many republicans are already talking about it, and then such a possible decrease in american participation in helping ukraine must be something to fill in for onopenione. and in that sense, it is good that the government is changing in poland, because the new government will be able to talk and persuade european partners to keep it. in addition to fighting the aggressor who came, most of us are greatly impressed by the heroism of the ukrainian. this sacrifice you make every day. when i talk about tiredness, our tiredness is the tiredness of the viewer, and it is not compared to your tiredness and to that by a person sitting in a vault during air raids.

these are not things that can be compared, i realize that this sacrifice is not compared to everything that we are going through here, but the conclusion that i draw, jak vyjákam, ječíl chcemy tym bohaterskimcom pomoc, it is necessary to continue, however, the support

should be determined by the ukrainians themselves, because i after all , i have no right to say how i imagine that victory.

and in my opinion, looking at it more tactically, politically, and i believe that this is what is happening, that president zelenskyi, że jego otoczenie, no majje rozzenie warianty, co robi, co robi, if you have those resources, exhaust them.

i do not want to define what constitutes a victory, because it is the task of the ukrainians themselves to make a decision, at the same time i can say that politicians should have different options, have some kind of plan b? i think that this and so on, because there are so many variable factors in world politics that one plan b will not be enough. actually, when do you think this war might end and how many generations should there be? first, the war will end, there should be peace, but it will not be forgotten, these are brotherly peoples, like it was once said that we belong to the same language group, we are slavs, we have experienced a very difficult history, very tragic, but also good at times.

the history i bardzo tragiczną, but also good sometimes, więc z takich, szybko, nie wychodzi się łoko. what the russians did, the war itself, the aggression itself, the crime against civilians, the destruction of cities, victims among children, victims among the dead. like kidnapping. when that war ends, and even, which is hard to imagine, some democrat will sit in the kremlin and say: "słuchajcie, wybaczmy sobie, to to też za jednym, because there is experience people who survived that war had to flee, were afraid, lost loved ones, fathers, husbands, this will continue and the understanding, proces pojednania

rosyjsko, rosyjsko-ukraińskiego będzie trudny, long-lasting, ale prze wszystkim on musi się przemyśl od pokoju, so putin made a historic mistake, we have a different opinion, we are ready to rebuild those relations with ukraine, this can happen when the regime in the kremlin changes, and it will not change from putin to someone similar, hundreds of years is that they do not respect people, as well as own, there is a country, there is a family, there is

i will say this, the realization of those grandiose goals, and at what price, how many ordinary people will pay with their lives, health or otherwise, no one knows. for this reason, my opinion is that the war can last for years, but the russian-ukrainian conflict due to the wrong done to claims by ukraine can be a topic for generations to find some way to understanding, to a combination. russia, it is not from yesterday, it is from the beginning of this country, man has never been in the center of attention there. the state was the main target,

no matter how many victims it absorbed, it was not accepted neither tsars, nor lenin, nor stalin, nor today putin, and that is why we have problems with russia. decided that poland should be a european country, to remain in the european union, and for that we are grateful to you, and that it was a democratic country, that was a country in which we respect each other, thank you very much mr. oleksandr for the conversation, i want to say to our viewers, that it was oleksandr kwasniewski, a polish public and political figure and also the president of poland from 1995 to 2005, we were talking about how poland voted,

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ukrainian information channels. we have held the championship for six months in a row. greetings, dear viewers. time to learn about the most important things. according to measurement data, viewers choose the ukrainian view from esso. congratulations friends, mykola veresin, vitaly portnikov. good health to everyone. thank you ukrainians for your trust. espresso. works for you. the roof is a project about the feeling of home, about our roots, about identity. my grandfather built it. behind us is the house of my great-great-grandmothers, about what the old ukrainian architecture brings to us today? good architecture is not necessarily made with the participation of an architect. churches, mills, houses, mazankas, it depends on us whether these buildings will go. slowly nothingness. a wooden church is a phenomenon, indeed, it still is here in a ukrainian village

