[000:00:00;00] paradoxically, we can act as certain mediators in order to conduct a dialogue on this platform as well, and the fact that there is quantitative progress, the number of countries was mentioned, but with each such, with each such new meeting, more and more countries join , i think that this is also a significant result, the dialogue is expanding, now it is necessary to form quality, add quality, in all these directions, but there is one nuance, here is also the last remark literally, the problem is not only , well, in the global architecture, the problem is in that there are certain fields. regimes that want to have access to all the benefits of civilization without internal transformation, well, that is, roughly speaking, and the same spread of nuclear technology, they say, we want to have nuclear technology, because it is a guarantee of our security, at the same time we want to destroy israel, and we understand that, well, these two theses are mutually exclusive, well, that is, unfortunately, that is, there is a whole series of political regimes on planet earth, which by their very nature, in

principle, constitute a threat to the existence of planet earth, and they want that some defends its right to destroy israel, but the russians defend their right to destroy ukraine, well, china continues to defend its right to single-handedly decide the fate of billions of people, well those who are around it, yes, and as they believe historically, there is a great china, where are they? time reigned, well, in iran they believe that it is absolutely normal to execute journalists there, well, somewhere else they consider something else to be so, absolutely adequate, and around that. there is some problem, well, a problem, but they will agree on something else, well, there is business, but the transformation of political regimes, and it is necessarily on the agenda, really poses a huge threat to a certain number of subjects of international law, because they believe that these processes can hardly be pushed from the outside, that's right, let's before moving to europe , i want to talk about what is happening here, there is another event, another meeting that will practically take place in parallel, this is already

the first meeting. ministers of china and the minister of foreign affairs of china are already in washington and we are expecting a meeting between xi jinping and biden, it would be it is very naive to believe that the topic of ukraine and its fate will not be discussed there, what do you expect us to do now, maybe this is an explanation why china is not in malta yet, yes, they always are, they are like the russians, they want to decide on the town, americans, but everything will have to be negotiated with us, maybe, what about you? i still don't understand one and a half years of the war, and here we are, they still have this kind of attitude towards us, you know, those who work here , i spoke with chinese diplomats, they understand, they understand, we need to communicate so far , just the first p no no no first attempt when they came, a special representative came with a strange last name, who for some reason in ukraine transformed, well, they, well, understand from the beginning, the first attempt did not work, yes, and then

, yes, they are not ready, but for now, yes, they may understand, think to expect something threatening for ukraine in the future from these negotiations, no, i think that i think that no, here is another thing, the main thing is that they agree , so that the process of dialogue continues, so that there is no confrontation, in particular on taiwan, the states and between the states and china, yes, but for us, i don't think there will be any a specific agreement, there are no prerequisites yet, at the beginning of the war, i had such an experience, we communicated: with certain research institutes in china, well, approximately at the level of the kyiv school of economics, they are former officials or professors there or understand politics quite well, have acquaintances, friends in the government, in several

governments, but not the government themselves, uh, and they said that china... wants to have a seat at the table that will decide the future of ukraine and russia, uh, what the americans, similar level that we we communicate, also stanktanki and so on, research institutes in washington responded to us privately and said, yes, they can have a place at the table, but at their own, this is what volodymyr says, if they sit at the same table, then ukraine has much better chances. it is possible, i will add, one specific thing, let's also have one specific thing , at which table, what interests them, they want to participate in the reconstruction of ukraine after the war. oh, this is what we heard from the first days of the war, no, and the second point, they fear that due to the weakening of russia, they will strengthen geopolitical competitors of china, and the states in turn fear that due to the weakening

of russia. china will intensify, that is, this discussion between them is not about ukraine, it must be understood, it is about russia, and what you said, that is, they are not really interested in what will happen here in ukraine, that is, everything is clear with ukraine in principle, well, reconstruction, yes. okay, some mutual things, they are very interested in what will happen to russia , china is very interested in this, it is a story about money, not like that, well, at least share the influences, let's say so, and share if, further mutual, yes, on whom it will be more oriented, on whom it depends more, will be doing, i think, they will put up, well, even the opinion of certain experts that the blame is still not inevitable, the question is how long, so that the two countries are not ready yet. maybe the question is, how do the americans prevent it from happening, well, it didn’t happen through military means, yes , they want to use soft power there, and they want to influence, they basically buy all of them there, then they all go to retire in china, you know, what is

