[000:00:00;00] people, yes , without committing mass war crimes, as we saw it in the territory of the mainland of ukraine, it is very important to say how crimeans actually, yes, ukrainian citizens treat these people, they call them panayehs, yes, i quote, that is by those people who came for some time, and they think that they are there some poems of tsilimir, they are treated quite negatively. that is why we, as the ukrainian state, call on russian citizens who are illegally staying on the territory of the peninsula, and they are all legally after the 14th year, because they did not enter the territory of crimea through ukrainian official checkpoints, did not take permission to live in the territory of crimea, as in the occupied territory, here are all these thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, we call on them until

the kerch bridge is intact , to leave the territory of the peninsula, so that they are not there by the time the territory is liberated, otherwise we will apply other norms, in accordance, of course, with international law, respecting international law, so that they leave the territory of crimea. mrs tamila, i am very grateful to you for this interesting conversation, for taking the time to join our broadcast, bye, bye. chevorons, approaching victory, based on the mortal danger that hung over the country, continuing the thousand-year tradition

of state-building in ukraine, proclaimed ukraine an independent, democratic state on august 24, 1991. for 346. glory to ukraine, glory to you blue mountains covered with ice. and you are great knights, not forgotten by god. fight, overcome, god helps you, truth is for you, strength and will are for you celebrates 1000 years of state formation, 105 years of struggle, 32 years of restoration of independence. the rules of a warm country - a high-rise building. get together with neighbors, inspect the house , hire specialists for insulation, prepare batteries, repair and adjust windows and doors, check electrical wiring, take care

of a warm room and personal equipment. take care of those who are more difficult, develop an action plan in an extreme situation, discuss the need for a backup generator, equip a room for joint heating, let's beat the winter together. chevrons approaching victory , and another year when we do not celebrate, but choose our independence, and another day when they try to deprive us of the right to be ourselves, and

another fleeting moment of a terrible war. which has been going on for centuries, but the whole world is already convinced that our independence should not be destroyed, drowned, burned, shot, and the greater our hatred, the stronger our independence, the closer our victory, independence, we prove every day. ukrainian gives freedom the occupiers tighten their tails after hearing about the ukrainians firewood and cotton. and we haven't mentioned 30-letter words yet. ukrainian is the language of the free. hrobchik, how are you? i feel it is difficult for you. maybe you are confused and it seems to you that nothing is working out right now. you know what i

do when i'm confused. i go to the mirror, look at myself, remember that i have already succeeded and say: i am well done, at the same time i just need to pat myself on the head, whether in imagination or in reality, you see how well done we are, we do what helps. at how are you.com are caring people from the mental program healthy people and their friends from unicef ​​have collected tips on how to help yourself and your child cope with stress. hello friends, thank you for being with us at this time. thank you to our viewers for choosing us, today yasya lepka and oleksiy gomon are working for you, and in the next hour we will talk with you about the top events of this week, for example, that there is no narrative in the west about super-corruption in ukraine and that no one fights with her, the head of ukrainian diplomacy said in an interview with forbes. on the conviction of kuleba it is said

exclusively about the media outpouring, they want to turn ukraine into a corrupt, hopeless state, and in fact, the minister of foreign affairs notes, neither at the level of the white house nor the heads of major eu countries, there are no special demands and claims regarding corruption in our country. on the contrary, during zelensky's visit to washington , the introduction of the law on a special anti-corruption prosecutor in the verkhovna rada and the decision on the selection of judges to the constitutional court were very positively evaluated, kuleba said. yes, well, do ukrainians feel the situation with corruption has improved our country we will deal with valentin hladkykh, a political scientist. mr. valentin, congratulations, thank you for traditionally finding time for us. my greetings, thank you for the invitation. mr. valentin, well, dmytro koleba insists that these theses are about the corrupt. ukraine, which we hear more often from the west recently, is connected, firstly, with our european aspirations and our path to the european union, they say, this is one of the reasons on which they will play in order to to slow down our path to the eu, and

