[000:00:00;00] at the kyiv opera there, or the moscow opera, or the leningrad opera, or the odesa opera, or the lviv opera , because they immediately fled, because there is an opportunity to escape and live in new york and earn money, or in london or paris, and then they so, this is such a repetition, only not on the musical front, but on the military front. so, bohdan ferrens, candidate of political sciences, expert internationalist, is in touch with us. good health, mr. bohdan, thank you for finding me. time for us, good evening, look, this is a meeting in malta, we are very proud, not very a beautiful number 66 countries have joined the peace formula, many people in ukraine and abroad do not like the six, oh, but why was there no china, china has some kind of separate line of peace, if they have some kind of separate plan, or they just missed it, well no can the chinese

travel everywhere and participate everywhere, what is your version, mr. bohdan? well, i think that china really, they have, let's say, their vision, their proposals, they tried to get involved, we remember these chinese proposals about, consultations, about finding some peace initiatives, they, let's say, were not successful, then china a little bit, it felt like it disappeared, from at least from the copper space, but i think that first of all, now china is preparing for talks directly at the highest level between, biden and between swidzinping, and the focus first of all, he was sent there, especially since they are making visits right now, earlier there was a visit by blinken to the heavenly chamber, now to the new foreign minister and to the white house, so here

, in principle, you need to... understand that for now, i think , china sees priority, yes let's say, in this bilateral format, the usa, china, this is the first thing, and secondly, it was possible , in principle, to send a representative to this meeting, secondly, maybe china took a certain pause for now, and for me there was always a question , is china really interested in the russian -ukrainian war ending as soon as possible and a just peace being achieved, i still... think that it is unlikely that china sees such a priority for itself, that is, the desire to be on the field of mediation after all and show their ambitions are global, and they cannot neglect ignore the context of the russian-ukrainian war, that's why they got involved in more than a year there and several months of full-scale invasion in this, so to speak, backstage at first, and then negotiated certain format,

but they didn't... so far we don't see that they were super actively involved, and we understand that there are also very serious differences between our western partners, us directly, regarding the achievement of a just peace, and china, some other countries that, so to speak, indirectly take a position in the context of the russian-ukrainian war. mr. bohdan, look, no matter how much i read president zelensky's 10-point peace formula, it is very popular and these 66 countries, as it were, did not approve, but understood this formula, but when i read , i absolutely understand that it is, how is it for all the good against all the bad, there in 10 of these points, they are not, they are universal, yes, they are really universal, but they are universal for the whole world, any war starts, you can lay the table 10 points, un charter, ceasefire,

exchange of all for all prisoners. them and so on and so on, that is, it is nothing so extraordinary, it is because i simply do not understand, or because there is simply no other version of appeasement in the world, yes, there, if one tribe in if africa attacks something else, then we really need to exchange, hand over corpses, exchange prisoners, look at the un charter, stop the war, sign a peace treaty, and so on. please, well, first of all, you need to understand that our vision is not only communication about achieving peace with by western partners, that is, yes, we see that the world, so to speak, is quite heterogeneous, different countries, they evaluate the context of the russian-ukrainian war in different ways, and in our strategy there is a desire

to form the widest possible coalition around our proposals, that is, yes, not only... once again, i emphasize those constant partners of ours who, from the first days of the full-scale invasion, clearly recognized who is the aggressor, who is committing war crimes, it is russia, and who should be supported, it is ukraine, as a victim of this aggression, there are eastern countries, that is, yes, the far east, yes, it is close the east, there is the arab world, there is the south, the african one, let's say, yes, the region , directly, is latin america, that is , that is where russia, unfortunately, is trying its own, such and such, enough, enough, propaganda narratives. and this distinction, it tries to focus on these countries, that is, constantly communicating with politicians and political forces and even trying to throw its vision, its

context into the media space, saying that they also seek peace, but they say that there are western countries and ukraine does not want this peace, that is, there is a struggle for it attention and for the truth, within the framework of this struggle, a tool, a peace formula, it helps in principle on such really quite general positions, for example, as nuclear security, as food security, energy, that is, to form more consolidated coalitions, they can be temporary, that is, with countries of different geography, that is the main goal, because if this is not enough , such a general context and the interest of other countries is enough, because all countries are interested in not having a world war, a nuclear war, well , that is, yes, there is such a logic, and around that in order to protect the world from this, from nuclear danger, it is also necessary to involve non-western countries.

