[000:00:00;00] you enter ukraine and on the one hand you think that this is ukraine, on the other hand this is ukraine , it doesn’t matter, let’s figure it out, we have ukraine, or is it dagestan, relatively speaking, so let’s give it up already, there is a narbu narbutivka, there is a million cool, well, actually specific to the traditions of the ukrainian cossack baroque, for example, or ukrainian writing of some kind of hand, manuscripts and so on , fonts, and use russian... kuizhytsa from the 1980s, well, people, let's remember a little who we are , and about antisemitic, one more such a short thought, let's take a break right now after that, kszysto in zanussi, the director interviewed him for the publication sisters, this is a ukrainian-polish publication, which is made by ukrainian journalists who had to flee from the war, and the polish ones help them , and he said this, to this day it annoys me when

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comments, special icons and the possibility of personal communication with the espresso team. click sponsor and become part of the community with a ukrainian perspective. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already come to the snake itself. the following shots may shock you. news from the scene. live kamidze drone attacks. political analytics, objectively and meaningfully. there is no political season. exclusive interviews, reports from the hottest points of the front. freedom life frankly and impartially. you draw your own conclusions. dear friends, we are returning to the air and continuing our marathon, with us now will be oleksiy, haran, professor of political science at the kyiv-mohyla

academy, scientific director of the democratic initiatives fund, named after ilko kuchariv, by the way, the democratic initiatives fund recently conducted a survey. and now we will also talk a little about this survey, the survey was about upa and there were interesting results, mr. oleksiy, we congratulate you, good day, well, since this is a survey about the upad, we can clearly say glory to ukraine, to the heroes, glory, although it is not upa came up with, came up with this slogan, they already took it from kharkiv oblast, come on, it’s a bandera slogan, yes, well you can say the glory of the nation, death to enemies is also possible, well, it’s banderivsk, yes, ounivske, at least that, ovnivske, it’s possible , well, it’s possible, you can say that, yes, by the way, speaking of that, about these survey results,

actually ukrainians, for sure the war greatly contributed to this, they have become much friendlier to upa and to this historical legacy, and in particular to the figure of shukhevych, who is already much more... recognized and distinguished from bandera, conditionally speaking, is it good, ugh, let me i will tell you about this survey right away, because i have to sure, there’s something funny, yes, we must mention the partners, this survey was ordered by the center for research of the liberation movement, and we conducted it together with kmis, that is, kmis did a field study during september-october, i don’t know if you will show some diagrams. because i sent you these diagrams, and they will certainly be more clearly visible, but we will , we will show, you will, then immediately answering the question of mr. andriy, i will note that indeed, the war

had a substantial effect, that is, positively, until february 22 58 had a positive attitude towards upa respondents, but from now on, yeah, it's pashukevich's for now, well, pashukevich, it's also visible , so, well, you jumped over to upa, here, it's very, very clear to see that a total of 58% of the respondents before the war had a positive attitude towards the upa, and when a full-scale war began, 73%, and 63% had a positive attitude towards the figure of shukhevych as well. to the figure of shukhevych before the start of a full-scale war, and after that 76%. that is, it is obvious that the war really affected it very much, but i would like to emphasize that in fact these changes

inserted to the upa, and to and to uun, by the way, they were fixed earlier, that is, a lot of work was actually done with the beginnings of independents. and this work was carried out by various institutions, not state, but then state , in particular, the ukrainian institute of national memory, although here we can talk about zigzags, we remember the setbacks during yanukovych's time, and since 2014, that's all it came naturally, it came from below, because what used to be considered, well, such radicalism, now it was simply perceived as, as resistance, as resistance to russian, russian aggression, i.e. these changes happened and a lot of historians and public figures contributed to them, which i would like to point out that there is still room

for work, because when asked if you know anything about upa, 72% say yes, that's good , you show, but 23% say. that no, and it's even surprising to me, yes, that every fourth person interviewed says that no, they haven't heard anything about upa at all, well, but you know, there are people who are not interested. do not read, do not listen, well , there are such, if we talk about roman shukhevych, then there is even a higher percentage of respondents who they haven't heard him, yes, it's 44%, that is, 52% say that they know about shukhevych, and 44% say that they don't know, and i think you know that it is partially,