the second reason is the upcoming elections elections in the united states of america, and it is this thesis that is used by those who are in favor of reducing aid to ukraine or against it, in general, these two reasons, that's all, let's put it this way , is it likely that we started to hear this thesis, for some reason, there are other reasons, there are , there are also internal political reasons for this, well, because these accusations of corruption, corruptness, this is generally a win-win option, well, in addition, we must realize that , unfortunately, we still have not agreed on what we consider to be corruption or corrupt actions on household level, well, public political opinion, and what is considered appropriate actions from the point of view of current legislation, and there are many things that from the point of view of current legislation can be considered, well, abuse of power, there illegal enrichment, there other corrupt

actions, well, but from the point of view of people's ideas - that's ok, and on the contrary, there are a lot of things that are considered crimes, but they are not considered there, and this dissonance is present, that's why it is from this ... to start further there is a certain inertia of thinking, that is, we talked a lot about the criminal regime of yanukovych, and then something, those criminal practices that gave us the right to call the criminal regime of yanukovych in the legal space for some reason, yes, and well, ended up by and large with nothing, but simply a political assessment was given to the previous, yes, the previous government in ukraine, therefore, here it was necessary to consciously realize that the problem is much more complicated and, again, it is impossible to single out only ukraine here, that is , the impression is that this is a purely ukrainian phenomenon, there is no more of this, but for some reason they forget

about berlusconi, sarkazy, the chancellor now austria, fice also forgot something, that he, and fice in general, is a separate story , there was not just corruption, there were connections with criminal, organized groups, the murder of an opposition journalist, the authorities as a result of essentially revolutionary events, well, what am i talking about that's all i'm saying that actually this rhetoric, well, it's very convenient, well, it's the same as accusing someone of having connections with the devil, but infer that you don't have connections with the devil, it's just that during the war it's more sensitive, a sensitive topic, because before the war, for example, ask... me i think that there was a thesis, yes, they all steal, for example, and it was perceived even as jokes were made, you understand, but one does not want to make jokes about corruption during the war, no, but there is another nuance, what

those problems that arise, organizational problems that cease to be faced by state authorities in war conditions, that is, do other systems have experience in solving them more effectively, that is, are all those problems that necessarily arise today, purely at the organizational level, or someone showed higher quality solving such problems, well, as far as i know in history. there were no examples when it all worked, the machinery is absolutely perfect, it would be very strange if it in ukraine suddenly, well, started to work so, fantastically, efficiently, it wasn’t yesterday that the system was created, we understand that it arose, it evolved in certain circumstances, under certain conditions, this is another moment, the third moment already, that is, of those listed, which are survey methods, for example, when they ask, do you think you are a racist, a person. no, no, i'm not racist, just like you do you think racism is widespread in society? no,

no, and your neighbor, yes, my neighbor is a racist. well, you see, yes, just like when they say that there is corruption in ukraine, yes, there is corruption in ukraine, and you have directly encountered corruption, well, the answers are different if we talk about where specifically you encountered corruption and what exactly do you consider to be corrupt actions, well, there can be absolutely certain dissonance, well, with that, that's why there is such a thing as custom. there is corruption, for example, that is, well, that is, some kind of domestic corruption, you have to mind you, everyday, well, there is, you have to realize that there are, you know, patriarchal closed communities, where we have, well, we are a part of the culture, which for us, after all, is not an informal relationship, has meaning, that is, sometimes they have more important than formalized relationships, yes, when who is someone's brother, or who is someone's son, godfather, father-in-law is more important than who has whom... what positions and who has functional duties, so i will repeat what

if it's so easy to make some general statements, i don't know these assumptions, well, yes, it all looks very easy and beautiful, but i repeat that we have not yet overcome this phenomenon anywhere, well, if we did overcome it, there would be no relevant organs, and since there are such organs, and since from time to time we see how similar situations arise, even in highly developed democratic states of the world with stable democracy, we can talk about the fact that this is a phenomenon, so it is a deviation, yes, it must be fought, so prevention must be created, yes, in order to reduce it spheres of socio-political, socio-economic relations for the occurrence of such a phenomenon, well, it doesn't matter, well , it will occur somewhere, listen, i 'll tell you more if the practices that are legalized in america are introduced in ukraine now.

