[000:00:00;00] people's deputies, unfortunately we have not finished the discussion of the agenda today, thank you all for the productive work, now i announce a break in our plenary session, unity is our strength, together to victory and glory to ukraine, the topic of collaborative activity, more precisely, responsibility for collaborative activity , it was raised a long time ago, even before the large-scale invasion there were several draft laws. about collaborative activities, which were never considered by the verkhovna rada of ukraine, because it was believed that it was probably not very important, and only after the large-scale invasion on february 24 of last year, the verkhovna rada was forced to respond urgently to the change in circumstances, it is worth mentioning the work of the law enforcement committee, in those difficult days, everyone remembers what happened at the end of february, at

the beginning of march, but... we then managed to develop a number of draft laws , including, we wrote article 111 of the criminal code of ukraine, which is the so-called collaborative activity, and at the historic meeting of the verkhovna rada on march 3, 2022, this law on amendments to the criminal of the code of ukraine was adopted and, in fact, since mid-march, when the president of ukraine signed the law and the law entered into force, the article of the criminal code is active, it is valid and works, a lot of proceedings have already been instituted for it, we have provided you with materials, you can look at the numbers there, that is, it is not even hundreds, it is thousands of proceedings, that is, in principle, the article works, but there are obvious shortcomings, and we understand that these shortcomings, of course, are primarily related to the haste with which the draft law was adopted, under what

conditions, and somewhere from probably the beginning, 23 years the law enforcement committee received very different signals from the law enforcement agencies, the office of the prosecutor general of the judiciary, the office of the public prosecutor, i think the cabinet of ministers, the ministry of economy addressed the fact that it would be good to work with the article in order to improve it, to settle the obvious ... shortcomings and gaps, while i will return to the beginning of our briefing, as the presenter said, there was no law on collaborative activity, there is no, and i think realistically, if we look into the future, it probably won't be, that's why we operate in this matter only with the relevant articles of the criminal code, and in fact, yesterday the draft law

called 10136 dated 10.9.23, actually on amendments to the criminal code of ukraine, with the aim of improving responsibility , was already finally registered . i will ask my colleague oleksandr bakumov to tell me the details, but i would like to separately draw attention to, in my opinion, probably one of the most important novelties of this draft law. discussion about responsibility, it is very much. very wide, manifestations in fact, there is a lot of collaborative activity, from some small, well, as it is written in the first part, there, denial , or support, of armed aggression, if a person does not know, likes something on social networks, some russian propaganda, or there, no i know, they expressed their support somewhere, and it is clear that there are social consequences, of course, but they are certainly not too

severe to the point of an activity bordering on treason, such as, for example, when a representative of law enforcement agencies or the judiciary of ukraine passes service in fake law enforcement agencies of the occupation administration, that is, the variety of manifestations of collaborative activity, it is very different , but i wanted to draw attention to one fundamental goal of the draft law that we are proposing, for the ukrainian criminal justice system, a criminal record, it is removed after certain terms, and while a person is considered with a criminal record, as you know, she is limited in her , shall we say, social activity or political activity, for example, it is impossible to be elected, there as a deputy of the verkhovna rada or local government, if you have a criminal record, we when everyone went to the parliament, you know, documents are submitted, you write not to judge, well done,

you can run for office, please. and we proposed, i believe, such a very elegant format, in which all persons who will be prosecuted for collaborative activities, regardless of the degree of damage, will be removed from participation in the political life of ukraine for the next 15 years, that is, we are making changes to the relevant article of the criminal code, which extends the term of non-expungement of convictions for crimes against national security by 15 years, i.e. once again we we arrive at one simple story: all those who committed crimes related to collaborative activities will not have the right to participate in ukrainian politics for 15 years after receiving a court verdict or after completing