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helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, host of espresso and invited experts, based on facts, give their assessment and forecast of the development of events. if you want to understand how our today will affect our tomorrow, watch the saturday politics club, every saturday on espresso. congratulations, with us today peter pomerantsev, a writer and journalist, we talked with him a year ago about how to oppose russian propaganda, today we will continue the conversation and talk about how to do it now, because in a year the situation has fundamentally changed, and how in a year it changed, please peter, tell me what is happening now, let's not generalize, let's talk about key countries, i live and work. in america, at johns hopkins university in washington, and,

now i helped various colleagues, ukrainian activists, and others, conducts a new an investigation about what americans think about the war, about ukraine, about the future, and so on, and the main thing that can be said about the topic is that attention to the topic, and wars, has greatly decreased. but for people in the fourth and fifth place, in those topics that hurt them, it is not bad, the fourth or fifth place is also a place, but it is far away, if it was in the first place in all the news, it is no longer there, it rarely appears, and this is one of the stories that people very quickly switch to the next ocean, that when we, when my colleagues, did focus groups and so on, many simply asked, and there is still a war , and so on, that the attention of ordinary people was very, very much lost, and, of course, political circles are discussing very, very much, and there are many different movements, the most

dangerous development is that half to vote, well, people who can, possibly vote for republicans, want to end aid to ukraine, and are taking more and more russian positions, this is not a huge amount of the population, yes, there are 25% of the population, and even 75% support it. but this is part of the voters and those members of the republic the parties that they choose, they very much influence the entire republican party. yes, they are trying to seize power there, their leader trump, he will probably be the candidate of the republicans, which means that we have such a strange situation, where 25% of the population can solve the issue of ukraine, despite the fact that 75% still support , which means, of course, a very, very dangerous period, and of course, russia is very much looking forward to

trump's victory in november. this dangerous period, what is it connected with, is it an internal situation, or is it some kind of thing, what is it about america, is it about america and the future of america, this is a part of society that does not want america to leave nato, america to leave europe, and america to leave the world in principle, this tradition has always been in america, america barely entered the second world war , with great difficulty, only after japan's attack on america, this is always a long, long part of the american tradition, generally speaking about ukraine and russia, because i , for example, see, well, there, and probably in ukraine it is like that, you know , react very actively, this is when musk expresses something, there these posts of his are endless, then you have to give a part of ukraine, then something else, or some articles appear in various, even very such, well, respectable publications, where they also begin to think about how to freeze

the conflict, what to give for it, is it in general some mainstream, how it is perceived in our bubble, and how it is perceived, well, if you look, well, in the background, well, simply, here's how you can look, as a person who lives in the united states, how he looks at all this, this, how true is it, well, such a vivid thing, well , by and large, expert articles they are not perceived at all, these are expert articles for other experts, and this is very important in the washington party, it is very, very important, and there is a very heated discussion on how to continue the war and how to support ukraine. in society, no one reads it, no one knows about it, people don’t read it, well, the mask, the mask reads, well, the mask is another phenomenon, no, there are very few people on twitter, twitter basically ended as an important project, he was always only a project for journalists and others and activists, he was the law of moscow twitter, he has become completely irrelevant as a platform, but not very relevant as a platform, if before he played a big

role, the mask knows as a businessman, very successful, the richest man in the country in america, the cult of... business, for better or for worse side, and of course musk has a colossus, but i wouldn’t say that he plays any particularly important, decisive role in public debates, he simply represents such a point of view in america, where you must always be against everything, and it's very such a fashionable position is widely presented by other people, except for musk, but i would not overreact to the words of even a billionaire, to what extent it is, well, internal , when these articles come out, to what extent these articles are some kind of natural process, well, this is the opinion of journalists are there any specific analysts, or can we talk about a certain, well, russian influence here

