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uah 799, call, every week the saturday political club helps to understand the processes taking place in ukraine and the world. vitaly portnikov, host of espresso and invited experts, based on facts, give their assessment and forecast of the development of events. you want to understand. how our today will affect our tomorrow, see the saturday politics club, every saturday on espresso. greetings, this is svoboda live on radio svoboda. we have already come to the snake itself. the following shots may shock you. news from live event locations. drone attacks, kamikaze. political analytics, objectively and meaningfully. there is no political season, exclusive interviews. reports from the hottest points

of the front. freedom life is frank and unbiased. you draw your own conclusions. dear friends, we are returning to ether and now we will be contacted by valery pekar, a public figure, entrepreneur and teacher at the mogilian business school. we will talk with him about the festival of sustainable peace, which valery peker also presents in particular, people are currently traveling through ukraine, intellectuals tell what it is. mr. valery, we are glad to see you on our air. good day. briefly tell our viewers what it is, the manifesto of the body of peace, when it appeared and what the purpose of this manifesto is to do.

the manifesto was prepared at the beginning of this year, it began with the fact that at the end of last year two dozen ukrainian men and women, diplomats, philosophers, historians, representatives of other professions gathered and understood that in order for the war to end in victory, it is necessary to understand , what such a victory, in order for the war to end in victory, it is necessary that ukraine and its allies have a common vision of victory, and for that it must be described in some document, and then such a document was created, which covers a wide range of military, political, diplomatic, economic, energy, humanitarian problems, it is called, the world after our victory, and it would seem to describe what should happen after we have won, but in fact, it is a necessary component of our victory, because it shows where we are going ,

now we are at some point a, and in order to get to some point b, which we call our victory, we need to describe this point bitko, when the point where we are going is described and agreed with our allies, then it is possible.. . draw a route, such a route is called a strategy, allocate the necessary resources, and move together to that point , the war cannot end until it is clear what the war looks like, which means that it will go on and on if it is not clear how it is complete and it affects this incomprehensibility affects the daily decisions of our allies and partners, regarding the provision of weapons to ukraine in the appropriate quantity and quality, regarding sanctions, regarding diplomatic support and other decisions, indeterminacy, incomprehensibility of where we are going, what we should achieve as a result of ukrainian victory, the uncertainty of the concept of ukrainian victory actually forms such a very protracted character of this war, it affects us extremely

negatively, because for every day of the war ukraine pays too high a price in blood, and this the document was written by 20 ukrainian-ukrainian women and more... hundreds of famous people from ukraine put their signatures under it at the invitation of the co-authors in order to support it, and it was presented more than fifty times in the spring and summer at various important international platforms, at international summits, diplomatic meetings, security conferences, etc., and then we realized already at the end of the summer that he remained almost unknown in ukraine, western politicians know him much better than ukrainian society, and here we actually went... on such a tour, 12 places where we have already visited, where we meet with local leaders, with local business, with student leaders, journalists, public figures, the local analytical community in those cities where it exists,

and we try to show them our finished work and hear, listen to their feedback, their questions, comments and suggestions, that is, in fact, the idea behind the document and behind this tour, the document itself is available online, each of the viewers, the viewer can read it , it is enough to enter the sustainable manifesto in google peace sir, valery, did you present this manifesto of sustainable peace to someone from our government, maybe somehow showed it to our president? of course, from the first day of the document's existence, it got to the table of all the heads of state. and here another question may arise from your side, how does it correlate with the 10 points of president zelenskyi, it correlates very well, the 10 points of president zelenskyi show the point to which we must pass, describe the vision of victory, but how to do it, what

is it for it is necessary to make which prerequisites which strategy, which way, that is, our manifesto, is a broader, deeper and more detailed document that describes both the way to victory and what will happen after victory, so that this state can be considered a victory, and not just a temporary truce before the next wave of russian aggression, but also the key, key idea, one might say, the key motive of the document, which runs through it with a red thread, is the inseparability of peace and justice, we are often told by the western allies that peace and justice are incompatible. if you want peace, forget about justice, forget about penance, compensation, but if you want justice, well, forget about peace, then you will fight endlessly , we categorically disagree with this, we believe that peace and justice are inextricably linked, because peace is without justice means that evil goes unpunished and it quickly returns, has there been

any feedback from the president on your manifesto? we did not receive official feedback, only unofficial feedback from several authoritative high-ranking officials of ukraine who believe that the document outlines the direction of our work quite well from their point of view, but of course there are many details with which you can disagree, and the most important thing is that our allies do not agree with this document today, for them it is too sharp, too uncompromising, and takes them out of the comfort state they're in, hoping that they can quickly restore, somehow, not particularly arming ukraine, and not particularly supporting ukraine to win, to make ukraine not be defeated, but yes, so that russia was not defeated, because the defeat of russia is associated with very