a term of imprisonment, if there is such a punishment. i believe that this is absolutely fundamental, because the key goal is not just to punish the collaborators , the key goal is to create conditions for building a strong ukrainian government in the de-occupied territories, which, in my opinion , is impossible without... the state reacting to the manifestations manifestations of collaborationism. unfortunately, after february 24, the price of collaborationism increased greatly. these are no longer ideological things, these are no longer worldview things, these are activities that are directly or indirectly aimed at supporting the murders of ukrainians, mass murders, at supporting war crimes in support of the destruction of the country's infrastructure. all these actions cannot go unanswered by the state of ukraine. a separate point of our discussions, and why we propose to detail many details, is actually not the reversibility

of punishment, because it is first of all necessary for the ukrainian society, which should see that the state reacts, because we talked a lot with our colleagues, especially those who represent, unfortunately, temporarily. occupied territories, and they say absolutely clearly that if the state does not bring order, then lynchings are possible, and we must definitely not allow this to happen, so the more effective tools are in the hands of the ukrainian law enforcement system, the greater the chance that we will be able to bring to justice persons who committed crimes related to collaborative activities, and even more so the hope that we will be able to ensure the formation of a valuable ukrainian government in the de-occupied territories, because this is surely what we are liberating our territories for. i will give the floor to my colleague oleksandr bakumov, who worked just as hard on this draft law, and i will note separately that this is a collective

product, not only because there are many signatories, more than two dozen people's deputies signed this draft law, but also many members of our committee from completely different factions, there serhiy minko, maksym pavlyuk. many colleagues from the committee, others factions, yes, a lot of people worked, that is, as heads, the chairman of the committee also joined in, that is, it must be understood that this is collective work, and in fact we tried to be very balanced and weighted in all the positions that we propose, so i give the floor to oleksandr bakumuv, which will delve into, perhaps, the details of the construction of the bill from a legal point of view, thank you. dear petrovych, good afternoon to everyone, this draft law is indeed the result of the joint cooperation of colleagues, colleagues, on the committee on law enforcement activities, special thanks andriy petrovych, as well as minko, serhiy anatolyovych, they showed leadership

in this process, and around this process we managed to unite the efforts of people's deputies, members of the committee on law enforcement activities, as well as other colleagues who were very interested in solving those problematic practical issues that arose during the pre-trial investigation in certain facts, when we already understood that there was collaborative activity, but we have problems that we cannot solve in practice and we needed, let's say, the work of legislation on the already existing legislative norms, as already indicated, in march 2022, the parliament adopted a law on collaborative activity , which established criminal penalties for the relevant acts and, accordingly, began to qualify the actions of offenders and criminals, which was presented by the specified draft law, which today, accordingly to you

, it is assumed, as has already been very correctly indicated, very clearly and the main message, this is the deprivation of the persons who have actually committed collaborative activities, as well as all others crimes that are aimed... against the foundations of national security and, against the foundations of national security, respectively , the right to participate in political and public life, the right to participate in the management of e-e, directly involved in the management of state affairs, this is direct participation in public service , these are not only representative mandates for holding positions, in public service, in local self-government, etc., we are talking now not only about collaborative activities, but also about a number of these crimes that are directed against the foundations of national security, includes actions aimed at overthrowing the constitutional order, this is also a state crime, this is an encroachment on territorial integrity and inviolability, this is

an obstacle to the lawful activities of the armed forces of ukraine, as well as other military formations, this is an encroachment on the life of a state or public the perpetrator, that is, it is a separate complex, a separate section of the criminal code, on the basis that when a person is prosecuted for this block of crimes, he will be subject to appropriate special negative... criminal legal consequences, which was pointed out by andriy petrovych, in particular, that the terms of the expungement of a criminal record will be longer, depending, of course, on the commission of this or that criminal offense, and this is very important, since this, let's say, the institution itself expungement of a criminal record, it affects not only participation in political life, because it is also a limitation in carrying out certain types of activities, for example, if a court decision