perhaps to some extent, our fault, and the press and politicians, because the whole chasder, bandera, bandera, well, actually, for those who know history, bandera in the 30s was in a polish prison, in the 40s, respectively, well, during the war, he was in sachsenhausen together with tytskyi, but the real struggle in ukraine was led by other people, that is , it was mykola lebyts, and then roman shukhevych, but we obviously know less about them, and you know, i won't forget here , i don't get tired of recalling the words said by the famous human rights defender, dissident, yevhen sverstyuk, a very wise man, he said that monuments should not be erected to bandera, but to ordinary people to the men and women of bandera, that is, what is it about, it is about the fact that, first of all, it is necessary to honor those who really went to oun and upa to fight and give their lives for an independent ukraine, let's not forget that bandera

was still quite a controversial figure, and i managed to i managed at one time to talk in the early 90s in the united states with mykola lebedz and myroslav prokop, prominent figures of aoun who knew well, who actually took part in all these stormy, stormy events at the time, and they said, i am not imposing this opinion to others, but they said that shukhevych's figure was actually... larger scale , larger scale, he was more flexible, he was, ah, less ambitious, and so, so i would say that this figure, well historians know about his role, yes, but in public opinion, this figure is underestimated, and therefore we definitely we need to talk about it, about it more, i would like to say one more, give one number, i'm not i'm not sure it's on... but i

'll give it to you because, for example, if we 're talking about polish - the ukrainian conflict during the second world war, then 86% either know little or nothing about it, yes, and this is precisely the issue where we obviously need to make, make, make efforts, again, the majority of them, they , of those who have heard anything about it, they believe that it was a fratricidal war that was largely inspired by germany and poland, sorry, germany and the soviet union, and that we should approach this issue with the principle of mutual recognition of mutual tragic pages and joint efforts

to turn over this bloody page in our, in our history, that is, this is such a pragmatic approach of ukrainians, but i will emphasize once again that 86% either know little or nothing about it, and this speaks volumes, and by the way, and it is very important, yes, because we know that it question, it is enough, it is highly politicized, it is highly politicized in poland, it is used by our ideological opponents and who play along with russian propaganda, that is, we need to know about this, we have a lot to work on, and in this context, there is a beautiful, there is a beautiful, by the way, film michael collins, or mykolo collen, about a precisely similar and comparable, probably figure with... the figure of shukhevych in ireland, who led a rebel struggle against

great britain for independence and mykolo kolen, actually she was screened and perfectly embodied in his image, liam neeson, and to me it seems that we lack such a tape that could explain , in particular for people, who, who is shukevich, because i am the same, yaroslav hrytsak says that for the role of a national hero, and such a role model, someone, whom it is possible to put these conventional saints in the pantheon of ukrainians, yes, er, this is it, shukhevych would really fit better than bandera , look, in general, i will say that, it seems to us, here would be... i was going, let's say, on the path , along the path of the poles, where everywhere there are memorials and commemorative signs to the communists, the regional army, and the army of the region, and i would do more, let's say, when we talk about renaming, the name of the streets, well, the heroes of upa, it seems to me that we need

to move away, you know, from such, well, to a certain extent , the soviet tradition, yes, that there is some one figure ... continuing with your point about, about feature films, you took it right off the tongue, because actually i think it's a real, it's a real problem, we have enough good documentaries, and it's very good that they're shown in different channels, including the press, i heard the comments, they say that well the only marathon should also show them, right? but we have enough of these, but we know that not all people will watch, they will watch documentaries , we need feature films, yes feature films

that captivate, unfortunately, let's say, these films that were filmed about bandera, about shukhevich back in the 90s, they were very schematic, incomprehensible to the viewer, that is, it could only be understood by someone who was well versed in history, and the actual history was extremely confusing, ambiguous, and to present it, well, in a feature film, it was b extremely well, unfortunately, there is no such thing, well, we saw it in the movies about petliura and the adaptation of the black raven, how, how good the book is. and how much and even the same storichcha yakov, where, by the way, there are pages connected with the word battle of the upa, and how weak the screen adaptation is, that is, here we still need our artists to make efforts in order to really make, well, i would say a hollywood

production here in the good sense of the word, yes, so that you can't break away, i would like to give one more figure, because i think it is very important, about how to evaluate activity, whether the struggle of the up was in vain or not, because we also hear such theses that they were defeated, so many people were, died, maybe it made sense to save this generation, this is, by the way, a rather controversial point of view, yes, because it is possible there was, there is a point of view that it was necessary to preserve this young generation and then it destroyed the soviet union from the middle, but 70... ukrainians from those who heard something about upa, she believes that the cure was not in vain, yes, because she , although the up did not win, but laid down