the problem, as i understand it, they can no longer talk about taiwan, but about siberia there, well there, you know, as one of my friends , valik, said, you are a smart person, if the chinese wanted to colonize siberia, they would have done it 3000 years ago, no, well, they are colonizing, they are a quiet sap. they are colonizing, there are concessions, there are many places where you can live, yes, that is, but if where it is cold, there the haysians blow out, the situation is difficult, real, there are internal structural problems, structural problems are when different branches of the economy do not interact well enough, for example, one industry gained very fast, fast, very fast speed development, and another industry , which is very important in the framework of supplies to this industry, cannot develop so quickly... and this can be a trigger for a crisis, and an imbalance, and these problems exist, they are expected, not so long ago, there 5-10 years ago, everyone expected and drew

forecasts when the chinese economy would become bigger, after the first in the world with the american one, now no one makes such forecasts, they are a bit in the past, that is, china has a number of economic problems, what if? they cannot be solved, over time they will turn into domestic political problems, well, i'm somewhere i read that, excuse me, the latest about china, that it has terrible foreign debts , and they can simply stop giving money to them, borrow money for development, everyone has foreign debts there, well, whatever it is, you just know, this story is inflated by russia, that in the states, i really wanted to return to europe, i wanted less than 20 minutes, let's move on, because about who, with whom do we start, well, the biggest problem, for me, is this new tandem of orban and fitszó, slovakia-hungary, both distinguished themselves in the last week simply some colossal ones statements, it seems to me that they shake each other's hands like this, everyone is satisfied

with life, now each other has an ally, but together they block what we have already talked about, yes 50 billion, even if it is for four years going forward, all this aid will be calculated, in principle, these signals, they sound quite threatening to us , that, you know, some kind of pro-putin coalition is being formed in europe, two countries, it is clear, but with such an aggressive, populist, anti-ukrainian, it is even possible say and let it not directly pro-russian position, these are only two countries, yes, no, no, well, i mean, they still do not say that it is necessary, yes, that we support russia, it is necessary to introduce troops from... yes, yes, no , they talk about peace, we are for peace, this, this is a cover, this is such pacifism , yes, this is a cover for the actual pro-russian position, pacifism, only it is written through other letters, no, no, here it is, the trouble is that they are now, that orbán is not alone now, if

, for example, in some issues of confrontation with the european commission earlier, hungary was together with by the polish government, but not in matters of the war in ukraine, the situation was different there, but now there are two countries. they can act together, yes, in tandem, but i see another problem, and this concerns not only their pro-russianness, but what, for example, the prime minister of the netherlands said, just the other day, or yesterday, or even this morning, that for the future, just what you need to switch to an economy regime in the european budget, ugh, that’s selfish interests, you know, like the republicans in the states, yes, that’s ukraine important... of course, yes, but we have to take care of our own interests, but there is a certain danger here, i think that in hungary and slovakia they will try to neutralize them a little, they will look for compromises and

so on, they will be given something to support allocated money for us, but here is the fact that selfish interests will grow within individual european countries, and this will also affect the discussions about the general european budget, there is a danger, it was not for nothing that we turned off the ambassador... ireland today about talking, what's up you know, this is one of the biggest, it seems to me indicators that there is always not enough money, there is money for ukrainian refugees , they live in refugee camps, you understand, but i don’t, i understand, you just have to understand that, apparently, the europeans are starting to catch up one simple truth, that a large part of ukrainians who spend time abroad today are not refugees anymore, but migrants, and they are treated as migrants, because there are more and more number plates on kyiv license plates, and mercedes cars, well, let's face it, in poland they a lot, does it become more in ireland, i'm not sure, mr. timofiyu, i put it this way in ireland , there are just more of them, because an ordinary refugee is unlikely to go to ireland where he can, that's why i think the irish have noticed who is currently

renting an apartment in ireland, there is the most support , let's go back to our history, i want to ask, you see, mr. volodymyr says that i think they will be pressured and their position will be changed a little using certain economic levers, but i got the impression that it was precisely because the eu did not dare that's it, a black duck in its family, what are we we know, has many problems with corruption, with the political system, and with the economy, nevertheless, it receives just as much help. only received, due to the fact that they were not brought to their senses, now a second country has joined them, if they see that it is possible to behave like this in the eu, speaking absolutely clearly against those values ​​that are declared there, and economically, you are for it nothing will happen, then god forbid such countries, there may be more, well, there are precedents when there were problems in european countries, including with espionage or corruption, they exist, there have been some period... ago, some time ago, the special services of austria were disconnected from the general

