[000:00:00;00] of ukraine in the eu and nato, that is, when there will be constant, constant signals that we are advancing, advancing, maybe slowly, but advancing, this is one story, it can reduce this anti-western resentment in ukraine as much as possible, and we are already with you they began to talk a little about the mistakes of ukrainian society, yes, which, if something happened, if our...' victory was not like that, not like what we expect, they, they will, they will be pushed out, so i it seems from the minds of people, yes, people do not will think, but we also made mistakes, people will look for someone responsible and guilty for this, yes, and they will also be right, yes to a certain extent, but regarding mistakes, whether you or you think that now it is necessary

to discuss, to talk, analyze and understand the mistakes that we have made, sometimes fatal, suicidal, just mistakes that we have made for 30 years, as a society, as a political class, in general, as a state, or whether now is not the time in your opinion, "to heal these wounds, as people sometimes say, well, on the one hand, now is not the time to heal." any wounds, that is, now is obviously the time to protect each other as much as possible and to be as gentle as possible to each other, simply simply because this is the time, on the other hand, well, these are the same people, that is, you can simply raise the archives, the archives newspapers, look, there is a conventional mirror of the week of 2008, i looked recently, my hair has become thick, i can't believe, it's so hard to believe what a long way we've come, oh i have the same feeling,

so when... old i watch political talk shows, yes newspapers, but when the same people, who, there conditionally speaking, they promoted russian, russian companies in the russian media in ukraine, now they teach how to love one's family, and how to, properly, love, love ukraine, how to be a patriot, well, to be honest, it stresses me out a little, yes itself... how stressful it is when people who worked for the party, which consistently and openly advocated the integration of ukraine into nato, are now once again telling how everyone should go there, men, women, children, and fight, well, too, i think , it's wrong, well, you need to have a little conscience, that's exactly what bothers me all the time, because

about lyubt, well, i remembered that exactly one year ago , our, our public organization mediar, which was created by journalists in 2021 in october, and we addressed, it was such a large collective letter, we addressed the ministry of culture and the president's office with a letter such a collective appeal that tv presenters who worked on medvedchuk's channels should not work... now, well, they have no moral right, yes, really, as you say, to teach, or there, to use all the patriotic there, these clichés and and stamps, and work on state channels, because they work there, let's say, then they worked on freedom or on rada tv channel, and the ministry of culture gave us an answer to this collective letter, they said that these people who

worked on medvedchuk's channels, they are now went over to the side of ukraine, and they are now forging a victory, and we, who were on the side of ukraine, and who turn to the authorities with a letter, we, here, i will quote now, we introduce, we make a gap in the unity and defense of the defense of the state, and you are very good in this text, in your criticism, you write about the demand for justice, in fact, it seems to me that this is a very similar answer to the request for justice, let's talk about whether this request for justice, justice is satisfied, because it seems to us that since such a price has already been paid for that's all, it seems to us that this justice and society expects that justice should still win, and if it doesn't win, well,

it seems to me that this is a bit of a utopia, that we will have a satisfied demand for justice, i what i was preparing for in vain, that we have there's going to be a lot of people who feel that what... that they , that their sacrifices are undervalued, so that their work is undervalued, that their contributions are undervalued, and i don't think we're just going to have the resources to deal with that, here it's not even a question of whether we are capable of it, but here it's even just a question of resources, eh, because, well , in the end, it seems to me that this is another peculiarity of ukrainian society. well, relatively young, that young is dynamic in the good sense of the word, and like every young person, feels his uniqueness underestimated, so do we as a society, every tiny social group

, she believes that she has done the most, that is why the fact that this demand for justice will be unsatisfied, i would still accept as a given and learned, simply about... it is to speak honestly, and it is desirable to start already now to find find this dictionary than than to put out some local fires here and there , please explain what you mean when you say that there is no resource for to defend this justice, what do you mean by the word resource, well, even material resources, yes, that is, i do not imagine, if we speak in terms of justice, i do not think there should be fair compensation for people who, for example, there lost a leg or an arm in the war, the one that has there cannot be fair compensation for people who lost their relatives, who lost their homes, yes,

and all the more so since we understand that we should hardly expect any kind of economic miracle, i.e. that we will not be a fantastically rich country soon. here in fact, my next question is the marshal's plan, is the poor bloodless country, what, what to prepare for after the war, how do you, how do you see, how real are our expectations from this, because we already want a victory, and after this victory of some kind miraculous, as if an economic miracle, or will it happen, what, what can we expect? can't we expect, let's talk not in economic terms, yes, of course, in such purely, purely from the point of view of expectations, well, i think, if

we talk about expectations, then it seems to me this reference to the marshall plan for the second world war is a bit annoying to us, because it assumes that a certain country will become economically successful in a reasonable time, as it was in europe, but it is unlikely that this is the case in our country, yes will be, because anyway, even under the best circumstances , we will have this eastern frontier and it will be threatened all the time, that is, even, even if we imagine the best possible scenario, when russia focuses on its internal problems there, in them is happening there its own internal, some kind of feudal difference, yes, we will still have it. to fly something, we will still have an eastern, eastern border that is dangerous, which means that the eastern regions of ukraine will also be threatened, it means that they will be poorer, and that it will be some kind of militarized zone there, this is what i am saying now about

