er, the directors tell me that everything , well, come , we will have three people's deputies, we are waiting for you, what is the price of the european choice, we will talk about it today on the air of bbc ukraine, olga palomaryuk works in the studio. the first steps towards rapprochement with the european union and first blood november 21, 2003 ukraine has chosen a course to the west, will dreams of a european future become reality? 10 years later, in the place where the revolution of dignity began, we are talking about how ukraine has come closer to europe. 10 years ago ukrainians came to the square to defend their european choice.

someone longed for europe and democracy, someone wanted to finally sever all ties with autocratic russia, and someone simply wanted to replace one president with another, and to understand where ukraine was then and where it is now, what was achieved, why the ukrainian maidan in everything the world is called a phenomenon? it is worth remembering how it all began: november 21, 2013. mykola azarov's government announced that ukraine will not sign an association agreement with union, on the same day the first protests begin in kyiv and later this date will be considered the beginning of euromaidan. the number of protesters increased, mostly students, on the night of november 30 , fighters of the berkut special unit dispersed them, more than 130 people were injured. the very next day, according to various estimates , about a million people took to the streets of kyiv. the march of millions, as it was called, resulted in the famous bulldozer... an assault on a bank and another

beating of activists. every day the maidan grew from one tent in the center of kyiv, he cut into a full-fledged state within a state, there were its own orders and its own rules. well, in general, yemromaidan lasted 3 months. the confrontations ended in a bloody massacre on february 18-20, 2014. then in the center of kyiv, berkut special forces, their other law enforcement officers and uncles killed close to one. fifty protesters. in general, the number of victims reached more than 100 people. dozens of lawsuits on maidan cases are still pending in ukrainian courts. however, despite everything, the revolution won. president viktor yanukovych fled to russia, and now, more than ever, ukraine is closer to the then goal of becoming a part of the european commonwealth. well, we will talk about the price of the european dream today too, but for now, as i addressed the ukrainians. today, president

volodymyr zelenskyi. year after year, step by step, we do everything to be in the circle of stars on the eu flag, which symbolizes unity. the unity of the peoples of europe shone and our star, the star of ukraine. and we do all this despite the war. when our people protect themselves and europe already now, because we have dignity and we will not allow it to be taken away we have freedom. well, as the events of the revolution of dignity are evaluated today, the vast majority consider them decisive for the formation of civil society and european integration in ukraine, and here are some opinions collected by western journalists today. the first battle of the russian-ukrainian war took place here, in kyiv in 2014, on the maidan of dignity, as we were then, as they managed to wipe us out then, ukraine would no longer exist, there would be, er, this project, a version

of belarus, number two, that is, belarusian, there would be yanukovych, the president, this one, a protege putin, and uh, all patriots would begin to be purged, the fsb of russia would enter our offices of the authorities in all regions and so on , this is how the annexation of ukraine would take place, for me this is the most important day, well, when it comes to ukrainians, it seemed simple to me then. ..' ukrainians understood that we are not some kind of bad lot who can beat our children, can decide everything for us, and i met the best people in the world here, well, during this decade, ukraine and ukrainians have changed, many of the active participants of the protest left into politics, someone is currently on front, the maidanites became the driving force of the new ukrainian army, and the course towards european integration remains unchanged, ukraine continues to move towards europe, and how the changes are seen in

the west, and this is what the bbc correspondent james waterhouse told the world audience about. he works in kyiv. 10 years ago, in 2013, people came out with protests against the decision of the last pro-moscow president, viktor yanukovych, to abandon the association agreement with the european union, instead, after secret negotiations, conclude a similar agreement with russian president putin. performances did not stop for three months. at the peak, they turned into blood. more than 100 people lost their lives. but in the end, the protesters won in the sense that yanukovych was removed from power. but this was followed by russia's merciless response, the decision to start a campaign of aggression that has not stopped for the 10th year. as a result, crimea was annexed, russian troops entered the occupied territories in the east of the country, and a full-scale invasion began in 2022.