information of the special services of europe, due to the fact that there was such a level of distrust in the special services and before the leak, including to russia, hungary, you mean , austria, i do not mean hungary, i mean, i specifically raise this as an example, that is, in democracies such problems occur, and this is each of them, this is not the beginning of the end of the world or the euro-eurouse, but if... even in austria has such problems with corruption and sabotage, all with double agents within the special services, if the former minister or prime minister talks, well, in short, about connections in russia and wants to move and is not in austria now, because yes, he is under investigation, if this happens in democracies, and i am a little aside for one

sentence i digress, but when obama's seat in the illinois senate was sold for a bribe of 5 million dollars and people went to prison for it , that means corruption exists, corruption exists in developed democratic states and is being fought against. now returning to fico, fico himself, that is, the prime minister of slovakia, he is already the third once, the third time, well, there were two periods. because of the scandal that killed a journalist, just like our gongadze, because of such scandals he left, that investigated a journalist, corruption, connections with the mafia, what was the leak , that one minister is connected to fico in his office, had to resolve the issue so that the businessman who was suspected of murder would not be arrested. that is, we are talking

about a real person connected not only with corruption scandals, but with murders, and this person today, today, quote, declares that ukraine is the most corrupt country, and went further, further, further, this is the person who six years ago , four, excuse me, five years ago, received suspicion, and if she didn't have it, they wouldn't remove it, then they refused to remove it from she is immune, she would then sit down. not about this issue, this person comes to power again, and she feels, i understand, that she will not be punished for this, that ukraine will not receive any sanctions, all subsidies, and hungary did not receive everything, so come on, she would is for survival, if this person had not come to power today, he would have had a lot more problems, now let's look at poland, we say, these four countries, they are above the visegrad four, this is the czech republic, this is poland,

these are words. and this is hungary, today the people returned and tusk's team returned to poland, before that poland in principle had a lot of problems with judicial reform, with law enforcement agencies, and they didn't want to talk about it very publicly, because they strongly supported it at the beginning that government of ukraine, here, but there were real problems there, if you... spoke from brussels with the people, they were worried about poland much more than they were worried about hungary in practice, so they were afraid that this two, three, or two would be formed. believe, hungary plus poland, they would have cemented a bloc in the east of europe, which would be anti-european, first of all, not even anti-ukrainian, but anti-, anti-eu, and this did not happen, democracy worked, maetnyk returned and brought

the pro-european force back to power, the same thing will happen in other countries, democracies work like that, it was the same with us, with yanukovych was in power and we ourselves. elected, we ourselves elected yanukovych, our people, people, and some of the people i know voted for yanukovych , sincerely believe that it is better than the alternative, yes, that's how democracies work, unfortunately, unfortunately, we carry a big price, that's why i'm not too worried, because there are three mechanisms of deterrence of these two countries in particular , the first within this quartet, they are prime ministers before putting forward a position for europe, for them they coordinate, why is it important, because they themselves people in these countries are used to looking at the positions of others countries, not only to your own country. therefore, if poland has a different position, it will stabilize the position of slovakia and hungary. if, of course, poland were now anti-european, anti-ukrainian, then

we would have a real problem. second, there is a real financing mechanism for law enforcement agencies and others. and there is a third, there is a bypass mechanism. ugh, veto rights for financing ukraine, such a mechanism exists, we have already seen it, no one wants to use it, so as not to destabilize and unbalance the system, but they are threatened, and there have already been precedents when hungary blocked aid to ukraine, it was simply carried out by the fact that there was a real threat that a decision would be made without it, and hungary wants to be in the game and negotiate, that is why the mechanisms exist and to order, this eastern european situation worries me much less than the current one situation, i'm sorry, i don't want to get back on topic, but i'll say it as it is , in the states, by the way, you see, i think the situation in europe is much better for us than it is right now, locally, short-term, we have

