel, by the way, well, this is another high-ranking visit , burbok is already there, and this one, urslav fonden and blinky, well , now the president of the united states has arrived, will a solution to this issue be found, or do you think that his will still try to put an end to it to this horror, which is contained in the hamas organization in the south of israel, a point in the palestinian-israeli conflict in general, it is in general. of course, he will not put an end to it, but the attempt to put an end to the history of hamas, of course, we are now watching with you, unlike previous conflicts and clashes with hamas, now israel will not stop, no international community, no biden will stop israel, in the destroyed,

elimination of hamas from the leadership of the gamkaza sect, as i said. the biggest question is what will happen next, how will the leadership be settled sector of gaza after the removal of hamas from power, well, of course, the price of this, how many more civilians will die in gaza , how many hostages who are currently held in gaza will die, how many more israelis will die in this armed conflict, but after the horror of october 7, israeli society inside , it just doesn't work. other answers to the question of what to do with hamas, except to destroy it as an organization, at least to destroy it as a de facto government in the gas sector, forever this threat in this form, well to destroy,

to stop, it will not solve the problem in general, from this, the state of palestine will not appear on the political map, but it will bring the creation of a palestinian state closer, because for the past 15 years no more negotiations with the palestinian national administration about realistic steps towards the creation of a state made any sense, because the palestinian national administration did not control this territory , which theoretically belongs to its jurisdiction, that the palestinian nation was divided, in a way this idea of ​​two states for two peoples has already been realized within the palestinian people, the people in gaza got the government of hamas and their islamic state, the people in judea and samaria on the west bank of the river and agdan got mahmoud abbas and some autonomy, at least after the removal of hamas from power in gaza, some stability in the region, it will come,

it will come, but again the question of the price of this. the option is very acute, how long will other arab countries observe the humanitarian catastrophe that we are all observing in gaza, then the water to gaza came through a pipe from that israel, which they hamas wanted to destroy and which now almost cut off water supply, electricity supply to gas, what will be the price, will it not intervene... in the north, another proxy force of iran hizballah, will iran not intervene directly came from the islamic republic of iran with a threat that in the event of a ground operation, they are forced will intervene, and the efforts of the united states, among other things, are aimed at

preventing such a development that could lead to a significant regional conflict, as well as international efforts, including the united states, they are aimed at that with the help of other arab countries that can act as mediators, the same qatar, where the leadership, the political leadership of hamas is located, and which previously also sponsored the hamas movement in the qazi, in order to help release the israelis. who were captured by terrorists and in a certain way to bargain for the scale , well, to reduce the scale of israel's military operation, currently israel does not enter into negotiations with terrorists, but of course, all these