ukraine is still fighting for its own independence, but it still exists, and a vote on potential membership talks is scheduled for next month. of ukraine in the eu. this is an extraordinary decade for the country, and today is an opportunity to remember how it all began. this coincided with the visits to kyiv of the main allies of ukraine, in particular the minister of defense of germany, boris pistorius. the partners emphasize again: we are with you as long as necessary. new military aid package announced, including additional supply of badly needed ammunition ukraine. the president also arrived here. charles michel of the european council, who once again emphasized that the future of ukraine lies in the european union. before that , us defense secretary lloyd austin and the new british foreign minister cameron visited here. they all repeated the message, you and i. president zelski has to maneuver,

taking into account political realities, namely skepticism about aid to kyiv and the upcoming elections. but now ukraine welcomes these signals and tries to keep the world's attention on the war in ukraine. actually, about signals, on the 10th anniversary a whole delegation of high-ranking guests arrived in kyiv on euromaid. the president of moldova, maia sandu, together with president zelski and the first lady, honored the memory of those who died during the revolution of dignity. the president of the european council, charles michel, and the minister of defense of germany, boris pistorius, also arrived in kyiv today. the german minister at a joint briefing with the minister of defense of ukraine. stemom umierov reported on a new package of military aid, its total cost is 1 billion 300 million euros, it will include, among other things, four anti-aircraft systems defense officer

well, about the events of then and today, let's talk together with my colleague, zhanna bespiachuk, joining from kyiv, zhanna, you are now in the exact place where everything started 10 years ago, what are your feelings and reflections, this is the path to european integration . 10 years long, and this is not the end, because what ukrainians fought for then has already been implemented today. eh, yes , kolya, congratulations, really, i remember those first days, the revolution of dignity, here on the maidan, i came here as a journalist, observed , i remember that sometimes it was cloudy and sometimes like a little rain, and it was good to have an umbrella with you, not everyone had them. who was hiding from that fog, and today i thought that 10 years have passed, and now ukrainians have to hide from russian drone missiles, in shelters, bomb shelters, ukrainian children study in schools where the presence of a bomb shelter or shelter is a mandatory condition

, that's if very, very briefly and very simply to describe the path we have traveled during this time, but at the same time , ukraine, as a state and civil society, has not given up on this path, and this is already a great uniqueness and the power of this choice, because in the conditions of armed aggression, a full-scale invasion of russia, to preserve this consistency in the civilizational choice, the choice of european integration, precisely as a path of development, is extremely difficult, and for this the ukrainian nation is paying a very high price today, it is human life and security of the entire country. at the same time, if we turn to such a fairly objective source as sociology to explain what path the ukrainian nation has taken, here in these 10 years, from the first day on the maidan, the day when people remained here

spend the night near the monument of independence, and this is also where everything started , i.e. there was a sense of determination that there was no way back, from that moment to today, then, ukraine's entry into nado, for example, will support... about 48% of ukrainians, today joining the north atlantic alliance is supported by about 90 % of ukrainians, and this level of support has equaled the level of support, the eu, for joining the european union, what does this mean in practice, that in fact during this time, during these 10 years, ukraine as a state, as a civil society and ukrainian in general the nation has already decided its choice very clearly, and this also has great potential, when the absolute majority of people have no doubts about how to move, how to further develop, despite all the colossal tragedies that ukraine is experiencing.

and is experiencing on this path, a very unique path to the european union and in general to europe, european integration, well, 10 years in order to achieve the status of a candidate for accession to the european union in the conditions of russian armed aggression, how far these paces of european integration correspond to the hopes of ukrainian society? ugh, again, continuing the thesis about the uniqueness of the path, what can we say that if we take the examples of other countries of central and eastern europe, in particular the baltic countries, which together with ukraine were part of the ussr, in them the path of european integration took approximately 10 years , but this is the path from submitting an application for joining the european union, to actually joining, acquiring full membership in the eu, in ukraine for 10 years, this is the path from the revolution of dignity, the struggle to be signed. the association agreement, which, by the way, has already been implemented today, and to that