large unacceptable risks for them, which is actually a mistake, and we explain this, including to everyone at every meeting we have, in the cities where we visit, everyone hopes in the west that at some point, putin will die, everything will settle down , russia will become democratized, it will be possible to trade again, remove sanctions, everything will be fine, we are trying to explain that this is impossible, that the world is fundamentally changing. the point of no return has been passed, a return to the state before 2014 is impossible, and this is evidenced now that every time, every day, new and new events in the middle east, in africa, in the baltic sea, in southeast asia, and indicate that the point of no return has been passed and the world is beginning to change in some direction, in which direction it is changing, and will obviously determine those who have... a more calculated long-term strategy, it doesn't look like it's a democratic world today, and

we're trying to counter that, we're trying to explain the trap that's easy to fall into today, hoping for a quick democratization of russia, under the next president of russia, whoever it is by the way, to illustrate your point, today we already talked about it, and interestingly, yesterday there was a vote in the un on the cancellation of the embargo of the united states, regarding cuba, and the results of the vote are very interesting, only two countries voted against, they were the united states and israel, and only one country pressed the yellow button, it was ukraine, all the rest, er, unanimously 180 or so votes voted for the fact that the embargo from cuba should be lifted, for example, is this a signal of a new political reality in the world, i b said that the signal of a new political reality in the world is when russia takes a seat in the un security council, and it, the aggressor state, is guilty of all possible crimes, both

the crime of aggression, which is essentially the father of all crimes, and in war crimes and in the crime of genocide, at the same time vetoes all decisions regarding itself, this absurdity is a signal that the old order does not work, and in addition, it should be noted that russia illegally occupies a place in the organization of the united nations, it is the only country in the world that has never joined the un, not only that occupies an illegal place there, and she also sits in the security council , this is the signal, that is, the signal that everything has changed irreversibly, it was essentially when we realized that all world organizations today show very weak results in establishing peace on the planet and cannot do anything when a serious war begins. concerning. on the practical implementation of this strategy of victory, simply from

the very beginning of the war there were many skeptics in the west who said that sooner or later this war will end up with such a dourty deal, and a dirty, dirty deal, and today there are also voices about this in the senate and in the congress of the united states, for example, the only thing is that now, they are still in the minority, but they are heard more loudly in connection with the fact that that for a year, ukraine was unable to make any serious advances despite the dosed provision of western equipment , that is, what is the alternative to this complex , kilometer by kilometer recapture of the territories that valery zaluzhnyi is talking about, in particular, who is being talked about all over the world, after all, what is the alternative, how can we jump over this one now the problem of the huge russian army, and if you compress a lot... the conclusion of the manifesto of sustainable peace into one short sentence,

it sounds like this: russia must be defeated in this war, and the defeat of russia must lead to a serious political reformation of russia, this is not just changing the president, putin to putin 2:0 chitin, even to some pseudo-lilo who wants to continue the imperial life, russia should suffer a serious defeat, and that's not scary, because that's exactly what it means permanent peace instead of constant threat. the west is afraid of defeat russia cannot allow it. if the west accepts the defeat of russia, provides us with the necessary weapons and applies the necessary sanctions, and organizes the necessary diplomatic support to ensure that russia is defeated, the armed forces of ukraine , properly equipped, will obviously perform better than if this equipment is not in the armed forces. forces, as it

is today, general zaluzhnyi described well what exactly the ukrainian army needs and what exactly... it needs and what exactly today is missing, he did not say why it is missing, but it reads between the lines because it is not provided for fear of defeating russia. if russia, if the allies agreed that without the defeat of russia, the war is endless, the escalation continues, there could be an exchange of nuclear strikes, there could be the beginning of chinese aggression, from southeast asia, there could be russian aggression against nato countries and so on, and so on. if... you want to avoid this, it is necessary to defeat russia, how to do it is described, for this you need appropriate weapons and sanctions support, then with these forces, ukraine wins, together with allies, in russia, as always happens after a war, political changes take place, and this

ensures further stable peace under the conditions described in detail in the document, including. punishment of criminals, compensation for the damage caused, and other important measures that are described in detail there, this is actually a very brief strategy, the main idea, we must convince our allies that the defeat of russia is the only way to the victory of ukraine and to the end of the war, there is no other way. mr. valery, well, but you can't shift the responsibility only to the western allies either. and a lot of us people, after seeing this article by valery zaluzhny, were terribly disappointed and started to get angry with zaluzhny, that he wrote it and that he allegedly did not tell them about the real state of affairs in ukraine, man, i want to know the real state of affairs, at the front , can

follow ukrainian military analysts who monitor and describe it every day in social networks, a person who wants to know the truth, he does not watch a single marathon, sweet water, but watches alternative sources of information and has its own point of view, besides, let's be honest, almost each and every one of us has relatives, friends, colleagues, loved ones who are at ground zero and know very well what is really happening, so no only those who don't want to know don't want to know about how the war is really going this year, and here general zaluchnyi did something that in psychology is called deprivation of ignorance, a person deprived of ignorance is always very angry at the person who deprives him of ignorance , because you can't cover up now with a blanket and say, oh, i didn't know anything, but i didn't tell me anything before, whoever