there are also issues of a humanitarian nature, yes, regarding the children deported by russia and the return of prisoners, and around such humanitarian issues, it is easier to form broader coalitions, the logic... precisely of our diplomacy is that the more countries are involved, the more the louder their position will be, the weaker this destructive policy and actions of the russian federation will be. mr. bohdan, a little to philosophy, but a universal formula, as far as i am concerned i understand, not formulas, not organizations , that is, we cannot find a way for the world to exist in a peaceful state... the un does not fulfill its tasks, and european structures do not fulfill their peacekeeping tasks, that is, it is enough

for one hooligan to go to the world court, as in this yard they become, well, it becomes just a gangland and everyone starts fighting with each other, i understand correctly, this is history and this is really philosophy, because well, we remember that the stages of this history, they were connected with protracted wars, there are 30 years old, century, then there was the first world war, the second world war, and in principle, these tragedies of catastrophe should teach humanity to come up with other proposals for coexistence, in my opinion, quite successful, and it remains, there is a project of the european union, after all, it was a reaction to the end and the tragedy of the second world war, that is, when the enemies... who were constantly finding out among themselves and before redistribution arranged a center of influence, primarily germany, france, other countries, that is, there was an understanding of what

was needed coexist in a peaceful way, and we we see, after all, the european union, despite the criticism, despite the internal context of problems and challenges , remains a place of security, it is important, really under the umbrella of tu, mostly, but it is important, that is, but for that it was necessary that the aggressor, yes, nazi germany to lose completely in this second world war, world war, that is, it is very important , indeed, that the aggressor is punished, and we all need to work on this together, it is not easy, it is sometimes difficult, the world is becoming more and more explosive, let me say this , and we may we are entering the decades of confrontation between autocracies and the liberal democratic west with the usa, these er, such crisis moments, they can continue, and even more can be dangerous, such coexistence, so to speak, of different poles of power and vision of how the world should develop, but everything after all, after

such historical stages, i would say that it is very important that the aggressor bears the punishment, yes, but for this, humanity should be kicked in the ass by this cock. and when humanity is scorched by the war, which ended conditionally yesterday, then 50-70 years later, humanity says: no, no, let's do it don't repeat it, it will be bad for us, but if it doesn't happen, as we see, we lived in peace for 50, 70, 80 years, that's all, we have to fight a little, but russia started, then, the armenian-azerbaijani conflict, then the middle east and so on, maybe the chinese is approaching china, china is against china, in short, a lot of problems arise here, and when you say that the european option is good, i sometimes think that it is beautiful, when america is behind it. with 12 aircraft carriers, then the class, we are only on ourselves, on

food and on education and on medicine and on science we spend money, the guys over the ocean are spending on war, so , well, things have changed a little now, you see, i mentioned that the nato sub-colony, of course, but now the rethinking is happening in the member states of the european union, they are now spending a lot more of their budgets for this re-equipment, because this danger, it stands, as you say, like this rooster that pecks, that is, to take more such drastic steps to secure themselves in the first place, because everyone cares about their safety, everyone wants, ok if there is a conflict if there is a war, so that it is at least localized and predicted, then this is sometimes also the strategy of some countries, but as the historical context shows , in some places even recalling the first world war, and these events... that preceded it, then in some places we do not feel, do not appreciate this

scale, and now we are really in a very dangerous period, such a historical one in my opinion. thank you very much, bohdan ferenc, candidate of political science, international expert was with us, a huge thank you to him for finding time on sunday. i would also like to to say that we will have an advertisement, and after the advertisement we will have a sufficiently detailed conversation with igor simivolosy, the director of the middle eastern research center. finally, we will understand what is happening on the territory of the state of israel, which includes both the gaza sector and judea samaria, in short, everything that is happening in israel around, but this is only after a five-minute advertisement, damned stairs, they are no longer walking, wait, i will live to see that there is no health, and what kind of health is there in the sixth decade. i thought so until i tried herovital. gerovital +

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espresso celebrates its tenth anniversary in 2023. we are proud to present our new ethereal look. stay tuned for an updated espresso, because we'll stay in touch regardless. the information hour on the espresso tv channel continues. on communication with you, our viewers, to whom we are infinitely grateful for their trust. greetings, dear viewers, this is the big ether program on the espresso channel. espresso is 10 years old, we are developing and well, we are going further and talking about magnetic bors, we are becoming even more dynamic, even more convenient, the information day of telekanan is in full swing, we are modern design and sound, even more. interesting programs and original projects. the occupying garrison was surrounded, cut off from the main forces and destroyed. they will try, dawn. unchangeable our values ​​and ukrainian views remain. vitaly portnikov is with you and we

