[000:00:00;00] you know somewhere, it is called sweeping the garbage under the keel, it seems to me that these are two very different stories, i am afraid that there will be offense to the west in any case, i have already understood that there are people, groups, who are starting this to promote the topic, it seems very dangerous to me, the question is to what degree it can reach, that is, whether we really... will become, as valery the baker said, a nation of offended winners, or will it still be some marginal currents , it seems to me, now it is all the same, well, for now that this is a marginal such movement, and here, unfortunately, uh, the ball is mostly on the west side, that is, if it happens, there will be intensive, maybe not very fast, but most importantly intensive steps towards

the integration of ukraine into the eu and nato, that is, when there will be constant, constant signals that we are advancing, advancing, perhaps slowly, but advancing, this is one story, it can reduce this anti-western resentment in ukraine as much as possible, and we have already started talking a little about mistakes of ukrainian society, yes, what if something were to happen, if our victory was not as we expected, they , they will, they will be pushed out, it seems to me, from people's minds, yes, people will not think, but we also made mistakes , people will look for someone responsible and to blame for this, yes, and they will be right too, yes to a certain extent, but about the mistakes, do you or do you think that now it is necessary to discuss, speak, analyze and

understand those mistakes that we, sometimes fatal, suicidal, just mistakes that we are have done for 30 years, as a society, as a political class, in general, as a state , in your opinion, is now not the time to open up these wounds, as people sometimes say, well, on the one hand, now is not the time to open up any wounds, that is, now is obviously the time to protect each other as much as possible and to be... how gentler to each other, simply because this is the time, on the other hand, well, these are the same people, that is, you can just raise the archives there , newspaper archives, look at the conditional mirror of the week of 2008 there, i looked recently, my hair stood on end, i did not well, it's so hard to believe what a long way we've come, oh i have the same feeling, so

when i look at the old ones. political talk shows, yes, newspapers, eh, but when the same people who , relatively speaking, promoted russian, russian companies, in russian media in ukraine, are now teaching to love krodina, and how, properly, to love , to love ukraine, as one should be a patriot, well , to be honest, it stresses me out a little, just as it stresses me out when people who worked for the party, which consistently and openly resisted the integration of ukraine into nato, now again they tell how everyone should go there, men, women, children, and fight, well, i also think it's wrong, well, you have to have a little conscience, but that's exactly what makes me sad all the time,

because i love my family, i... remembered that exactly one year ago, our, our public organization mediar, which was created by journalists in 2021 in october, and we appealed, it was such a large collective letter, we appealed to the ministry of culture and the president's office with such a collective letter, an appeal, that tv presenters who worked on the channels medvedchuk, they shouldn’t work now, they don’t have the moral right, so really , how do you say to teach or there, use all the patriotic clichés and clichés there, and work on state channels, because they work there, let’s say, then worked there on freedom or on the tv channel rada, and the ministry of culture gave us an answer to this collective letter, they said that these people who worked on the medvedchuk channels, they

have now gone over to the side of ukraine and they are now forging victory, and we, who were on the side of ukraine, and who are addressing the authorities with a letter, we, here, i would now... quote, we introduce, we make a gap in the unity and defense and defense of the state, and you are very good in this text, in your criticism, you write about the request for justice, this is actually what i think, this is a very so-so response to the request for justice, let's talk about whether this request for justice for justice will be satisfied, because it seems to us that since such a price has already been paid for everything, yes , then it seems to us that this justice, and society expects that justice must still win, and if it does not win, well, it seems to me that this is a little bit of a utopia, that we will have

a satisfying demand for justice, which is what i was unfairly preparing for, that we will have a lot of people who will feel, that they, for example, their sacrifices are underappreciated, that their work is underappreciated, that their contribution is underappreciated, and i don't think we 'll just have the resources to deal with it, here it's not even a question of whether we or we capable, and here it is even a simple question resources, eh, because, in the end, it seems to me that this is another feature of ukrainian society, which is relatively young, and young dynamically, in the good sense of the word, and just as every young person feels his uniqueness is undervalued, so do we as a society, every tiny social group, it believes that it is precisely