the best possible fantasy scenario, er , it's obvious that some kind of recovery will happen first of all where there is more security, that is, we have more security in kyiv. we have more security there in the west part, relatively speaking, of the country, and again, this is all very relative, and that is why here, well , it is very difficult to avoid economic issues, but primarily it concerns where people will live, where ukrainians will live, in we can already observe this migration, especially of the economically active population , from the west, and, that is, we, we already understand that we will have a lot of regions that will be, well , depressed, not even because they are threatened from a military point of view, but because

there are simply no young, economically active people there people, and therefore it seems to me that it will first of all be an economically and socially heterogeneous country, if we are talking about some kind of conditional post-war period, as you talk about the fact that we need to be a new israel, this is militarization, and so on the israeli model, which is surrounded by the enemy, and we have to be... well, at least in some such perspective, for several generations , a militarized country that restarted the economy, went on military rails, as you see, how do you treat such , as if there were prospects or something of such a model, well, to me it seems like it's a bit of an exaggeration, to put it mildly, that you can't just superimpose these two situations, i mean the situation.

and the situation in ukraine, first of all, we are too big for this, well, israel , if i am not mistaken, it is somewhere around the chernivtsi region, so behind, in terms of area, and in such a big country like ukraine, i don’t like it very much i imagine, firstly, secondly, we simply do not have the human resources to preserve ourselves as a society, i mean as a nation, if you will, because we have demographic challenges, simply colossal, and being this militarized society, well, well, i am not talking about such a banal thing that we are simply different, er, very, we have very different starting conditions, relatively speaking, in israel, in ukraine, we have very, very

various resources outside, outside the country, and, relatively speaking, outside the mainland, it seems to me that maybe this is an example of someone, someone inspires, but i can’t imagine how to implement it in ukraine, that is, if we, look, if we already see that, those refugees, and this is over there, we are talking now about women and children who ended up outside ukraine, some part of them will most likely not return, but they are already... already adapting and let's be honest, they left for countries where there are also demographic challenges, and these societies are not even against their demographic problems at all, so and so a way to solve, at the expense of culturally close, er, women of reproductive age, who are mostly ready to work, ready to become adam, also became a christmas tree, which

is very important for certain segments of society, and therefore it is for us, we have to make efforts, to be in people and, first of all, our people, first of all there ukrainian women, ukrainians were motivated to return to ukraine, whether such a motivation would be a totally militarized society, well , to be honest, i have my doubts, but still, whether it will be militarized or not . society, but the reality is that it is unlikely that these people, that is, the reality is that these people will not come back, i can't say two-thirds, half or some other, some part, right? what is our answer to, to this, i would say, you call it the possibility of depopulation of territories in general, yes, but it just a real demographic disaster, right? what, what is our response as countries, as societies?

well, we need to understand also that this is not just a demographic catastrophe, it is also a security challenge in the future , because someone has to maintain, after all, our army, someone has to receive our infrastructure, that is, if the depopulated territories are a vacuum, which, which is endangered, and, and in that , that's why it's not... it's not just words, it's a demographic, a demographic problem, it's that there are fewer of us, it means that we are becoming poorer, and it means that we are becoming, we are becoming more threatened, as i recall the study of the center for economic strategies, they recently did a study, actually of our resettlers and our migrants, in particular in germany and in poland, again, if, if i'm not mistaken, in

those who have equally high incomes, those who had their own businesses, good jobs, that is, this is again an economically active population, are ready to return to ukraine, if they have the motivation to continue, for example here yeru, continue here business, then it is obvious that they will return , so it seems to me that there should be some kind of incentive, actually for economically active people, this means that they are not there, they should not have nightmares about some state bodies, tax authorities and all others , and what about you? it gives optimism to think that after the war, and after the war, we will not reproduce the old models, in relation to corrupt judges, in relation to the completely dysfunctional system there, for example, the tax system and so on, so corrupt and so

on, but we will modernize, that is, do you have well well, let's not call it optimism, but some kind of hope. that this will not be reproduced and that somehow we, we are already faced with such a choice, that we will need to change, modernize, we will have no other choice, well, i would not say that i am such an optimist, i see, with text, it is not very clear from the text that the optimists, i think that in some cases, this will happen precisely due to the lack of resources, that is, there will be an abundance of resources. little, that this optimization and modernization, it will be painful, but, but there will simply be nowhere to go, and how very often happens in ukraine, that is, everything, everything at the last moment for yesterday, when it already hurts a lot, and i, i assume that in our country modernization in this way will

continue to happen out of trouble, and you write such a thing, i i quote, because what you write is very close to me, you... it seems that already today we see how those who are ready, in fact have already begun, to parasitize on fears, anger and hurt those who see their realization in a demodernized society, and the price of their political rise will be that those who are them, who it needs the most, will leave the country, what do you mean when you write that, well i mean first of all. these are the conflicts that are already beginning, and, for example, between those who are now in the army and those who are not in the army now, and that is, in fact, the conflict that belongs to this moment of ours , and, because if