are talking about the main events of this week. vitaly portnikov and top experts about the most vivid events of the last seven days. ours. the guest will be lieutenant general of the ground forces, former national security adviser to the president of the united states, donald trump, herbert mcmaster. current topics, pressing questions, authoritative comments and forecasts in the information marathon project with vitaly portnikov. every sunday at 20:10 at espresso. good health, see mine back, and into the flag of israel and the flag of the gaza strip, let's say so. and in front of me. ihor simivolos, the director of the middle eastern studies center, will now appear, as before you, it is very nice that he volunteered to speak with us today, because really, until yesterday i was quite active on the side of israel, and this morning i read the article by mr. igor, and mr. igor's interview, where he says that oh, it's not that clear at all, and

i have good health then, thank you mr. igor for finding time for us, congratulations, congratulations, sir, yes, and i have a question, look, here i am... myself, it is hard for me to imagine that, in the possibility of such a thing, but i, this is a speculative question, if today there were more or less transparent elections in the gas sector, how many would vote for hamas, well, because i am very interested to know, there, they say, that the gaza strip is the people, and this is hamas, when you talk to jews from israel, they say, well, there are 95% of hamasites in the soul, here they are, they also voted for...' they voted, i just can't say, in zero years, when there were elections, hamas won on the ground, hamas won on the ground of gaza, and today there that everyone is against hamas and everyone is for peace, well, first of all, it is almost

impossible to hold elections now, there are polls that took place literally a month or a half before these events, and there they testified that ha was losing support, that is, this does not mean that the people of gaza were against israel, not against israel, no, they, no, they do not like israel, they are against israel, but they are unhappy with the rule of hamas, that is, based on this, if it happened there, relatively speaking, before events on october 7, it can be assumed, if available alternatives, well, in the form of fatah or... new leaders in the field, no, of course, not mahmud abbas, but there, say, barghouti, and it is quite important that these leaders, well, this population would vote there for fast, for barghouti

, that is, the question here is that, the population is traumatized, it will, in reality , vote for radical, radical groups, just hamas, from that point of view , given the events of a month ago, it is rather no longer responsive and did not meet their interest and improperly ensured their interests in the sector. that is, you can say that one of the reasons, certainly there are 150 million of these reasons, one of the reasons for this escalation, this war, is precisely that hamas felt that it was losing support if it was so massive. and something must be done, it must be restored, well, just like in 14th year, putin attacked crimea in order to get the support of his russians, and he got it, well, this option is not excluded, yes, that is, we understand, what is the situation, well, by the way, the flag is not the gas sector, it is the flag of palestine,

yes, that is, it is simple, if we, well, it is considered that the gas sector is part of the palestinian of autonomy, the truth that acts exclusively in the interests of hamas, that is, they separated, in fact, negotiations took place, and we know that negotiations took place with the mediation of egypt, and with the mediation and with the participation of israel , regarding the fact that the gas sector is returning to the gas sector civil administration, palestinian autonomy and the like, but in this case, this very idea ... was rejected by the zrai, that is, they opposed it in principle, because they did not really need it, but okay, but you say, mr. igor, you you say in your interview that, you know they said that this... netanyahu's policy, in fact, what is happening now has

more than one component, hamas, which is bad, and israel, but two components, and hamas has aggressive forces, or maybe it is all aggressive, and from israel's policy is very wrong, as i understand it, what is the mistake of netanyahu and his governments, well, netanyahu practically. in power, this is his last such coming, yes, to the israeli olympus, and in fact, the key task was to create a situation in which a palestinian state would not be possible, that is, the creation of a palestinian state, the israel of its time signed the oslo accords, which states the to state solution, and accordingly there is a strategic decision on the creation of a state and demarcation, the question of this group, led by netanyahu, but not only him, is to make it so

that, the united states of america, other countries, which are important to israel did not raise this issue of the creation of a palestinian state, and for this they needed hamas as a sparring partner in order to demonstrate that palestine cannot be dealt with , see what will actually happen if there is and country, for that it is enough to read, the israeli newspapers themselves, where it is said quite a lot, yes, that is, of course there, you can say that gareth does not like netanyahu and wants him to leave in every way, but i think that if netanyahu if he thought that garets was writing lies, then he would file a lawsuit against them, but he doesn't, so in principle it can be assumed that those articles and the information provided by garets are true, okay, that is, is it really hamas. and such palestinian radicals benefit, because there is