it that has done the most, that's why the fact that this demand for justice will not be satisfied, i would still accept it as a given and learned, just honestly about it. to speak a it is desirable to start already now to find, to find this dictionary, than, than to put out some local fires there, please explain what you mean when you say that there is no resource to defend this justice, what do you have mean by the word resource, well even, even material resources, yes, that is, i, i can't imagine, if we're talking in terms of justice, i can't imagine what should... be a fair compensation for people who, for example, there lost a leg or an arm in the war, the one that should be just compensation for people who lost their relatives, who lost their homes, it cannot be, yes, and all the more so since we understand that

we should hardly expect any kind of economic miracle, yes, that is, that there, a fantastically rich country, we let's not in the near future, actually. my next question is the marshal's plan, is the poor bloodless country, what, what to prepare for after the war, how do you , how do you see, how real are our expectations from this, because we want a victory, and after this victory of some such miraculous, economic miracle, or whether it will happen, what , what can we expect, can we expect, let's talk not in economic terms, yes, of course, in such purely, purely from the point of view of expectations, well, i think, if we talk about expectations, then

it seems to me that this reference to the marshall plan for the second world war is a little off-putting and harmful to us, because it assumes that a certain country will become economically successful in a reasonable amount of time, as it was in europe, but it is unlikely in our country yes, it will be so, because anyway, even under the best circumstances, in us there will be this eastern frontier and it will be threatened all the time, that is, even, even if we imagine the best possible scenario, when russia focuses on its internal problems there, they have their own internal feudal differences, yes, it doesn’t matter to us something will come. all the same, we will have a dangerous eastern border, which means that the eastern regions of ukraine will also be under threat, it means that they will be poorer, and that it will be some kind of militarized zone there, that's what i'm talking about now best

fantastic possible scenario. obviously, some kind of recovery will happen primarily where there is more security, that is, we have more security in kyiv, we have more... security there in the western part, relatively speaking, of the country, and again, this everything is relatively very, and that is why here, well, it is very difficult to avoid economic issues, but first of all it concerns where people will live, where ukrainians will live, in our country we can already observe this migration, especially of economically active population, from east to west, yes, that is, we, we already we understand that we will have a lot of regions that will be, well, depressed , not even because they are threatened from a military point of view, but because there are simply no... young economically active people, and so

it seems to me that this will be primarily an economically and socially heterogeneous country, if we are talking about some conditional post-war period , how do you feel about the talk that we need to be a new israel, this is militarization, and this israeli model, which is surrounded by the enemy, and we have to be all our lives, well, at least in some such perspective, so several generations, a militarized country that restarted the economy, went on military rails , how do you see, how do you feel about such prospects or tacos, such a model, well , i think that this is a little exaggeration, to put it mildly, that it is impossible to simply superimpose these two situations, i mean the situation of israel. and the situation of ukraine, first of all, we are too big for this, well

, israel, if i am not mistaken, it is somewhere around the chernivtsi region, so far, in terms of area, and in such a large country as ukraine, i don't really imagine it, firstly , secondly, uh, we just don't have the human resources to uh, and preserve ourselves as a society, i mean as, i as a nation, if you will , well, because we have demographic challenges, simply colossal, and being this militarized society , well, well, i’m not talking about such a banal thing, that we simply have different, very, very different initial conditions, relatively speaking, in in israel, in ukraine, we have very, very different resources outside, outside...' the mainland, it seems to me that

this, perhaps, is an example of someone, someone inspiring, but i can't imagine how to implement it in ukraine, that is, if we, look, if we already see what, those refugees, and this is over there, we are talking now about women and children who ended up outside ukraine, some some of them will most likely not return, but they are already, they are already adapting. and let's be honest, they went to countries where there are also demographic challenges, and these societies are not at all even against their demographic problems, to solve them in this way, at the expense of culturally close women of reproductive age, who mostly ready to work, ready to adapt, also put.

for christmas, which is very important for certain segments of society, and that is why it is for us, we need to make efforts so that people and, first of all, our people, first of all there , ukraine, ukrainians have the motivation to return to ukraine, or such a motivation there will be a totally militarized society, well , to be honest, i have doubts, but still, whether or not there will be a militarized society. but the reality is that it is unlikely that these people, that is, the reality is that these people will not return, i cannot say 2/3, half or some other, some part, yes, what is our answer to, to this , i would say, you call it, the possibility of depopulation of territories in general, yes, but well, it is just real, a demographic catastrophe, yes, what, what is our response as countries, as societies?