less than 10 minutes left , 2.5 minutes request to everyone to answer the question that we put in the headline, is this the situation of hungary and slovakia, is it a threat of some new block, is it really in a thaw, or is the situation in ireland and the situation has already been formulated there by sweden, the czech republic, austria, when ukrainians are already being paid just go home, get out, is this the beginning of some kind of decline, yes there was a tide, and now ukrainians will say thank you, as you said, yes, we have our own problems, prime minister of the netherlands, let's get used to something else, or cook now ukrainians in europe and us here are having a hard time times, which one day may not happen to us, minute by minute, very briefly, in fact, here we are not talking about the attitude towards ukraine, but about internal, socio-economic problems, migration problems, and they differ in individual countries, somewhere, for example, general the country of migration, well, the migrant problem, it is more urgent, and somewhere, for example, germany , by the way, i think that this is the case in most european

countries, it is not a desire to expel ukrainians from their territory, but just advice and a suggestion, persistent, you have to choose , you either return to your country and help it, yes, because the situation there has been stabilized for a long time, or work, learn the language, work here, yes, work for our country, choose your status, this is what valentin said that they no longer refugees, but migrants, yes, yes, yes, and this choice is in principle many, many have already made this choice, yes, and some are in the process, so you will understand that they have made a choice, but they will reconsider very quickly . when they will make you pay for housing, but what's the point, no, well, listen, there are already many, here is valentin says there, yes, yes, i, i personally know, i just came back, i was visiting my daughter, i came back, i saw a house, dozens of ukrainian families, representatives of the middle class, and some do business in ukraine

and live there, well, this is a separate problem, the main thing, you understand, now we just need to put this problem in order, and that's it... just, well, financially , the situation with our forcibly displaced persons in europe is being put in order, and this is also a separate problem, i think it will be put in order, there will be less money to spend on it, it is necessary to prepare for it our citizens, and the last thing, this is the most important thing for us, for the country, to preserve the political, macroeconomic and military support of ukraine from the european union, this is the most important thing, this was clearly a pass for you, they will have enough of their money on us and political will, the amount of money, a percentage of the entire european gdp, or the american up, which is needed for ukraine, for victory, not even... just to maintain the status as it is now, but for such a decisive victory over russia, is really insignificant, because

the russian economy itself , even in the best of times, this is the economy of italy, you understand, this is not the economy of the european union, this is the economy of italy, now there is also support, only without ferrari, but at the expense of oil, and at the expense of what ferrari is fueled with, here is the support that the united states of america gives us, well in their defense budget is 800 billion dollars, a trillion dollars, well, that is, we are 5%, 3%, they restrain their strategic adversary, russia, this is a well-known argument, that is, physically there is money, but in reality, it is, politically, we somehow become hostages of the political process, internal, conjuncture, a minute, a minute, let's swim. of this political conjunctural process. well, of course, well, because there is still, well, democracy, of course

the will of the people, popular sovereignty, all these flaws of democracy, but nevertheless there is still a process of praising a political decision, well, there is still a rational grain, there are international organizations, there are a lot fuses that make it impossible, to put it bluntly, that a fool came to power and took over, did, how will he be replaced, well, yes, it does not work, that, well, putin only thinks that trump will come and he will the kind of america that putin wants, well, it doesn’t work, well, institutions, not individuals, have been working for a long time, and institutions are collegial, there is a very complicated process of approval and development of a decision, this is a so-called deliberative democracy, that’s why this alarmism is good , of course, you know, it is better to show more attention than to neglect something, but also excessive apocalyptic moods, well, really. listen, thank you for the interesting conversation, but i have to say that it's unlikely to be a very quiet weekend, here's the latest

news i'm reading, the foreign minister of jordanian affairs claims that israel has just started a ground operation in the gas sector, erdogan will not quote him there, and the price quotations for metals and oil have increased extremely sharply, oil is already at $150, and it is normal, now he will make money and israel will stop its da , let 's follow what will happen, gentlemen, thank you very much for this extremely interesting conversation, one smooth political expert with us was tymofiy mylovanov and volodymyr fesenko. thank you, and we will follow the news. thank you, good evening, 1.1 continues national telethon. natalya ostrovska works for you in the studio, i'm yevhen plinsky, and today with you traditionally, at this time , the project "is a worthy discussion platform where we discuss topics important to the country, and today's broadcast we decided to call how

young people understand war and whether they understand it in general, well, to understand this topic, interesting, in my opinion, we invited ruslan denichenko, co-founder of stopfake, and iryna gubeladze, doctor of psychological sciences, president of the association of political psychologists of ukraine. and now, we ask, before we explain why we chose this topic. watch your video, without comments, what do you know about the defense of mariupol, nothing, nothing , no, i don't know anything, i don't read the news, what, and i don't like to burden myself with bad news, and i'm for good, and there everything is bad and i don't want to burden myself, how did the defense end? mariupol, at the moment, no, it was may 20, 2022, and the defense was stagnating

