place, at any time, just go to the site and report, and we will launch all possible mechanisms to punish the criminal, stop crime ua. congratulations, with us today is peter pomirantsev, a writer and journalist, we talked with him a year ago about how to oppose russian propaganda, and we will continue the conversation and talk about how to do it now, because the situation has fundamentally changed in a year, and how has it changed in a year, please, peter, tell me what is happening now, let's not generalize, let's talk about key country, i live and work in america, at the johns hopkins university, in washington, and fortunately i helped various colleagues, ukrainian activists, and others, conducting

a new investigation about what americans think about the war, about ukraine, about the future, and so on , and the main thing is to say that what has changed is the attention to this topic, this attention to the topic, and wars, it has greatly decreased, but among people in fourth and fifth place, in those topics that are sick, that's not bad, fourth. the fifth place is also a place but it is far away, if it was in the first place in all the news, it is no longer there, it rarely appears, and it is one of the stories that people very quickly switch to the next from it, that when we, when my colleagues did focus groups and so on, many simply asked, and there is still a war, and so on, because the attention of ordinary people was very, very much lost, and, of course, political circles discuss very, very much and many different... moving, the most

dangerous the development is that half of the voters, well, people who can it is possible to vote for republicans, they want to stop aid to ukraine, and they are taking more and more pro-russian positions, this is not a huge amount of the population, yes, there is 25% of the population, yes still 75% support it, but this is part of the voters and those members of the republican party who they choose, they very strongly influence the entire republican party , and they are trying to seize power there, their leader trump, he will probably be the candidate of the republicans in the elections, that we have such a strange situation, where 25% of the population can solve the issue of ukraine, despite the fact that 75% still support it, which means , of course, a very, very dangerous period, and of course, russia is very much looking forward to trump's victory in november. a dangerous period, what is it

connected with, is it an internal situation, or is it something that ukraine, as such, could swim towards? this, this is about america, this is about america and the future of america , and this is a part of society that does not want america to leave nato, for america to leave europe, and for america to leave the world in principle, this tradition has always been in america, america ele-ele entered the second world war with great difficulty, only after japan's attack on america, it's always a long, long one. in general, on the drum about ukraine and about russia? well, for my part, for example, i see, well, there, and apparently in ukraine , they react to it like this, you know, very actively, it’s when musk expresses something, there his posts are endless, then there you have to give a part of ukraine, then something else , or some articles appear in various, even very, well , respectable publications, where they also begin to think about how to freeze the conflict, what what pay for it.

it's generally some kind of mainstream, how it's perceived not from our bubble, but how it's perceived, well, if you look at it, well, in the background, well, that's just how you can look, as a person who lives in the united states, how he looks at all this, this , how much it is really, well, so vivid, something, well, it is expert, it is expert articles for other experts, and it is very important to the washington party, it is very, very important. and there is a very heated discussion about how to continue to wage war and how to continue to support ukraine, in this society not at all, no one reads it, no one knows about it, people don’t read it, well, the mask, the mask reads, well, the mask is another phenomenon, no, there are very few people on twitter, twitter basically ended as an important project, it always was only a project for journalists and others and activists, he was the law of moscow, twitter, he became completely irrelevant as a platform, but not very relevant as a platform, if he had played a big role before, he knows how to be a businessman, and a very

successful one, the richest person in country, in america, the cult of business, yes in a good way, in the bad side, and of course, musk has it, there is a colossus, but... well, i wouldn't say that he plays any particularly important, decisive role in the public debate, he simply represents such a point of view in america, where you should always be against everything, and this is a very fashionable position, such contrarianism, it is widely represented by other people, except for musk, but i would not overreact to the words of even a billionaire, it is, well, some kind of internal when these articles come out, as far as these articles are some kind of natural process, well, there it is, it is an opinion journalists or there are some certain analysts, can we talk here about a certain, well, such influence of russia, that is, where, how to distinguish,