, that is, where, how to distinguish, or whether it is necessary to distinguish at all, it is very important to understand that musk, we now know, was in direct contact with the kremlin all the time he repeats the kremlin’s actions, by and large , and we now know about it, now a lot of biography has been told about him, he is just on the phone with the kremlin, he has business interests related to russia, he really wants to launch programs related to with space, space programs with russia, and apparently they are very, very easy to manipulate, like many such... honorable and rich people are not very smart in politics, they are very easy to outplay, and of course, this has a huge influence, plays is he in any the decisive role, i don’t know, but as i say, he represents such a block of opinion that is always against the norm, yes, if the norm is against ukraine, he will be for ukraine, if the norm is for ukraine, he will be against ukraine, well, that’s it

he, that's how he plays, that's a lot of people play such a role, but again , everything is very clear in sociology , we will support ukraine, as long as it will be necessary, that was the main phrase, americans will not hate this phrase, ukrainians too, yes, americans love clear. think about the american historical successes they have

my favorite phrase is mission accomplish, the mission is complete, when something is like chewing gum, it is unclear where and what and where, these are americans, so let 's not sweat too much about the mask and so on, let's think about how we are huge the majority in american society support ukraine, as best as possible. they don't like this phrase and i like the inaccuracy of the idea that there is no plan, yes, they are ready to wait, not that there should be victory tomorrow, but they don't want to know how we are, where we are going and how we are going there, well, i wish in general, for the word victory to start sounding, we do not support something incomprehensible , but the word victory does not sound, they do not believe in our victory, what is the matter, i do not know, i think that these are very instinctively, very cautious people. america, they are not, they are not visionaries, eh, they are always a pawn ahead, putin spits a pawn, they are a pawn ahead, well, in principle, their idea

is that the allies probably have more money than russia and in the end, russia will probably lose they have such a vision, but they don't especially like to think about big goals and so on далее, это это их инстикты, they are like that, well, as i understand it, it doesn't even affect american society like that, such a policy. because cheerful goals, great actions and heroism, and this, well, this is the generation of politicians , biden is like that, and the people around him are a little like that, they love, they want to be careful, they are careful, well, look, maybe even half , even for a year it was possible to say that russian propaganda, well, it was, in principle, somehow not spread like that in the west, in the sense that russian propagandists absolutely... were not perceived clearly, but now, ukraine is already doing a lot, right , for example, the americans were afraid

that what marsk was talking about, yes, if there is an attack on the black sea fleet, there will be a nuclear war, the ukrainians are brilliant showed, here we hacked the fleet with our ingenious drones, and nothing, and something is changing, the ukrainians are already doing everything right, it seems to me, in the sense that they are conducting military operations, operations within russia, which all the time show america that they are not they need to be sung, yes, that's it a two-way operation, yes or three-way, he tells his society , hold on, we have a plan, yes, we have a plan for an asymmetric war against this enemy, it is very inspiring, it is very important, and it affects russia, which even i am beginning to realize that they have not calculated everything , and this is certainly very influential... in the west, i think, there are more such operations, it would be very interesting for me to see if there were any cyber operations against russia ukrainians, if i don't know, cut down a couple

factories, where rockets are made, what kind of reaction will russia have, because it is clear, this is the next step - an invitation to the sky, somewhere, well , it is clear that this is the next big one, well, so big, and such a moment in this war, where there is no end the same picture, no matter what the title says. an illustration is a must, some cemetery in ukraine, some wounded fighters, and that's all, well, i, you know, i have such a mixed feeling, i understand that this may be some manifestation of empathy, but do such articles help ukraine at all, oh, what it helps, it doesn't help, sympathy is very important, very important, again, on sociology, yes , i don't want to tell such anecdotal things, because really now there are many interesting studies, very important, americans, very motivating, stories about children about children, about the fact that children are kidnapped is very motivating, directly, even the trumpists, trump says, no, this needs to be stopped, it’s all about genocide, and so on and so on,