to become a candidate for accession to the eu, it has been almost 10 years, and within these 10 years , the war that began on ukrainian soil back in 2014, immediately after the euromaidan and the revolution of dignity, and the annexation of crimea began back in february 2014 , i.e. 10 years, but these 10 years are different in content, in terms of the scale of tests for ukraine than for other countries , and further, what is happening today, we actually, that is, ukraine, the ukrainian nation, today one step away, before the start of negotiations, already the opening negotiations on the accession of ukraine to of the european union, there are such expectations that this decision can probably be adopted by the european council of the eu in december, and then official negotiations will begin, and it may still be 5-7 years, for sure no one

can now predict exactly how many years it will take , because the european union must also carry out an internal reform of its institutions in order to prepare for expansion at the expense of ukraine and moldova, in particular these countries, so for now this future is again unknown, i think that for ukrainians, in principle, already after of all those tests, not how many years european integration took before that, but how many years it will take to join the eu, and there is a very high hope that it will not be 10 years, but less, dear, well, we see, today, high-ranking guests in kyiv, including the joint press conference of charles michel, have the honor of volodymyr zelenskyi about the progress of ukraine and moldova on the way to the eu, but when do you think it will be possible to say that the revolution of dignity won? i think that this answer,

it is quite obvious, is ukrainian nation, that is, it is a fair end to the war, so much for peace and accession to the european union , and also receives an official invitation to at least nato. zhanna, thank you, from kyiv, where the euromaidan began, my colleague zhanna bespiachuk, and i also advise you to read the article of colleagues with memories of this day 10 years ago on our website, 10 years of the maidan, hope without a statute of limitations, the title of oleg's article chernesha, there he analyzes changes in society, for this 10 litiya and writes that for many participants of those events, the revolution of dignity is not an event, but a process. well, that's all

today, look for more stories on our website bbc.ua, on our pages in social networks, and we will be on the air again, tomorrow at 9 p.m., take care. greetings friends, the live broadcast continues. tv channel and the verdict continues, today we work with you in a two-hour format and talk about ukraine, about the war, about the world, about victory, about what interests you, our dear tv viewers, today in the program. the next requirement on the way to the eu is to increase the staff of the nabu. what changes

should be expected in the future? how much more will you steal like bribery and corrupt get rich during the war, and why, 10 years after the revolution of dignity, officials are behaving unworthily. equating corruption to the state council, why zelskyi has not yet introduced the announced draft law to the council. today , ukraine celebrates the day of dignity and freedom. we welcome all ours. viewers on this day, but on this very day three people's deputies were suspected of corruption, in an attempt to bribe officials, we will talk about all this for the next hour, and before starting our conversation, i would like to remind you that we will continue today's p.m.

we ask you, dear viewers, whether corruption in ukraine should be equated with treason? yes, no, please vote on our youtube and facebook platforms, and you can also vote on the phone lines, which if you are watching our telecast now, you can call 0800-211-381 and support this idea, that is, rooting out corruption , corruption to treason no 0-800 211-382, all calls are free for you, at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote, i want to introduce today's guests, so today we have andrii osatchuk, people 's deputy of ukraine, golas faction, mr. andrii, i congratulate you and thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening sergey, good evening, audience. oleg synyutka, people's deputy of ukraine, european solidarity faction. mr. oleg, i congratulate you and thank

you for being with us today. good evening, greetings to viewers of espresso. oleksiy kucherenko, people's deputy. ukraine fraction fatherland. mr. oleksiy, i congratulate you and thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening, glad to be with you. as gentlemen, we are asking our viewers whether they believe that corruption should be equated with treason. let me remind you that this is actually volodymyr zelenskyi's idea, he promised to submit the bill to the verkhovna rada of ukraine in order to strengthen the fight against corruption. i 'm going to ask you in a flash poll format what you think about it, whether. should corruption and acts of corruption be equated with treason, or is it possible to introduce a new comparison there with looting during the war and strengthen it further more, give some terms for corrupt acts, mr. oleksiy, let's start with you , well, thank you, i'll be frank, of course, to please the audience now, then i probably have