then here we would whine so much about the terrible rampant corruption that our current situation would seem simply fantastic, but they reached an agreement , they said, well, you can, you can, you see, and that’s it, it’s normal now, my grandfather studied in stanford, my great-grandfather went to stanford, my great-great-grandfather founded this the stanford corps, which is the zno, we are joined now by the candidate of legal sciences, gennadiy dubov, mr. gennadiy, we ask you to take part in our discussion now, we are talking now about the level of corruption in ukraine at the everyday level and at the top level, and i wonder how much the period of full-scale war, let's take this last, last period of time, so revealing, how much has changed, has the tolerant or intolerant attitude in society to corruption, especially at the top, changed? from here you can speak immediately to cite the data of the kyiv international institute of sociology, which showed that the majority sees positive developments in the fight against corruption,

however, 40% consider the situation in ukraine with corruption to be hopeless. sir, please, mr. gennadiy, well, it is a difficult question, in fact, i think the main thing is the following, that there is no clear line by which the level of corruption can be measured, it is mostly given to us in our feelings, as given to us in our feelings from the point of view there are separate philosophical approaches, because all the ratings... are corrupt, they are mostly built on surveys, that is, on how civil society perceives, business, foreign investors , what the level of corruption is, and here we can actually say that rather, during a full-scale invasion, we did not change our feeling or attitude so much to corruption, how much has the motivation changed in terms of the negative characteristics of this phenomenon, that is, if earlier we talked about the fact that bribery is bad, because it is bad. because actually pensioners do not receive

pensions, and so on, it will not be provided there is the construction of roads, social guarantees, today we primarily associate corruption with military actions, with the deaths of people, here the motivation is actually anti-corruption, it becomes more powerful and clear, but again, does it become more in our feelings, to say , well, it’s quite difficult, rather on the contrary, these polls show that the actual message of the anti-corruption bodies... they are perceived by society, we really have many cases that are unprecedented in terms of the number of people involved, for example, the head of the supreme court has never been tried, and in fact, at the same time, this case is sufficiently communicated with the society and the materials of the criminal proceedings have already been opened, in fact these feelings of our society as a whole, they are built primarily on reports from the mass media, because a rather small number of people directly come into contact with corruption, because it's just that they have little

contact with the work of courts of principle, with the work of law enforcement agencies as well, and that's why this discourse, which... in civil society, in the mass media, it is formative, for business the factors are different, for business the factor is a direct collision with the tax office, with law enforcement, etc., and here in terms of this, we have other efforts of the state that collect round steel, we know that in the office of the president under the chairmanship of shurma there is a working group that tries to explain how the state should respond to various situations and listen to business, that is, there is... the issue of communication, because corruption is not measurable, it cannot be measured by the number of criminal cases or the number of court cases processes. mr. valentin, now in society, we have noticed a very active request for the fight against corruption and how, not only

in this sociological study of kmis, corruption was called the number one problem in ukraine, they even put the burden of the war on their own, including those who were here and remarks about where such money comes from, yes, only that, that is, this is the second point, the question is simply where such money comes from, and here we come to the key point, we are talking about illegal enrichment, correctly, but it turns out that in these prosecutors, judges, deputies, officials of different levels, they get rich, how? legal, you understand, that is, they have to prove that this is illegal enrichment, and they are legal, well, yesterday, she was trading in the bazaar somewhere, i don’t know, there, or maybe she didn’t work anywhere at all, and then her husband became a people’s deputy , and here she discovered

her talent as an entrepreneur, business woman and began to win all the tenders, absolutely legal, well , the system is transparent, the tender is announced, right? well, no one goes to this tender, no one comes forward, and the 23-year-old brother of the mp's assistant comes forward and sells cameras at three times the price, for example, to the national police, on legal grounds, well, it's just that others didn't want to go, and why did others not want to go, you know, because everyone understands that if well, first of all, the requirements can be spelled out that way, which is unrealistic, and secondly, everyone understands that state funds mean that later there will be problems, yes there will be certain difficulties, but this boy is not afraid. because he knows that they have already stolen all the money, everything has been solved, you understand what's the matter, but it's on legal grounds, so what i'm leading to is that we have many people who think that everything is self-evident, but it's not all self-evident, that is, it's a problem, and