- well, we also need to understand that this is not just a demographic catastrophe, it is also a security challenge in the future, uh , because someone has to maintain, after all, our army, someone has to receive our infrastructure, that is, if the depopulated territories are vacuum, which, which are threatened, and in that, that's why it's not, it's not just...' the words are demographic , the demographic problem is that there are fewer of us, this means that we are becoming poorer, and this means that we are becoming more endangered, as far as i can remember. of the center for economic strategies, they recently conducted a study of our displaced persons and our migrants, in particular in germany and in poland, again, if, if i am not mistaken , those

who had equally high incomes, those who had their own businesses, good jobs, that is, this is again an economically active population , if they have the motivation to continue, for example, a career here, to continue doing business here, then it is obvious that they will return, so i think that here there should be some kind of encouragement , specifically for economically active people, this means that they are not there, for example, they should not be nightmared by some state bodies, tax authorities and all others, but what gives you optimism? to think that after the war, and after the war, we will not reproduce the old models, regarding corrupt judges, regarding

absolutely non-working system there, let's say, tax and so on, so corrupt and so on, and we are modernizing, that is, do you have , well, well, let's call it not optimism, but some kind of hope that this will not be reproduced and that somehow we , we are already faced with such a choice that we will need to change, modernize, and we will have no other choice, eh, well, i wouldn't say that i'm exactly that optimistic, i see it that way from the text from the text not really it is clear that there are optimists, i think that in some cases this will happen precisely for due to the lack of resources, that is, resources will be so few that this optimization and modernization will be painful, but, but there will simply be nowhere to go, and, as happens very often in ukraine, that is, everything, everything at the last moment for yesterday, when it hurts a lot, ugh, and i, i assume that in our country modernization in this way will

continue to happen out of trouble, and you write such a thing, i will quote, because it is very close to me, what you write , you say that already... today we see how the contours of theirs are drawn future political careers, those who are ready, in fact, have already begun to parasitize on the fears, anger and pain of those who see their realization in a demodernized society, and the price of their political rise will be that those who are theirs, who are the most important to the country will leave the country need, what do you mean when you write this, well, i mean first of all, these, i mean these... ' conflicts that are already starting, and, for example, between those who, who are now in the army and those who , who is not currently in the army, and, that is, it is actually a conflict that belongs to

at this moment, and because if you look, relatively speaking, there is a rotation and the next part of society went to the army, then that this conflict is exhausted, and, that is, it, by and large, is, is temporary, but at this moment he, he spins, and someone, on these emotions, on this swing , on this exhaustion is completely understandable, someone is making a name for himself on this, uh, because any, any emotional confrontation, there is valid, wrong, it does not matter here, it is a very good ground for someone who ready to speak brightly on this topic, then you already see it, you already see it in individuals, this is how you perceive the absence of a political process, what is it now, well, we are all in such conditions that there is no politics, a political process, well, there is

a social process, yes and there is no political one, do you see a threat in this, eh, well, on the other hand, i can’t imagine how it can happen now, so i can’t imagine either, as if we are proceeding from the fact that it is ancient, yes, we do not criticize this, but we are talking about the fact that, not always the social process can overcome those some political problems, yes, let's say there, something can, yes, and something can't, yes, uh, and , actually , the lack of political competition, what can it lead to, do you not see any threats in this, well, obviously , there is a threat to this, but it seems to me that ukrainian society is so politicized that it is even in this state of ours, in these conditions. manages to conduct political discussions, well, that is, due to the fact that they take place in our country, that is, we do not have

a normal political process and cannot to be, but it seems to me that society has not forgotten about politics, well, it seems to me that we simply have to accept the fact that we have a part of society that cannot, for example, be elected, and that cannot. .. can't vote, and we just have to accept that it will be like this for a while, the threat of authoritarianism? i do not think that long-term authoritarianism is possible in ukraine, unless of course it is an occupation, er, anarchy yes, er, some form of this or that, there are makhnov regimes, yes, but authority... we are just too different for

this, we, we are, we are too different, we have a lot of different interest groups, and even one group can have different interests, and that's why i can't really imagine how to practically implement authoritarianism in such a society, well , listen, in our country, the vaccination against covid did not take place normally , that is, there are reasons there, which, which are not... because we are different, and because, i mean, society is so resistant to it something, something is not thrown, the one that, well, even in such a rational one would seem eh, situations, how to vaccinate there, even in this it finds the need , the need to rebel, so what can we say about authoritarianism, we only have about four minutes left, and i want to ask you about what is for you? personally, can i ask you what you personally would consider a victory, i know it's a terribly difficult question, but how do you, when you think