the tradition of resisting the aggressor, 70%, 16% more believe that it was a victory, because in the end, ukraine became independent, well, i think that this figure is 70%, it is very important, it shows, it shows, well, how important this struggle was for us now, which is a symbol, but i would still as a scientist, since that figure is 70%, it went everywhere and it's good that it went, but i would like to make a caveat that it is 70% of those who have heard anything about upa, yes, that is the real number is lower because 52% heard something and 70% of these believe that this struggle was not in vain and she laid the tradition of opposing the aggressor, i.e. 50% of ukrainians, it is still a good number, yes, i.e. i think that what a great way we have come, because i remember these debates

from the end of the 80s, in general i am a product of the soviet era, and i, here i confess to you, i believed soviet communist propaganda, that it was all nazi, meaning collaborators, servants and so on, and when the archives began to be opened, that is, it was really the end of the 80s that this began to be discussed , since then , this falsification began to decline, and we started gradually approach this one, i will say it again, because it was not easy. this is a difficult topic, because you know, now we shouldn't present these people as angels, they were products of their era , and this was a war, that's why there were different things about it

, that's why we have to approach it in a balanced way, but give more and more information, and i think that then ukrainians will be able, ukrainians have actually already made a choice, that is, upa is already in the pantheon, in the pantheon of our heroes, we don't have much time left, mr. oleksiy, actually about soviet history, about the way she presented the history of ukraine in general of the entire soviet union, you mentioned the events of our shared page with the poles , and actually the vlyna tragedy, and it will always be there, even if we have super relations with the poles, it always walks around, and in those who say that we are also to blame for those poles anyway, well, what about them, ukrainians are all visible, i wrote an article for the election about the volyn tragedy about what

ukrainians know, and in fact, i asked my father , who is from volyn, and moreover, there, he told me that his grandmother told him about this, but he didn’t teach anything in history textbooks, i already learned about the prolyna tragedy when i started working as a journalist, my brother, who was already born during independent ukraine, he is actually the same age, he says that there is nothing about it in his textbook either there was no, and since we are now moving towards the west and building relations with them , we need to be able to even discuss this topic thoroughly with the poles, and we are not learning anything, i don’t know what we should do, the institute of national memory talk about let's figure it out, we don't know polish history either, because if we knew polish history better, we, for example, then the answer to what you did with us in volyn, we said, wait, what did you do with no, for example, in the former danzig, yes, poles were just 68%

of the ethnic composition of poland until the 45th year, we do not know this, we do not know how to master even polish propaganda, sometimes, because we do not know the history of our neighbors, we do not we know the history of europe, mr. oleksiy, well, once again, this is not a simple topic, i i think that it should be assumed here that each side will have its own interpretation anyway, and we have to... understand that in history often the heroes of one, one side are anti-heroes for the other side, yes, when we remember, well for example, let's talk about this topic, khmelnytskyi, well, for the jews it is a very difficult topic, the truth is, very difficult, because how many jews were slaughtered then, by the cossacks, who are our heroes, yes, and when we talk about it, you know, some topics, if deep, they should not be... brought up at school, there, because it is still difficult to understand, ah, for the young generation, which

there are inconsistencies and so on, that is, there are different degrees of immersion in a certain topic, if in junior high school we present all this schematically, yes, in high school, it is possible to show a more, as it were, a more complex palette, although it is not necessary. but if we are already talking about the study of the ordinary history of ukraine in the universities, then we can talk there, because the students are already adults and we can discuss everything with them, i think that when we talk about the volyn tragedy, you know, let's leave these calculations to historians victims yes i do not rule out the fact that if, well, you yourself raised the topic, this is a topic that cannot be discussed . answer in 30 seconds, but you know, i remember the words of adam michnik, which

he said at the founding congress of the movement in 89, who spoke about the painful pages of polish-ukrainian relations, that each side has to say, mea kulpa, my fault , that is, we should not get lost in what we did to the poles, we say meaculpa, and likewise the poles to the ukrainians, at the same time we should... understand the historical context, again, why it happened, and who provoked these two peoples, so among themselves , but what was done, that is, a crime, there were crimes, we must recognize them, if they were, it should not interfere with our good relations now, the poles remain our strategic partner and we should appreciate this partnership, mr. oleksiy, thank you, oleksiy garan, professor of political science at moglianskyi. of the academy, scientific director of the ilko kuchariv democratic initiative foundation, which conducted research on upa. thanks for being with us, stay with we, we still have one more hour

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