prohibited a person from engaging in a certain activity, for example, a specific economic activity, whether to provide specific services, or, for example, to carry out some professional activity, a lawyer, a notary or an auditor or a private executor, that is, all this will be subject to the ban, and therefore this improved institution in the form of, let's say, the complication of repayment... criminal records are very, very important in the presented bill. moving directly to article 111 with the label one collaborative activity, we would like to single out and emphasize the fact that until today, article 111 in its parts one and two, provides for the main type of punishment only as a ban on holding certain positions or engaging in certain activities . that is, when in fact a person somewhere in a village or

settlement is reasonably suspected of collaborative activity, if, accordingly, for example, he publicly denied carrying out armed aggression against ukraine , or for example, supported the establishment and approval of a temporary, our territory, supported illegal armed formations there, we say that we can to such a person today, the court can to apply... punishment in the form of only restricting the right to hold certain positions, i.e. to limit, in this draft law we say that we introduce a fine as the main type of punishment, accordingly, and accordingly the court can already decide the question of which type of punishment to use, or, accordingly, impose a fine, or deprivation of the right to hold certain positions for a certain period of time, in particular, for example, in certain parts, this is a mandatory punishment and deprivation of the right

to hold certain positions. normalized accordingly the use of legal techniques, so that it is correct and that there are no grounds for individuals to be exempted from punishment due to the legal uncertainty of certain specific norms, well, in particular, for example, the concept of "occupational administration of the aggressor state" is introduced. previously, the criminal law norms called them as illegal authorities, created on temporarily occupied, but now this construction has been improved accordingly , also, accordingly, along with this, with the fact that we propose to establish fines as an additional and more severe punishment in criminal codes, we set their respective sizes, in particular, you can't say that they are small, they are essential, according to the first part of the already valid norm, a fine is set, i will tell you, for example, the figure in hryvnias, this is incorrect. regarding the legal norm, but it will be

clear to all citizens, it is from uah 51,000 to uah 85,000. according to the second part, this is the voluntary employment by a citizen of ukraine of a position not related to the performance of organizational-administrative or administrative-economic functions in the occupation administration, also if previously it was only a deprivation of the right to hold certain positions, again we must introduce a fine from six: hryvnias to 102,000 hryvnias and , accordingly, further and further gradually, depending on the level of public danger , gradation and strengthening are introduced under this article. responsibility, well, up to deprivation of liberty, as it was before, for 15 years, yes, up to 15 years, in particular, we also added, corresponding in the construction of the norms, if earlier, we had a citizen of ukraine carrying out propaganda in educational institutions, it's an old

build, we've also added more facilities health and recreation, places used for educational, sports and cultural competitions, and all these places... and with and relevant institutions, we have foreseen taking into account the practice that exists today, the information, yes, that we have, and the practice that was formed in pre-trial investigation bodies in order to maximally cover the entire pool where criminal offenses are committed, related to encroachment on the basis of national security, er, is no less important in part... the fourth, if earlier in our country it contained something that was forbidden the introduction of economic activity in cooperation with the aggressor state, as of today, not only the conduct of economic activity falls under the prohibition, we

also propose to add or the implementation of independent professional activity in cooperation with the occupying administration of the aggressor state in order to ensure the interests and needs of the aggressor state . what we foresee in independent professional activity is also detailed in the footnote to the criminal code of ukraine to the corresponding article, this is the provision of services lawyer, auditor, appraiser, expert, arbitration administrator, private executor, independent mediator, member of the labor arbitration, arbitrator, etc., that is, this is a separate before: and we now have to understand that today, this category of persons and subjects , they are not subject to criminal disqualification, i.e., if the territory is occupied and this independent type of professional activity is carried out there, to date this does not fall under the criminal disqualification

of the actor, we want to eliminate this gap, according to some subjects have discussions, but it will be possible to, let's say, be expertly reassessed before the second reading, but in any case, we believe that we cannot do selectively for someone, that this act will be criminally punished, for someone no, that's why we provided for all types, the main types of independent professional activity, er, we also made appropriate proposals for the improvement of other parts of this article, i would also like to draw attention to the fact that as of today... the day of article 111 with a mark of one to the jurisdiction of the security authorities, i.e. the security service of ukraine is the body of pre-trial investigation that conducts activities related to the investigation of the specified type of criminal offense, then our draft law proposes to make changes also to the criminal