you look, relatively speaking, there is a rotation and the next part of society went to the army, huh. it turns out that this conflict is exhausted, and that is, he, he by and large is, is temporary, but at this moment he , he is spinning, and someone, on these emotions, on this swing, on this exhaustion is absolutely clear, someone is making a name for himself on this, uh- eh, because any, any emotional confrontation, there is valid, invalid, there is none, it does not matter, it is a very good ground, for someone who is ready to vividly on, on this topic, you already see it, you already see in individuals, this is how you perceive the absence of a political process, that now, well, we are all in under such conditions that there is no politics, no political process, well, there is a social process, and there is no political one either, do you see

a threat in this, well, on the other hand, i can’t imagine how it can happen now, i can’t imagine either, as if we we proceed from the fact that this is ancient, yes, we do not criticize it, but we are talking about the fact that not always the social process can overcome those political problems, yes, let's say where, something can, yes, and something can't , yes, uh, and, and actually the lack of political competition, what can it lead to, do you not see any threats in this, well, it is obvious that there is a threat to this, but it seems to me that it is so politicized in ukrainian society that even in this, in this state of ours, in these conditions, it manages to conduct political discussions, well , that is, in fact, they are in are happening,

that is, we do not have a normal political process and cannot have one, but it seems to me that society has not forgotten about politics, right? well, it seems to me that we just have to accept the fact that we have a part of society that cannot for example, those who can't be elected, can't vote, and that's it, we just have to accept that it will be like that for a while, the threat of authoritarianism, i don't think that long-term authoritarianism is possible in ukraine. if, of course, it is not occupation, anarchy, yes, some form of this or that, makhnovshchyna, yes, but authority, we, we are simply too different for that, we, we are, we are too different, we have

a lot of different interest groups there, and even one group can have different interests, and therefore i do not really imagine how to practically implement authoritarianism in such a society, well listen, in our country, the vaccination did not go well, not from covid, that is, there are reasons for it, not because we are different, but because, i mean, society is so resistant to it something is not being thrown at something, and what, well, even such a situation would seem rational, how there is a need to be vaccinated, even in this it finds a need, a need to rebel, so what can we say about authoritarianism? we only have about four minutes left, and i want to ask you about what for you personally, can i ask you what you personally would consider a win, i know it's a terribly difficult question, but how

do you, when you think about the future, in general, how, what do you think, well, i for myself i have such a very pragmatic marker, although it sounds romantic, that is, i think that we can talk about the fact that we have a victory, that there is peace in ukraine, when we see civilian planes in the sky. will this be a win for you? well, that would mean she's already done t, so it's, it's like a marker, i think that, it, it's going to to mean some such level of security, because somehow, to imagine, now , what ukrainian victory will be like, it seems to me that this is such a little, a little impractical exercise, we have seen so many of these black swans in our

lives that i think that not you can't imagine it now, and you don't believe in eternal war, ukraine in eternal war? well, then it will not be quite ukraine, or not quite a war? what does it mean? well, this means that it will definitely not be the country that we want, and it will definitely not be the country that we are fighting for now, uh, it seems to me that this will be, that this will be a country that will neither live nor die, so i would not get used to this thought

when you, when you write about that you very carefully sort out what you say in the west and what you say in ukraine , what you say in ukraine, what you don't say in the west and vice versa, well, for example, in ukraine i can once again reprimand people who are there until the 14th year until the 22nd year, they held a pro-russian position there, talk about how destructive their influence was, talk about how low it was nato support, in ukraine, abroad, i usually avoid this, and the very last question, we don't have time anymore, do you have a desire? to say this to people, i remember your post, when the war started, it was the 14th year , it might be a post, or maybe somewhere you

wrote a text, and you said, what do we need it for, i remember very well, it was 10 years ago was and you wrote us this war, that is, for this, for that, for this and for that, you now have a desire to tell your compatriots about all these bars and all these mistakes, well, maybe a little in different intonations, it seems to me that it's just a different level now. diseases, now we need to be more careful, but in principle, i think that we will need this conversation, maybe not now, but we will need it, i think that we do not have the right to simply, you know, announce amnesty to people, which brought us to this moment, thank you, thank you for the conversation, oksana forostina, was my guest, the guest of the program itself. names, we thank you for watching us, we will see you in exactly one week already with a new topic, with a new conversation, stay with

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can strangers be allowed there? yes, during anxiety, you can and should. let people who do not live there into the shelter of the house, because everyone has the right to civil protection, even if the person is not familiar to you, it is everyone's right to be safe. 18:00 in ukraine and bring to your attention a news release on the espresso tv channel. in the studio of iryna koval. greetings to all viewers. they limit and oppress. the security council of the united nations called to protect the faithful of the uoc of the moscow patriarchate. they called the ukrainian reaction inadequate law enforcement officers for conflicts arising