there are certain tools that we have to to be used in order to outline the problem first, because a correctly formulated question is already part of the answer, yes, when we say corruption, well corruption... in reality, it is such an ephemeral concept for many and is formed, as my colleague rightly said, by copper tools, to overcome it it is impossible, i say that it can be an exorcism, a conversation with the devil, well, it is some kind of unproductive activity, and in this context, i repeat that we should not look at the number of criminal proceedings there, although this also indirectly gives an idea of ​​​​what is happening , we have to look at the changes that are taking place in the legal framework. and i am inclined to think that recently, well since the 14th year, by the way, well, that is, in fact, we see a huge progress in the formation of the infrastructure that will help, firstly, to minimize the risks of corruption, and secondly, it really gives additional tools to those bodies

that are authorized to fight this phenomenon, because it is necessary to understand that prevention and fight are different things, prevention is to prevent it from occurring situations caused by corruption, and the fight is already bringing to justice those who, strictly speaking, do certain actions anyway, and in this context, i tend to think that recently, well, the current government, by the way, the president we have more, it gives him something certain, yes tools, approves relevant laws on the return to this public access to electronic declarations, lifetime monitoring, of course, and this is far from a complete and not exhaustive list, even. personnel issues, well, look, today there, for example, these bodies work better, because they were created from scratch, you understand, that is, people must come, they must gain experience, they must develop some kind of base, that is, they... compete with the most powerful predators in

this state, well, that is, corruption or what to say, you are usually not the last people there, yes they appear, that is, they also have money for lawyers, they have money for lawyers, but you used the words everyone steals, well, we understand that from the point of view of the criminal code, theft is clearly defined, yes, it is a secret acquisition someone else's property, is robbery, yes, this is open appropriation of someone else's property, is robbery, this is the use, well, violence or the threat of using violence, so when we talk about all these concepts, we must understand that they are clearly defined, in most people all they steal, you understand, everyone steals, well, they steal, it means secretly taking possession of someone else's property, but we understand what they said before, for example, there was such a word in everyday life as, confuse, something, confuse, yes, that is, there are some schemes, these schemes are , there are even legal ones, as i said above, or they are gray, or there are certain loopholes that are not in the law... we saw , by the way, how in america it was shown very well in one movie, when a person was brought to justice for certain actions there in the stock

market, and he said, it's illegal, said no, it was simply not regulated, and then i was hired, well, in order to regulate it, so it is necessary to understand that all these processes, they must be composed, point one, this is really a change of culture, worldview of our perception, what is corrupt activity and what is acceptable, what is unacceptable, and it cannot be... each of us, because it is this joke about the fact that i want there to be no corruption, that i have a godfather-prosecutor who decides everything, this is definitely a joke, but it is not devoid of meaning, well then, it is definitely about certain changes regulatory and legal framework, which would relate to both prevention and direct combat, and the third component is definitely the strengthening of the institutional capacity of those bodies that take care of this, and here again... let's get closer, personnel decide everything, i have already pointed out more than once this example, and now, even recently, this is how the washington post wrote about the successes of the ukrainian special services,

well, in particular, this guru and the sbu, that is, when the kid was appointed, what was the claim that in the ranks of this service there is something very much, or harmful, or unnecessary elements, well, apparently he managed to solve the personnel issue, because we can see the results have changed, yes, if the ministry of internal affairs did the same now... national police, er, naboo, er, prosecutor's office, attorney general's office , a special anti-corruption prosecutor's office, the judicial corps is now doing all this, there are real people sitting there, you see, they have their own, well, interests, and it's not easy to take them and remove them just like that, oleg lisny, a political scientist, is joining us, congratulations mr. olezh, i want to go back to the beginning of this one the conversation, in fact, is quite emotional , and we talked about how the ministry of foreign affairs of ukraine believes that they can use the thesis about the corruption of ukraine, let's say, those who are against our