wants, knows, and the vast majority of those who know, one way or another, work to win, but... or the authorities of the armed forces, or as volunteers, or in one way or another, helping the front, whoever can with all possible forces, and people who tried to hide from the war, to pretend that it does not exist, well, in principle, then you can not read the article of the delusional , to continue, to think that everything is very, very good, i believe that it cannot be in ukraine today place, this effect, to hide from war, because those people... who hide, psychologically hide from war, deny its foundation, they essentially put themselves in a very uncomfortable position, because denying reality is the best way to , to waste your life, you know, i wanted to say that many people call this war actually genocidal on the part of russia against ukraine, because its goal is actually

the disappearance of ukraine, ukrainianness as such, but it is also possible that it works in others. side, because for russia this war can also acquire some existential, let's say, dimensions, because many researchers, and those who agree that this is to some extent a war of identities, say that the russians have a problem with the fact that there is actually no such stable, basic russia , which would have been, so to speak, the embryo of the empire, it is very difficult to determine who is, for example, a russian, since even, well, folklorists say that russian culture is folk, even, it does not reach 200 years. and this means that for russians, imperial identity. is actually basic identity, and in that case, i'm just trying to say that if we ask the question like this, like the complete dismantling of russia as an empire,

it can also mean war, well, with zero sum, what is called, and, that is, it is war, where the russians, where the russians even have an e, this is where the war is all over the poles, as they say, the war is for everything, that is, that is this, it does not give them a choice then either. is it a war to some victorious end where one loses forever? well, not quite so, the war is for, well, first of all , let's start with the fact that war is very often a war with zero sum, that is, in other words, for those who are unfamiliar with such terms among our female viewers, this is a war, one lost, the other won, there is a war with a negative sum, everyone lost, this is exactly the kind of war putin wants, he cannot win, he does not he can achieve the victory of russia, but he can achieve the defeat of russia, the defeat of ukraine, when both countries are in ruins and cannot rise, in principle, he is satisfied with this, but, look, the war of identities, i

slightly disagree with this, it is a war identities for ukraine, for ukraine - this a war for survival, it is a war for the right to assert one's identity, it is a war for independence, for russia it is a war of imperial aggression, which one could easily do without, russia is not so threatened that ukraine is constantly, that the existence of ukraine constantly threatens the existence of the russian empire . russia is not so land-deprived that it is necessary to grab ukrainian lands, because otherwise there will be nowhere to develop. russia is not so sparsely populated that without the abduction of ukrainian children it is possible to say that the russian people are doomed to extinction. there is nothing like that. this is a war between an empire and a nation-state. this is the war of the russian empire with ukraine, a national state, a political nation that includes. representatives, by the way, of very, very different peoples and ethnicities, and here i want to say that all empires die, all empires die, and then countries are created, or before

that, national centers are created, the era of the british empire, the spanish empire , the french empire, the dutch empire, the portuguese empire, the ottoman empire, the austro-hungarian empire, all these empires ceased to exist and national states were organized in their place, the vast majority of these states are wealthy, happy, just and powerful states, and the same thing , maybe, this is, in principle, the end of every empire sooner or later, nothing terrible happened to france, after france ceased to be an empire, and even austria , only better things happened when she let go of her colonies, and so did russia, when she let go of her colonies, everything would be fine there. so for russia, for russia, this is not a war for existence, this is actually a war for so that the empire ceases to exist from our side and they never threaten ukraine

, because it is important to emphasize here that as long as russia is an empire, ukraine is always in danger, it will return again and again, and obviously russia will somehow rethink itself, as all those countries have reinvented themselves , which i have already listed and will not repeat a second time, one way or another russia will be formed one day, but much faster... tatarstan, bashkatostan, the chechen republic, the ingush republic, yakutia sakha, kalmykia and other republics of today's enslaved peoples are being formed, i use the term already established in the ukrainian legislation, the enslaved peoples of russia, this is exactly the situation, and here i want to say that there will be nothing terrible with russia, somehow they will be able to put themselves on their feet better or worse after letting go of the colonies. sooner or later, and so for them it's not a war of tyranny, i would even say a war with the empire, for its

decolonization, it's really a war that can be considered in the category, very strange categories, win-win, it seems to us, that this war cannot be like that, but let's remember that there are people in russia who claim, somewhat paradoxically, russia's victory is russia's defeat, russia's defeat is russia's victory , what does this mean, the defeat of russia's armed forces in ukraine means a chance for the people of the russian federation for a better life, now they live badly and will live even worse. thank you, thank you, mr. valery pekar was with us, public figure, entrepreneur, teacher of the kyivomilean business school, they talked about the concept, vision, manifesto of sustainable peace in post-war ukraine and the world, by the way, yes, well, we are going on a short break and we'll be back stay with us warning. incredible novelty from rozpak tv: super warm and very comfortable alaska style boots, perfect fit, water-repellent material and a feeling of warmth even in 30-degree frost. boots alaska.

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