, and it was stagnating, well, until now, how to say it, until now, well, i forgot what these things are called, test, in short the power plant is being occupied, i'm just saying, well, this, this video has been circulating on the internet, a large number of different discussions, with claims to young people, with misunderstanding, why they don't understand this, why they answer like this, and are not in the context of the war, and here we decided not to try not to condemn the youth, yes, for such a lack of understanding of the war, but to figure out why a year and a half after the full-scale invasion, when the whole country talks only about the war every day, and the youth mostly stay away from this information, we do not able to speak with them in the language they understand, well

, there are some young people here, and i saw this video with reposts and comments in my feed. horror, shame of the nation, how could this be, we now want to think with a cool head, why some young people, i notice that some, far from all, they are engaged in fakes and manipulations, it is better than wanting to film in their heads such historical events in which we live, in fact, what was your first reaction when you saw this video, ms. irina, it started with you, well, i was outraged, but you know, outrage not even what the participants of this video talked about, the youth, and in particular, why this information is distributed and this data is distributed, gained such, er, such coverage, er, why are they supported by the official media, and actually, why these conclusions will apply to all young people, i got acquainted with this video literally while preparing for this

broadcast, i did not meet him, let's say, just in the information space. due to the fact that i also filter it, ah, but i have questions, why the conclusions of several people, the comments of several people are positioned as research, journalists, and so, well, in people's heads it appears as a professional research, a blogger, a blogger, just went to the street, on khreschatyk in kyiv and talked to some young people, near a coffee shop, what's it called there, well, there's beer they drink seder and something else. they are treated there, well, it happened, mr. ruslan, like you, what was the first reaction, and i also would not dramatize the situation, first of all, because again, we, this is not a study that shows that all young people behave this way, we we do not know who these young people are, and when they were asked, and how many people there are in general surveyed, that is, this is not a representative study, but first of all, secondly, we

also understand that young people are mostly not viewers of television and marathons, where we have everything about the war, about events at the front, and these people live in computer games, in tik-toks, in entertainment content, so again, there is no need to set such high demands on them, and also such a moment, it seems to me, is important, young people, they like some kind of emotional, emotional information, some kind of entertainment. and well, the government is also trying to fence it off people from, shall we say, do, well, at least people have such confidence that there is a peaceful life here, and people are protected, and some young people take it so seriously, that is, there are several factors that influence why

precisely these people gave precisely such answers in this survey, therefore... again, i would not dramatize this situation, well, but today we have young people, in fact, who are dying for ukraine, defending our independence, who are at the front at such an age, as well as some polls, but there are young people, we will not now, to deny that there are people, young people, who do not want to know about events and defense, and not only young people, whatever, but why is this happening, as a psychologist, explain why people try to close themselves, and here is how one of young guys, he said, i... don't want this negativity, i don't, it's actually a normal protective reaction of the psyche and one of the strategies of a person's response to traumatic content, there is closure, yes, someone starts to transform it all into action, someone looks for himself like-minded people and gets stronger, someone somehow on he implements this on his front, so to speak, in his activities, and it's easier for someone to shut up, but there is still such a moment that when you are

interviewed, there is such a mechanism when a person does not want to speak, someone does not want to answer either. says no, i'm sorry, i won't answer, and someone just says i'm not interested in it, but it doesn't mean at all that the person is not interested, he just doesn't want to say something on camera, this is one of those ways to refuse , yes, especially since we don't see in the same video how many people actually refused, yes, if it was research, qualified done, well we only saw a few comments , we don't really want to focus on just this video right now, we want to talk more about what the information policy should be, specifically ours, what can we do wrong, what can we do, in order to in order to interest young people, so that they learn information about the war, because yes, we have standard readings, as we say, about the losses of the enemy, about the fact that shelling is taking place in different regions of ukraine, maybe we are doing something wrong, and we need to provide information in a different way, such as to work with her today, mr. roksan, you work in the information space, in particular, your organization there analyzes