about the future, in general, how, what do you think, well, i have such very pragmatic, marker, although it sounds romantic, ie, me i think that we can talk about the fact that we have a victory, that there is peace in ukraine, when we see civilian planes in the sky. will this be a win for you? well, this will mean that it has already taken place, that is, this, this is like a marker , i think that this, this will mean some such level, level of security, because in some way, imagine, now, what the ukrainian victory will be, it seems to me , that this is such a slightly, slightly impractical exercise, we have seen so many of these black swans in our lives that

it seems to me that it is impossible not to fantasize now, and you do not believe in eternal war, ukraine in eternal war, uh, well, then it will not be quite ukraine, or not quite a war , what is it, well, this means that it will definitely not be the country that we want, and it will definitely not be the country for which we are fighting now, er, it seems to me that this will be, that this will be a country that will neither live nor die, therefore... i would not get used to this thought.

when you, when you write about the fact that you very carefully sort out what you say in the west and what you say in ukraine, what you say in ukraine, what you don't say in the west and vice versa? well, for example, in ukraine, i can once again reproach the people who took a pro-russian position there until the 14th year until... the 22nd year, talk about how destructive their influence was, talk about how low there was nato support, in ukraine, abroad i usually avoid this, and the very last question, we don’t have time anymore, you have a desire to say: this is to the people, i remember your post when the war started, it was the 14th year, maybe it's a post, or maybe you

wrote the text somewhere, you said, why do we need it, i really like it i remember, it was 10 years ago and you... the bars and all these mistakes, well, maybe a little in different intonations, it seems to me that just now there is a different level of illness, now we need to be more careful, but in principle, i think that we all this conversation will be needed, maybe not now, but we will need it, i think that we don't... we have the right, you know, to announce amnesty to the people who brought us to this moment. thank you, thank you for the conversation, oksana forostina, she was my guest, the guest of the own names program, we thank you for you watched us, we will see each other exactly in a week already with a new topic, with a new conversation,

stay with espresso. there is a war going on, and not only for territories, it is also a war for minds, we are engaged in propaganda, russia is throwing millions of oil dollars to turn ukrainians into little russians. ukraine will become let's counter the information attacks of the russians in the chronicles of information war project, with olga len. on monday, tuesday. thursday at 17:15 on espresso tv channel. hello, this is svoboda ranok, an informational project of radio svoboda. top guests every day, that

ship district, kherson. turn on live. we are somewhere in the vicinity of bakhmut. we tell the main thing. on weekdays at 9:00. verdict by serhiy rudenko, from now on in a new two-hour format, even more analytics, even more important topics, even more top guests, foreign experts, inclusion from abroad, about ukraine, the world, the front, society, and also feedback. you can express your opinion on the bad day with a phone survey. turn on and turn on. dictation with serhiy rudenko, every weekday from 20 to 22 at espresso. channel espresso and ukrainian pen present the project of their own names with myroslava barchuk. a series of conversations with ukrainian and western intellectuals who analyze and comment on the most relevant social debates. we will

find out exactly what news the guests of the project will analyze this week and who will be the guest of the studio this sunday. undoubtedly, the topics will be relevant. guests with special names with myroslava barchuk sunday 17:10 at espresso. hello, my name is david sutter. i worked as a correspondent for many years years during the soviet union. and after the union broke up, i described the events. in ukraine and russia, i want to convey my warmest congratulations to the espresso tv channel, because, since 2013, you have been doing a truly incredible job, explaining the events taking place in ukraine to ukrainians and the whole world. i wish you to remain steadfast in all your endeavors,

i am sure that you will succeed. greetings, we already talked about the fact that the continuation of the war is the kind of thing that keeps putin and the kremlin together in general, near the power, that is, this is the main thing that they can give to the russian people. and most importantly, what generally allows them to hold power within the existing parameters, because they cannot, in principle, fulfill any other social, any, monetary, any other requests of society, and here is what is interesting, in connection with with this, russian propaganda has also been somewhat reformatted, that is, no one