to say, yes, treason, the gallows there, the execution on the spot. and so on, it is clear that society expects and so on, but it seems to me that we already have a sufficiently strict anti-corruption legislation in theory, we just need to understand why it is not working, we are creating new anti-corruption bodies, we are increasing the number of nabu, special courts and so on and the like, somehow they're not going anywhere, although there, the punishment is strong enough, so i don't mind if... it was treason, god help it. thank you, mr. andrii, in your opinion, whether it is necessary to increase the responsibility for corrupt acts, or whether the anti-corruption legislation that has been adopted is sufficient to fight corruption, it is simply a matter of law enforcement. let me come from trumps to make our broadcast more fun for our viewers, you

know, we all have to be very responsible for the tone and the meaning of the messages that we gives out into society, and now i sincerely think that with all my love for espresso, you are pouring water on the populist mire of the office of the president, because this whole idea of ​​treason appeared somewhere there two or three months ago, and believe me, it is purely a reaction to the inability to build an effective system of state power, effective institutions, accountability, controllability, the procedure for appointment to positions to be done normally, and as a result, everything returns to the populist hype that we heard during the election campaign in the 19th year, remember, spring will come, we will plant, in general, the idea that punishment will solve the problem is absurd, i remind everyone for the fifth year that the relevant law is called the law on the prevention of corruption, between the word fight against corruption and

prevention of corruption, in general, there is a pitfall, unfortunately, it is difficult to explain to people, just as it is very difficult to explain to people, and what is corruption in general, everyone believes that corruption is a bribe, you improved a little there, when the question was asked, there are acts of corruption , well these are dozens and dozens of manifestations of these things, as colleague oleksii correctly said, we have very severe punishments, dear friends, a public servant, if you are caught, give what is easiest in the form of a bribe, in particularly large amounts, which are actually there insignificant, the punishment starts from five years , it only starts, you can get ten easily, it is little, it is a lot, therefore we need to completely change the logic of communication, we need to fight for an effective state system. and when we continue to chase after corruptors and create hype around it, well, we have been doing this for the 10th year already, and the results are in front of everyone's eyes.

mr. oleg, what do you say about zelenskyi's initiative, because the survey itself came from zelenskyi, why am i asking, because where there is monopolies, there is monocorruption, i guess it should be said that way, i will honestly tell you that i... a little i am surprised by the position of my colleagues, because i have great respect for both mr. oleksiy and mr. andrii, but perhaps today's searches of the people's deputies had such an effect, but i believe that corruption is , especially during the war, treason, because when they steal money that should go to the army and not only when they steal money, when they make decisions that do not benefit the army. and the armed forces, so what? this is treason. i will honestly tell you that the majority of those who are engaged in corruption today have moscow roots in one way or another

, and this is obvious, because with their acts of corruption and theft, they are greasing the mill of moscow aggression, i don't have any here there is no doubt that with regard to president zelskyi's proposal for a draft law, in fact, we all understand very well, especially colleagues, people's deputies, that it was not about the fight against corruption, but about the possibility of prosecution, which today belongs to to anti-corruption bodies, to hand over to controlled law enforcement structures that are very easily coordinated from the president's office, and when it came to this draft law, there is no doubt that during the period of martial law, especially , it should be equated to treason and let this is done by anti-corruption bodies that have levers, that have the appropriate capabilities and influence, and it is by no means necessary to create

such a, you know, police system, which everyone disagrees with, those who think differently, who have a different civic position, well, simply take and control through law enforcement agencies, which will be pocket, or is pocket, that is. then in essence i believe that this decision must be made, and this decision must be made as soon as possible, but the essence of this decision should not be to give greater opportunities for controlled law enforcement agencies, the essence of this decision should be to eradicate, if you want to put in place and warn all those who today want to steal money, to make decisions not in favor of the ukrainian state and its citizens. you mentioned, mr. oleg, about this story with three people's deputies, today, i will remind you that, nabu, called, transferred