procedure code of ukraine, which will provide that according to the first and second part of the article 111, marked one, criminal proceedings are investigated by the national police, the remaining parts of this article will continue to be investigated by the security authorities, i.e. the security service of ukraine. why is this done, because we see a huge burden on the security agencies, regarding the investigation of these criminal offenses, they are still limited, institutionally in number, to investigate this type of criminal offenses, and thus we propose that , the lion's share of these offenses were investigated by the national police, the national police, especially since, as a rule, these criminal offenses are recorded by

the national police, because, well, according to their the number is sufficient, therefore this will also be a relative procedural novel, we hope that a certain understanding between the bodies of the pre-trial investigation will also be reached depending on the objective data that has been formed. this is a short thesis on our initiatives. thank you oleksandr, i will add another, i consider it a very important detail, something that is not in this draft law, but what was discussed very thoroughly and what has a huge public resonance, is passporting, obtaining passports of the russian federation for temporarily occupied territories. after. many discussions, and after we received, by the way, several bills from the government, including, there is a bill from vereshchuk, it seems, yes, where it is proposed to consider it as an additional composition.

of the crime of collaboration in the case of holding a position by a person in the occupation administration, but, in short, the committee took a position, as i understand it, it is already final, that based on the fact that the state of ukraine does not recognize forced automatic passporting in the temporarily occupied territories from 2014, i.e. we are not we generally recognize this as a legal fact. based on the fact that in the vast majority of cases obtaining a passport of the aggressor country is a forced action aimed at the survival of a person in the temporarily occupied territories, we generally closed the discussion about the fact that these actions have a separate composition of collaborative activity. we believe that it is not necessary to investigate this separately, again, the state does not recognize this... fact, and if a person committed some other crime related to collaboration, assumed an administrative position,

went to serve in the occupation police or in armed forces, this is all wonderfully spelled out by other parts and, accordingly, the inevitability of punishment will be guaranteed by the code, and the debate on passporting, we believe, should be closed in this way, that is, there is no responsibility. and there are no plans to introduce liability for the very fact of obtaining a passport of the country of the aggressor while staying in the temporarily occupied territory. these are probably the main messages we wanted to give you, if you suddenly have questions, you can of course ask them, please, colleague, questions, so better like it's convenient for you, let me go, so i will have two questions on the topic and two. if possible, in fact, if we are talking about you, that is, at what stage is this draft law now, and i want to ask whether this

collaborative activity was taken into account, when, for example, there was still an ato zone, how did it happen? the draft law was officially registered in the verkhovna rada of ukraine yesterday, i read the number in my opinion, it is registered 10136 from october 9. that is, it is already in the secretariat of the verkhovna rada of ukraine and actually already a specialized committee law enforcement has formal grounds to start working with it not as an idea, but as a draft law. the draft law and actually the current article, it covers actions, not any specific territories, that is, we are talking about the fact of committing collaborative activities. of course, the legislation does not have retroactive

effect, we understand everything very well, that is why we actually followed the path of improving the current article, which is valid, well, from the middle of march 2022, that is, directly answering your direct direct question, well conditionally yes, write crimes that correspond to these articles, but were committed there, i don't know, in 2016-17 , they do not fall under the scope of this article, well , actually, this is the whole issue, with which i began my speech, which unfortunately , until february 24 , 2022, the ukrainian legislator did not pay enough attention to this phenomenon and this issue. and to clarify, there are generally some statistics, as it was then, that is, until the 24th , well, if it is not a crime, how can there be statistics, let me add, we had other criminal offenses for which... offenses were recorded ours