a very popular version that if everyone reconciles between themselves, and the saudis, and those and others, all the arabs will make peace with israel, israel will agree to the existence of palestine, then, immediately, there will be no place for hamas in this structure, no place for radicalization. it will not be, that is, me, is this a true story, that one of the reasons, yes, the jews here have their own opinions, people under the leadership of netanyahu, but there are also the same people there who understand that this is, how to say, rogue jargon there will simply not be layered money from various arab, rich countries, of course hamas is speculating on the palestinian struggle, and he is on the opera in general, and he finds resources precisely for this, and here is the fact that

he throws almost all the resources that go into the gas sector to the war, there is nothing surprising in this, in the conflict very often, in fact, most of the resources go on, for military purposes, if this or that group is waging a war, ah-ah, we can assume such an option that if... the decision is finally made, then hamas will lose its support, because the idea of ​​hamas, it, well, then it will unattainable, and the majority of the palestinian population, and hamas in the first place the queue is fighting for support among the palestinian population and not only the gas sector, but also the west bank, he then finally ate losses, that is, such a version is quite plausible and it may even... correspond to the truth, and of course there is an internal

agenda, that is, we have opposition and opposition in palestinian society itself between supporters of the islamic way of developing palestine as an islamic state and secular nationalist organizations that rather see the development of palestine as a secular state, but even in this situation then hamas will lose and will not be able to. get the majority of votes, the population is simple. i will briefly explain to the audience that the palestine liberation organization has two, two wings, the moderate one is fatah, which is located on the west bank of the jordan river, and hamas is the more radical, military part. mykola, hamas has never been part of the organization of the liberation of palasta, and it was not, but it was created. already when this organization existed, it is as if it was created not much later than, and it was in 87, it was

created during the first palestinian intifadas, at a time when the nationalist forces in the western berevsiz were defeated , but here is the question, and fatah supports hamas, says that the jews are to blame for everything, but hamas killed a very large number of fatahites in the zero years, when there were elections, when all this history, and were simply destroyed on the territory of the gas sector, the fatahites were simply destroyed, then the question is why they... support, if it would be more profitable for them to take the side of israel and and and the side of, say, moderate monarchies, and if they simply destroy this this hamas and everything, and then they alone rule, and you can negotiate with them as much as you can, this is also controversial, but it is much more possible than negotiating with hamas, well, if this version is entirely possible, i think

that many people do not want to see fatah in principle. hamas in general as a political figure of a political structure in palestine and they really compete and compete quite fiercely, you basically mentioned the events of 2007, this civil conflict in palestine, which arose precisely because hamas won the elections in the entire territory of palestine, there legislative bodies, but so could not launch either the government or the parliament, because all the representatives of... hamas were arresting israelis, and hamas blamed the very fact that they cooperated with the israelis, and this to a large extent, at their instigation, or with their assistance arrested ministers and members of the palestinian parliament on the part of hamas, but here, i would assume that the reaction of the palestinians of the west bank would be more obvious, and not

support for hamas, if there were no israeli settlements in the territory of the west. number, if there was no, actually, well, stay of the israeli army in these territories, if there had not been these constant clashes, killings of palestinians, seizure of their lands, it is obvious, obviously, the position and policy of hamas did not find support among the palestinians in the west. mr. igor, look, and that is, you know, here you have a con for and against , in your words i see the possibility of reconciliation, not a peace agreement, but one that does not shoot, that is, if we imagine a change in the leadership of israel, to a more moderate one , not ne netanyahu, if you imagine hamazun's defeat in the gas sector, as a result of, i don’t know, whether it is a military operation or something else, then in principle

, the construction, well, it looks like one that can lead to peace, and then the question arises whether the influence of iran, as far as i understand, there remains only iran among such states and such finances and such forces that can help both hamas and hezbollah, well first of all hezbollah , of course, but also hamas, there is simply nothing to rely on, moderate monarchs can also agree if they have already stood at the border signing agreements with israel and saudi arabia, then this means that peace is possible. am i right, mr. igor, peace is possible, and iran, in my opinion, will not be the main stakeholder in this case, because it can only play during a conflict, that is, it uses conflicts, confrontations and the unsustainability of the palestinian issue precisely for

that , to apply pan-islamism to spread their interests, if this problem is... solved and both sides agree to the principles of to state solution and the border of 67, but close to the borders of 67, then in principle, we can say that the influence of iran in greatly weakened in this region, the borders of 67, this is a reality, will allow, israeli society, east jerusalem to be given to the palestinians? well. obviously not, and there must be some compromises, by the way, in 2000, and a compromise was almost reached, for jerusalem, that is, to give somewhere else the territory and leave jerusalem behind, no, it was assumed that the suburbs of east jerusalem, the arab villages that can turn into a capital, i.e. then

change and become an actual administrative center, and perhaps there was control over,