which means, of course, that the main concern of american society is values, yes, they are not they understand why it is important for the international community the theories are right there, all these phrases about the international, legal, civil society, this is all completely incomprehensible to ordinary people. but protecting children is very important, it is very, very, very important, because on the one hand it is very important, it is about values, it is about the need to protect children, victims and so on, it is extremely important, on the other hand parties, of course, especially americans, it is very important for them, well, support for ukraine correlates with belief in the ukrainian victory, yes, and of course, it is very important to talk about victories too, yes, what is needed some kind of balance, and, yes, it is very important, it is very important that it should be...' the concept of the victory of ukraine in ukraine there are many victories not only in the military sphere, for example, in the crimea with the black sea fleet, but in the sphere of infrastructure and so, every day there is

some kind of victory. but it is not always fully told, that is, do you think that the powers, the world powers, are now more like wavering, they are showing ukraine more as a victim, or are they still showing her as a winner? they are going for something new, yes, when there were victories, battles for kiev, when there was the liberation of kharkiv and kherson regions, of course they didn't write about that, now they write about something else, like this, that is. do you want to say there will be victories, there will be defeats, no, well, then such a mess begins, and it is possible and possible to very strongly overemphasize some thing that is less important than another, this is not the case, we are doing this all the time, and the history of our research , as we all the time refocus on some topic, and this topic becomes dominant when it does not reflect reality, so it is very old the problem of the media does not start with this war

, but interestingly, look, russian propaganda talks a lot about how the western game technique, or some other leopard or bradley or something like that, it is important for them to tell their people to their population, because well, the population is really afraid, now there was the last study by levada, where the first fear is the shelling of russia, the second fear is the supply of western equipment to ukraine, only the third is the fear of a counterattack by ukraine, that is, the three main fears of the russian population, there are more than 60% they are afraid of all this, the last one is in september. it was a survey of the levada, the end of september, and what about all these news about the fact that, well, there, somewhere , the foreign equipment that was given to ukraine is on fire, here it is broken, here it was attacked again by the russians, the russians, how do western societies perceive this all the news, and and and in general, well, do they perceive or are they interested in what is happening in technology, yes, look, it is interesting, for two reasons. there is just

a part of society that is very interested in it, yes, who watch youtube channels about tanks, yes, who download apps themselves, where they don’t know about, i don’t know, drone attacks, there are just people who love it very much, of course, people really want to, they still feel very sorry for ukraine, they really want to feel that they are a part of pobedy, too, yes, but it seems to me, you just know that the news must be new so that people follow them, yes, it is not, well, the news is has to be new, yes, by its own definition. yes, well , he told me once, this is the second time, the third time, we need because of this, it seems to me that, for example, these ingenious attacks on the black sea fleet were very interesting, something new, yes, well, we need to think that there is more, that some tank burned down, you say , well, the first time is interesting, the second, the third, yes, the third , the third time is unfortunately uninteresting, yes, it is necessary to show new forms of victory all the time, i know that it is difficult, it is not easy, well, we live in a world

where information is extremely important. and where the military operation also has an informational aspect, yes, well, it seems to me that gur understands this very well, for sure, yes, not very well, well they are not working very well in this direction, but how do you generally evaluate all this influx of articles about the counteroffensive and how much in general , again, how much does it affect the support of ukraine, here are all the conversations that the counteroffensive is like this, not like that, it went like this , in people, i think that people simply lose interest when an expert starts such a technical analysis of targets, people do not follow the war as much, they see what is happening, they look, yes, if we are talking about about publicly, events to events, happened something bright, they concentrated on it, me i repeat the focus group in america, again america is a unique country, they ask us, is the war still going on? well, i'm not saying that this is a huge point of view, yes, but it is, yes, but to such a degree that there is almost no ukrainian, well, not that almost, but often it is simply not in

the news. then, on this basis, and the conversations, again, which some experts constantly come out about, that it is necessary to agree on something with russia, to what extent these conversations are generally also, well, they are some kind of mainstream, in general, does anyone believe that something is about with russia you can agree, again the secret is about public opinion, no one thinks about it at all, especially yes, and the secret is about such an elite one.