or whether it is necessary to distinguish at all, it is not very important to understand, musk we now know, was in direct contact with by the kremlin all the time and he repeats the theses of the kremlin by and large. we now know about it, now a lot of biography has been told about him, he is just on the phone with the kremlin, his business interests are connected with russia, he really wants to launch programs related to space, space programs with russia, and apparently they are very, very easy to manipulate, as many such honorable and rich people are not very smart in politics, they are very easy to outwit, and of course, this has a huge impact, and does he play any decisive role, i don't know, but as i say, he represents such a block of opinion, which is always against the norm, yes, if the norm is against ukraine, he will be for ukraine, if the norm is for ukraine, he will be against ukraine, well, that's how he is, yes he plays, many people play such a role, but

again, everything is very clear in sociology, yes, different studies are repeated, 75% of people support ukraine, for america to play an active role in europe, for america to be in nato, they want america to be able to calm the chaos, support in america it is 4%, which means that there is no support at all, and everything is clear there, yes, the problem is another , that the main message, which gives american leadership, always consisted in the key phrase: as long as it takes, we will support ukraine, how long it will take, this was biden's main phrase. americans hate this phrase. ukrainians too. yes, yes, americans love a clear mission, plan, goal. think about america's historical successes. their favorite phrase is "mission accomplish". mission completed. and when something happens, it's like a dog, they stretch, it's not clear where, and what and where. these are americans

now. so, let's not get too worked up about masko, and so on, let's think about how huge we are. the majority in the american society prefers ukraine, what is the best way to communicate with them? they they do not like this phrase, and i, i like the inaccuracy, the idea that there is no plan, yes, they are ready to wait, not that there should be a victory tomorrow, but they do not want to know how we are, where we are going and how we are going there, well i would really like the word victory to start sounding, we do not support something incomprehensible, but the word victory does not sound, they do not believe in our victory, why? i don't know, i think that these are very instinctively, very very cautious people who lead america, they are not visionaries, they are always a step ahead, putin is a pawn, not a pawn forward, well, in principle, you are going with them, probably, the allies have more money than russia, and in the end

, russia will lose, probably, they have some kind of vision, but they do not like this, especially to think about big goals and so on, these are their instincts, they are like that. i understand, it doesn’t work like that even on american society, they love cheerful goals, big actions and heroism, but this is, well, this is this, this generation of politicians, biden is like that, and the people around him are a little like that, they love it, they want to tread carefully , they are careful, well look, maybe even half a year, even a year, it was possible to say that russian propaganda , well, it is, in principle, well, somehow not... so in the west, in the sense that russian propagandists were not perceived absolutely clearly, but now, ukraine already he is doing a lot of right things, for example

, the americans are afraid of what musk said, yes, if there is an attack on the black sea fleet, there will be a nuclear war, the ukrainians have shown genius, here we have smashed it with our genius drones... the fleet and nothing , and something is changing. ukrainians are already everything they are doing it right, it seems to me, in the sense that they are doing military operations, operations inside russia, which are shown all the time. america, you don’t need to be afraid of them, yes, this is a two-way operation, yes, or three-way, he tells his society: hold on, we have a salary, yes, we have a plan for an asymmetric war against this enemy, very inspiring, this it is very important, and it affects russia, which is even beginning to understand that they have not calculated everything, yes, and it certainly affects the west very much, for me more such operations, i would be very interested to see if there were any cyber operations against russia, if i don't know, they cut down a couple of factories where rockets are made, what russia's reaction will be, because

this is understandable, this is the next step in this request to the sky, somewhere, well, it is clear that this is the next big one, well, so big, and such a moment in this war, in this plan it is a very new war, yes, drones are one news in this war, but the cyber aspect - this is a future war, of course everyone is afraid to start it. maybe that chat, lately i see a lot of articles, different editions , british, german, american, where the same picture is endless, no matter what is written in the title, the illustration must be some cemetery in ukraine, some wounded fighters, and that's all, well, i, you know, i have such a mixed feeling, i understand that this may be some kind of manifestation of empathy, but do such articles help ukraine at all? oh, they help. it helps, sympathy is very important, very important, again, on sociology, yes, i do not want

to tell such anecdotal things, because really, now there are many interesting studies, very important, americans, very motivating stories about children, about children, about the fact that children are kidnapped, very motivating, directly, even the trumpists, as trump says, no, this must be stopped, it’s all about genocide , and, and so on and so on, so, of course, the main business of american society is values, right? they don't really understand why it is important for international legal theory and all these phrases about international, legal, civil society, that's all for ordinary people people are completely incomprehensible, but protecting children is very important, it is very, very, very important, because on the one hand it is very important, it is about values, it is about the need to protect children, victims and so on, it is crazy it is important, on the other hand, of course, especially the americans, it is very important for them to support ukraine. correlates with belief in the ukrainian victory, and of course, it is very important