citizens, crimes, mostly it was treason, that is, if these are some actions with the use of weapons, some such citizens were recorded on our, on the territory of ukraine, however, which were already under temporary occupation, it could be qualified as actions aimed at overthrowing the constitutional system, if there were facts of damage to the armed forces of ukraine, according to another article, actions aimed at hindering the armed forces, i.e., but there was no direct construction and direct prohibition of collaborative activity, it became criminal only after the large-scale armed aggression of the russian federation in 22, when the parliament actually criminalized this act. that is, we understand, yes, that it cannot be said that no one was responsible for the action. there since the 14th year, it’s just that it’s much more difficult to qualify them in many cases , and that’s exactly why this whole story with

article 111 itself, which was adopted in march and what we are currently improving to enable law enforcement officers to actually work effectively, and the question the latter to both, the law of edeclation has already been restored, please tell me whether have you already submitted your declarations and is it possible that something has changed? i haven't submitted it yet, but personally i think i'll be able to handle it within a week, look, i really don't like this whole story about communication, the law, and this whole topic in general. we discussed it once and here at the briefing, it was too emotional and not very effective from the point of view of the essence, especially in the issue, several public organizations organized a competition, who submitted and who did not submit a declaration, well, even before the adoption of the law, but for me it is completely devoid of any common sense, because it was a competition regarding declarations that were closed to the public, closed to the nazc, that is

, they just clicked a button there and it was submitted there, but... it did not create any consequences at all, that is, even today the president signed another the law is unenforced, if i submit a declaration today, there will be no legal consequences, except for the media, if you can come out and say what a great man i am, and the law we adopted, which the president signed today, on the declaration in 21-22 provides certain features, and there is wonderful news, those who submitted declarations, trying to show their integrity, until today, probably they will have to resubmit them, and this is written directly in the law, that is, following the media hype, some of our colleagues, and not only colleagues, anyone could submit, but it will have to be resubmitted, because there are special ones, well, as soon as it becomes legal, there are many colleagues, i want to continue the rhetoric of andrii petrovych, many colleagues were still waiting for the procedures,

how to properly submit them, because itself the procedure and order of their submission has been changed, er, the content of the declarations, what is indicated in them, has been changed, and therefore, in fact, i have to be guided by the new law, which i need to indicate, because what was required is not required, but what was not indicated before , it is indicated, therefore it is necessary, as of today we know that the president has signed the law, it will be published, but from the next day, about a million people, not only people's deputies, hundreds of thousands of people will appear. the right opportunity to submit them in the proper way, because accordingly the rules are meaningful, they have already been changed , so i think it will be right to wait until the law is in force, once again this whole competition was meaningless, you and i are fighting for the rule of law, that's right, we are fighting for the rule of law, which means that it is necessary to do what is provided by the law, and not what someone wants, accordingly, to fully submit

the declaration for the 21-22nd year, so that it has legal consequences and is correct, perhaps only after the law signed by the president of ukraine today is published , well, for sure it will happen there tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, and only after that moment can we responsibly conduct a discussion about who submitted, how and who submitted the declaration, i emphasize every time that i have been declaring since 2016, all years i passed a full check, with this in i don't have any problems, but i have problems that a huge hype was made out of this story, which, believe me, will probably not be effective in preventing corruption, despite the fact that the first declarations, you understand, are really there well , they will appear en masse by january 31 next year, this is the deadline for 21-22 years, and then by april 1, 24, there will be declarations for the 23rd year, and everyone should always remember one

thing, what oleksandr said, but this, i will repeat and repeat, the declarations are not people's deputies, of whom there are 404 left, it is declared that there are more than 900,000 citizens of ukraine, that is, this is a problem that affects just a huge number of people, and i remain of my opinion that, unfortunately, the law signed by the president is not fully reflects the problems of the citizens of ukraine, the subjects of the declaration, because, for example, what i have always been outraged and outraged that they left the subjects of declaration, for example, women who left with children and are now in forced migration, that is, those who are legally somewhere in europe, but they are the subjects of declaration, for example, if a person has completed his civil service there, for example in january of the 22nd year, yes, he is obliged to submit a declaration, i now imagine that there is some unfortunate woman or man who, on legal grounds, is going through not