the case of serhii labazyuk to the anti-corruption prosecutor's office, this is a people's deputy from the group for the future, and he was caught handing over a bribe, i.e. he asked to receive from the ministry restoration, suborders. from the reconstruction of infrastructural objects for 1 billion uah and as a result of receipt of 50 million uah per subcontract for the restoration of a destroyed bridge in one of the regions of ukraine , an interest in the amount of 150,000 dollars was transferred to mustafa nayem through a trustee. in addition, nabu was informed of the suspicion of the people's deputy from the servant of the people faction , andriy odarchenko, who tried to bribe again with rent. and well, today is the hiring day just in the supreme council, in nabu, today, you know, yes, this is so surprising, now i think, we will discuss, yes, well, in principle, all bribes

went to the recovery agency or then to the ministry of infrastructure, where nayem was the deputy minister, well, today is the day of dignity and freedom, we remember that euromaidan was just starting with mustafa nayem, who wrote a post and said come for coffee in the evening of the 21st , november 2013, what are these stories , why did they all explode on one day, although there we are talking about different periods when bribes were offered, when these bribes were received, and all of them, in principle, concern only the ministry of reconstruction , agency for the restoration of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, may i i'll try, because i really, i 've been thinking about this situation all day today, it's quite spicy and it's not trivial. mr. serhiy, and colleagues, did you pay attention that this is the first time, apparently, yes, we say, i am not the lawyer

of these deputies, if they violated it , they should definitely be punished, there is no doubt here, and i have no sympathies are absolutely for them, and you see, this is the first thing we consider when a deputy is accused of not taking, yes, for something, we saw how one deputy was taken there for helping to cross the border, yes, or there for another, to solve some issue, and here the deputies give, you understand, they transfer money for something and to one address, you see, well , it’s a non-trivial situation, well, i don’t know about this, in abazyuk personally, well, the guy was elected three times by the majority, it means that he has done a lot for the district, because there is no other way, you understand, three times in a row, this is a serious result, that is, what i am leading to, i have a slightly different hypothesis, what is the hiring agency, this is the former ukraftodor, it was simply renamed a year ago under the agency. there

restoration and so on, well, the structures of avtodor, what they did, we all know , yes, roughly, yes, big construction, big theft, roads were built, but with what kickbacks the legends went about 50%, and now look, one deputy rector he wants his building, his university, to be renovated, yes, and for that he is trying to thank him for something, another dep wants the city... to be renovated for him in the district and also hands over some money, the third one seems to be the same, then they are definitely guilty if they really have money way they want to solve the problems, but i am asking a logical question , don't you get the impression that right there in that agency, well , they somehow created such conditions there that without such a gift, the issue might not have been resolved,

you know, i am like that. i put a question mark, and now the second: in recent months, there have been many complaints against mr. nayem, and i personally, that his agency failed in the construction of the shelter program for energy facilities of critical infrastructure, these are obvious things, they are well known to me, i know what the accounting chamber works there and so on , and i have the impression that this is an operation to remove the blame... vision, you see, it turns out that we have, i don't want to, i'm not nayem's lawyer, he did a lot there for 10 years therefore, probably, but the fact that the institution called the recovery agency is no different from other managers of budget funds, i personally have no doubts, i do not believe in these fables and fairy tales, you understand, if there is total corruption in the country, and we understand it , then in

essence... any budget manager of funds, that is, the ministry, agency, inspection, turns into a tool of this money laundering, this is my hypothesis. thank you, mr. andriy, what do you have to say about this situation, because it so happened that on this day that we are meeting on the air, three people's deputies and all of them carried money, carried, did not take, but carried, you understand, but worn, so worn. for and thanked, does this mean that there is a certain system in the state, because if people's deputies decide the issue and carry, as entrepreneurs say, meatballs to one agency, then well the question then arises, what is generally happening in other ministries that are administrators of the states.