to talk about victories, too, yes, that some kind of balance is necessary, ah, yes, it is very important, it is very important to have the concept of victory, ukrainians, ukraine has a lot of victories, not only in the military sphere, for example, in the crimea with the black sea fleet, but in the sphere of infrastructure and so on, every day there is some kind of victory, but it is not always told to the end, that is, you think , what? media, the media of the world, they are now more like faltering, they show ukraine more as a victim, or after all, they show it as a winner. listen, well, the journalists are going for something new, yes, when the victories, the battle for kiev, when there was, the liberation of kharkiv and kherson regions, of course, they did not write about this, now they write about the second one, that’s how, that is, you want to say, there will be victories , they will write, such yes and it is possible and it is possible to very strongly overemphasize some thing that is less important than the second one, it’s not, we

hear it all the time, the history of research smy, as smy всё время is diverted to some topic, and this topic becomes dominant when it does not reflect reality, so this is a very old problem of the smy, and it does not start with this war, but interestingly, look, russian propaganda tells a lot about how western equipment is playing, some other leopard or bradley or something like that. it is important for them to tell their opinion to the population , because the population is really afraid, but now there was the last study of levvada, where the first is the fear of shelling from russia, the second is the supply of western equipment to ukraine, only the third is the fear of a counteroffensive by ukraine, i.e. the three main fears of the russian population, more than 60% of them are afraid of all this, the last one was in september, this study of levvada, the end of september, and all these news about the fact that there is a fire somewhere

the foreign equipment that was provided to ukraine, it is broken there, it has been attacked again by the russians, the russians, how do western societies perceive it, all these news, and in general, do they perceive it, or are they interested in what is happening with, great technology , yes , look, it's interesting, for two reasons, there's just a part of society who is very interested in it, yes, who watches youtube channels about tanks. yes, those who are self-deprecating, i don’t know where they find out about the drone, there are just people who love it very much, of course, people really want it, they still they feel very sorry for ukraine, even though... they feel that they are part of the victory too , yes, but it seems to me, you just know that the news must be new so that people will follow it, yes, it is not, well the news is has to be new, yes by definition, yes, but he told it once, the second time, the third time , we need it, because of this, it seems to me that , for example, these brilliant attacks on the black sea fleet were very interesting, it was

that - that's new, yes, but we need to think that there is more, it seems to me, it just burned out some tank, well, the first time is interesting, the second, the third, yes, the third, the third time is unfortunately not interesting, yes, it is necessary to show new forms of victory all the time, this is what i know, that it is difficult, it is not easy, well, we live in world, where information is incredibly important and where military operations also have an informational aspect, yes, well, it seems to me that gur understands this very well, for sure, yes, not very, not very cool to work in this direction, well and how do you generally assess this whole influx of articles about the counteroffensive and how much in general, again anyway, to what extent does it affect the support of ukraine, here are all the conversations that the counteroffensive is like this, not like that, he wrote that way, ugh, people, i think that people just lose interest when experts start such a technical analysis of targets, people don’t pay attention behind the war, they see what is happening, they watch, yes, if we talk about the public, from event to event, in fact, yes,

yes, something bright happened, they concentrated on it, i repeat, the focus group in america, again, america is a unique country. they ask us: is the war still going on? i do not i say that this is a huge point of view, yes, but it is, yes, but it is more serious, no , well, often it is simply not in the news, then on this basis, and conversations, again, which some experts constantly come out about , that it is necessary to agree on something with russia, to what extent are these conversations in general also, well, are they some kind of mainstream, in general, does anyone believe that there is something with russia? it is possible to add again that he is talking about public opinion, no one thinks about it at all, especially, yes, if he is talking about such an elite conversation, yes there is a large group people who lobby for such a position are stronger in europe than in america , and trump talks about it, yes, he says that he will agree with everyone in 5 seconds, because he is a dealmaker, he will agree with everyone and everyone will be happy, but