euro-atlantic, european union aspirations, pro- european aspirations, or against aid , for example, financial and military in the united states, and this thesis really began to be heard more often, let's say how we can counteract this and, let's say, what interests are pursued by those who disperse these theses about total corruption in ukraine, well, everyone , who disperses... in their own interests, if we start, they say, baking from the new prime minister of slovakia, yes, who said that you can't give us money because we will steal it, you know, when, the person who was the previous s his tenure ended due to the fact that he was associated with corruption, and in his tenure , if i'm not mistaken, the european union took away certain funds that he tried to embezzle, so i think you know that, at least it's not unbecoming of his it is heard, but we understand

why this is done, and in our state there are certain uh, let's say this, people who live on grants and they inflate as much as possible, this bubble of corruption, uh, which leads to the fact that such uh, well, let's say this, assessments from the point of view of foreigners there, that in it seems that ukraine has the biggest corruption in the world, well, it is not so, and everyone knows perfectly well, but this information bubble, which is growing, is scattered in the media, and it falls into the eyes of diplomats, and diplomats say, well, if you think so yourself, that you have such corruption, we will also assume, and that is why it is in general, v at some points, this is also a dog of pure water, and of course, where it comes from, you can say in every way the hand of moscow, is it invented or not invented, no, not invented, because they usually find pain points and hurt the whole audience, and in we still have useful idiots, excuse the expression, who can

disperse any traitor. well, from morning to night, because you see, it is believed that now the fight against corruption is in the first place, and then there is the adoption of legislation and the establishment of order in order for us to win the war, which means that the information field bombarded with exactly such messages, and people simply live in it and articulate, of course, our partners, watching all this, as well as being permanently in various elections, we are so unlucky. that ukraine is being talked about everywhere now, where it is necessary and where it is not necessary, soon there will be elections somewhere in nicaragua and there they will talk about ukraine with all due respect to this country, but it is very simple to knock ukraine down and knock down your opponents with the word corruption, because corruption everywhere has a negative connotation, and this is how some of our

characters use speech syllables, then corrupt, in the west, well, corruption is really serious, so... i believe that it is in different situations, or some political-technological steps, and psychological steps, well, it's just a word of mouth radio that spreads treason in us, well, you can't either ignore, mr. gennadiy, can statements like the one made by robert fitso about the total corruption of ukraine have such a strong influence on our western partners in the matter of our integration, because on the other hand, ukraine is implementing reforms on a large scale , who demand their own from us western partners, european partners, in particular we have already mentioned with mr. valentin about the same law about pep, what do you think about this, what is more important for our western partners, what we do or what they say about us, well, it's all interconnected, i think it's the same fizo,

he uses it rather as a greeting and not as a real reason, that is, we can't confirm. that he had anti-ukrainian rhetoric almost throughout his career, but here he opened his eyes and began to feel pain about the way in which a ukrainian official steals the ukrainian people, well, i take everything to heart, so he uses it, like other western politicians, as an excuse to criticize the ukrainian government and criticize his political opponents who professed to help the ukrainian state, the same way the republicans in the united states are doing today, because of course, the issue of corruption... it is really mythologized to a certain extent and mostly, as we said, it works above, accordingly, it is exaggerated in the rhetoric of our individual civic activists, who have monopolized, so to speak, access to the ear of individual western politicians, or actually individual publications, ratings and so on, they are mostly, because it is impossible to measure corruption in any other way than through polls, polls, as valentyn said,

depending on how you ask the question, and what you will get on his answer, because in fact there is a certain myth in ukraine as well, that we are such a rich country, with rich land, resources, and so on, and we are hindered only by someone who, accordingly, steals these resources from us and gives us the opportunity to get rich, i.e. here a thought is sewn into this logic about the fact that it is not necessary to work hard, you just need to remove the bad from power and put the good ones in power and then everything will be fine, but in reality it does not work like that and in the experience, actually the world, it is about the fact that those societies are successful that are generally better organized and, accordingly, can together create a certain national product, because there are a lot of examples when two countries with the same resources, there, for example, even there on the island of haiti, there is the dominican republic flourishing, and there is actually a state called haiti, where a mess has been going on for the past decades, although they