well, he talks about such a position, but i think that among people who... make politics, they understand that they are not negotiating with anyone, yes, i think that this illusion has long passed and you know, this the conversation continues, almost like something like that, i don't know, like the rest of the echoes of the old ones conversations, and now i think that everyone there understands that they are not negotiating with anyone, but they also do not understand what to do, or at least they do not tell us what they will do, yes, well, yes, he is like that in this, well, in this inaccuracy, well, it is very dangerous, you know, i have such a thing. well, i have the impression that when the focus is lost a little, the understanding of what to do next is lost, there is such a familiar reaction, everyone starts talking about corruption in ukraine, you know, it's just a topic to which you can always return, if you don't know what to say, here

i have this impression and it seems to me that right now is such a moment, and how much these conversations are. in general, how much they actually affect the support of ukraine, how toxic they are, how much the society of western countries pays attention to them, without being extremely important, well, the following, which i read, shows that even those who support ukraine when you ask them, why would you lose, or why would you lose or stop supporting ukraine, they answer that there is the first point, if ukraine will be there itself commits crimes, the second point, if there is corruption, and the money will be used for corrupt purposes and it will be stolen , you understand that they are giving their money, yes, taxpayers' money, for a very important purpose, he fully understands that this is a very important purpose, the majority, and 75% believe that this is very important, will support ukraine, but if

they do not see how the ukrainian elite steals this money for themselves, and it does not go to the people, then... they will certainly react negatively to it, and of course, russian propaganda, but not only russian propaganda, just american anti-ukrainian propaganda puts maximum pressure on this, on this topic, this is almost the most dangerous topic for ukraine, and because of this, it is necessary to approach it very seriously, well, whatever you say here, because i see now a repetition of a certain comeback, you know, in 16-17, when also, although in order to normalize russia in general, they started talking about corruption in ukraine, but now the same story, because to a certain extent these conversations, well, they wear artificial, well, how? well, here i am, well, yes, yes, here many historians, and russian sources, american sources, if we talk in detail, yes, it is possible, well, let's start with metaphors that we hear all the time, in

focus groups, yes, why do we write ukraina blank check , why do we write ukraine a blank check, an open check, as much as you want, yes, start with these metaphors, there are no open checks, yes, every penny is tracked, everything is very, very high, and the high-quality system of how we track money is the first, yes, well, such small things, where do you need to start, yes, you need to to fight at the level of language, but it is necessary to talk about how money is being spent on the american topic, and who should do it, it should be done by the american government, it should be done by the ukrainian government, everything, everything, everything, for the future, its own approach, but you also need not to fall too hard. you are talking about money, yes, when it comes to supporting the security of the world, when it comes to what needs to be done, tyrants who

try to take away the freedom of other countries, then, well, to defeat them and to achieve the stability that can be victories, and this is a very good investment, yes, in order, in order, stability is necessary , it also says that no matter how much it is , it is impossible to count dollars here and there, yes, that stability will be after we are, we will be able to stop russia, it brings great benefits for all. the fact that, for example, this narrative that russia is so big has no effect at all. and she, she will always be great, but ukraine is not so great, well, she is running out of resources, what we constantly, constantly read, hear,

to what extent is this in general, such a thing, which, which is perceived by, well, some societies of western countries, politicians of western countries, how toxic is this issue, insane, insanely toxic, there is still the idea that russia is huge, it is an illusion that it is very rich, there is knowledge that he has a nuclear weapon, that it has rich resources, and this is the idea that it is a giant, you need a giant, you will never defeat it, it plays a huge role, and it is necessary to take it very much apart in order to see the arrogance of this king, we haven't done that yet, that is this one the myth could not be deconstructed, not to the end, of course, some sobered up, but it runs very deep, it has been going on for centuries. yes, it plays a very big role, i think, look, and i understand it, nuclear weapons, in itself, but the issue of nuclear weapons remains also

toxic, which in principle affects decision-making very strongly, officially, and according to any doctrine , you are different, you have a different relationship with a nuclear state than a nuclear state, it is a part of doctrinally any country, well, you know, my big part of my work in general consists in the fact that i watch literally hours of russian tv shows, russian television in order to understand what they are doing to their population, and the last, and the last, well, the biggest such trend that there was, literally it started on last week, it’s dragging on now, they’re trying for their own, well, it’s cyclical for them, they approached it several times, but the last very strong approach is happening right now, they’re trying... it’s to normalize a nuclear war for the russian population, they they talk about the fact that a nuclear war can be won, that a nuclear war can be limited, that russia can, well, at least respond and we

will not all die, but only some part will die, well, maybe you know this story, when simonyan, margarta simonyan said that we can detonate a bomb over russia there, and after that everything will turn off and we can do something like that, but why bother, it will turn off the satellites. it will turn off all the satellites, why, that 's another question, okay, the question is that they are now trying to make some nuclear a test that would be very large and would terrify everyone, and since they can do this test only on the territory of russia , it is necessary to normalize it for russian citizens, and a strange thing came out, because after several days of this very active propaganda, a number of, well, such small politicians, semi-oppositional, even there one member of the state duma from the communists, and one from united russia, began to tell that something

should be done about them. propagandists who talk about it because it is impossible, well they have to face these talks about nuclear weapons, ugh, on the voldai forum, putin was forced to come out himself and say that he does not support the use of nuclear weapons , now the changes in russia's nuclear doctrine, it's not him, it's not him, it's all a type of propaganda, and, that is russian, it is clear that the russians, they, they are afraid of the perception by the russian population , or rather the non-acceptance by the russian population of ideas about nuclear war, about some limited nuclear strikes, which they endlessly talk about, about tactical nuclear strikes, which they endlessly talk about, and against the background this to me i'm just wondering how effective it might be in this case if in response, they publicly, not publicly, but heard that any attempt to use

a nuclear ... weapon in any case, they will receive exactly such a nuclear strike, because the population of russia is really afraid of it, maybe it's time to work with this fear, ah, i don't know , it seems to me that you know more than i do about it, i 've seen different studies in russia, that's for sure, people are very afraid of nuclear weapons , that theoretically, if we can convince them, what their power leads to this apocalypse, it needs to be, like a movement, an anti-nuclear movement in russia, maybe i don't know. and there is something in it, well, i am such a strange society, you know, we often apply the logic of democracy, yes, to russia, and there everything is different, yes, it seems to me, sometimes, especially, that ukraine is like that there is a historical understanding of russia, but the ukrainian society has developed in such a different way over the past 30 years that i often, when i talk to ukrainian political technologists, i hear how they apply

democratic logic to russia, yes, for now... for sure, your power leads to horror, but there everything is a pertormashka, i don’t know if everything works as it will work there, there is a kingdom of hidden mirrors, i don’t know, but what will work there, we can't expect, i think we can't expect a coup there, well, we have the same situation as with the support of the germans, hitler hitler nazism is very similar, very similar, very similar, very similar, and in such in such a situation, what? what should we push for at least to prevent them from really being allowed, what is the goal after all , let's not, well, understand what the goal is, let's see what the goal is, but it's not our goal here, our goal is to drive them out of our territory in general, well, yes, and to win this way in a way, for example, well, look, we are simple targets, yes there, well, to knock down the mobilization, yes there may be, i don’t know, stockpiles in

i don’t know, in productions there are important for for and for the production of weapons, well, probably with this you need to start such things, well, what we really don't understand, well, that's how it starts any propaganda there during the war, yes, how will it cause problems in their military production and the military machine , well, the focus is always on this, yes, how to make the soldiers desert, well, and so on, well, this is the first, yes, the simplest and the same i think that everyone is already engaged in this, with different levels of success, if we are talking about larger social changes, here it is necessary to always combine military actions, well , communication, political and so on, it is necessary in one thing, yes, they must work together at the time wars, and even when i'm not i know, ukrainian drones reached moscow, and to what extent were we able to expand this information everywhere and return it in such a way that... well

, the kremlin power looked weak, did we make the most of the moment of the gorzhyn uprising, yes, we used it a little, well, did we make the most of it, i i don't know, to such a degree that we were able to really turn the informational part of this action to ours, to ours, to our victory, yes, i don't know, i'm just not involved in it, well, this is the next question, to such a degree physical actions, yes are supported sleepy, yes because they need to be maximized, well then the most important thing is our understanding , relations, relationships of information, and i don’t know, public different moods, with a change in the political calculations of the kremlin, yes, because that is what we are looking for, yes, this is the moment