[000:00:00;00] i don't believe these fables and fairy tales, you see, if there is total corruption in the country , and we understand it, then basically any manager of budget funds, that is, a ministry, agency, inspection, turns into an instrument of this money laundering, this is my hypothesis , thank you, mr. andrii, what do you have to say about this situation , because it so happened that on this day that we are meeting on the air, three people's deputies and all of them carried money, carried, did not take, but carried, but, carried, yes, carried for and thanked, does this mean that the state has the system is somewhat certain, because if people's deputies decide the issue and carry, as entrepreneurs say, the meatballs to one agency, then the question arises, what is actually happening in other ministries that are

managers of funds, well, look, let's try to look a little deeper into this to look at everything a little more seriously and without hyping as much as possible, the fact that the law enforcement and anti-corruption infrastructure demonstrate efficiency, of course that is good, no one will argue, we created them, or rather the preliminary convocation of the parliament, and we are there we've been stepping it up in every way, we're giving them a lot of money, everything is supposed to be fine, but you know, i really, really don't like what happened today. today is the anniversary of the maidan, well, we have all quite grown-up guys gathered on the air, we remember all the joys of the soviet system and we remember this soviet tradition to do something there before major holidays, to do some feats, to fly into space there, i don’t know, 1,000 tons of coal are cut there by the october anniversary and so on, but here on one

day, on the anniversary of the maidan, when she came to us a bunch of guests, when the topic of ukrainian corruption was raised again in the last six months, and this is a slightly different discussion, the ukrainian authorities say: oh, look, one, two, three, we work, i just know a little how law enforcement agencies work, and you know , well, this coincidence is very strange, that in one day we have three procedural actions for each of the people's deputies, that is, once again, i, like my colleague kucherenko, am neither a lawyer at all, nor do i even really know these colleagues of ours, because i i still don't know everyone by ear face, but it looks weird. secondly, what my colleague says that they gave there, you see, it’s not the same, probably how it was there , i don’t know, 5-10 or 15 years ago, when the mayor came from some overcrowded town there, walked around kyiv in the ministries, he gave money to have it repaired, everyone here wants

a contract to be concluded. with a specific contractor that can be controlled, and now there are already a lot of questions about this so-called restoration agency, there are already journalistic investigations, because we still have journalists a more effective and operational source of such information, bigus did a good job digging around the kyiv region, so these are not unfortunate deputies who came to ask for their university or something else, it is most likely just a desire to conclude a contract with a specific contractor for a certain amount , and there is already something to be done with this contract, and the last thing i will tell you, with all my respect for mustafa, we are a little familiar with him there, but he is now a public servant who is in the zone of increased corruption risk, i just i want to remind you that the supreme soviet once applauded when we appointed sinichechenko as the head of the state property fund, and he twice

heroically surrendered the people who were given to him . do you remember that was the case with the odesa proport plant and the whole public almost made him a hero, now he is dead hiding somewhere, because it turns out that not everything was so good, that is, we now see a very ineffective work of the recovery agency, there are a lot of problems, i end with what i now remember, last summer, i had a very long conversation with a group of large friends of ukraine and the united states, and then i am talking about... a very simple narrative, if we want to rebuild ukraine qualitatively, unfortunately, the system of power and the management system is so inefficient that money should not be put into the hands of ukrainian bureaucrats, simply not into the hands of to give, create foreign funds, create foreign companies, give them some assignments , plans, let them carry out purchases themselves, let them implement projects themselves, and this is probably the only option in the near future, how we

can secure the money of our... allies, but i would like to remind you that for reconstruction, it is not our taxes, it is the money of taxpayers in america and europe, so we are obliged to protect them, so i think, on the one hand , we will implement the instruments of parliamentary control as much as possible, on the other hand , i do not believe in the possibility of saving this money as long as ukrainian officials have access to it. mr. olezh, please tell me, despite everything that is said about this and this is some kind of coincidence, on the day of dignity and freedom, with three people's deputies, the level of corruption is still quite high, was and remains in ukraine in spite of everything, can we say, i slandered that monovada, monocorruption, can we say that, eat, the power that is in one hand, it needs a lot of responsibility, that is, if you take all the power, then you have

to be responsible, including for everything that is happening, for the corruption flows, for those who are caught and sent to sizo, that is, leaders, great power requires great responsibility, those who hold this power, can we say that the concentration of power in one hand speaks of the concentration of large funds that are in the state, also in the same hands, that go in envelopes there with these meatballs, well, first of all , the inevitability of punishment, it is one of the basic principles, and it is very important that any crime sooner or later receives punishment for of the person who committed this crime, and what you are talking about about the monopoly power that has been formed in the ukrainian state today, it definitely does not ensure the inevitability of punishment, because monopoly power is a temptation, and sooner or later this temptation

will defeat that official , whatever maybe his path to the position he gets was not paved with honest intentions, so i want to convince once again that monopolies are a step towards... and any authoritarianism is associated with crimes, including corruption crimes secondly, i would very much like, and it resonated with me, so that we do not heroize mustafa nayem here now, as a person who almost started a revolution of dignity, because i am convinced that those young people who came to the independence square in order to... defend the european choice, convinced by the majority of they did not even suspect the existence of such a mr. mustafa nayem, although it is very correct that he came together with others, with many, to defend ukrainian

statehood and our exit from europe. thirdly, i believe that the problem here is really, not even in grand theft and not in the tradition of grand theft, which unfortunately did not stop... even during full-scale aggression, here the question today is the return of concentration of financial resources in the higher echelons of power , that step by step with great efforts, including thanks to to mr. oleksiy, as a people's deputy of ukraine, the previous convocation was broken in order to implement decentralization in the country , to distribute funds, to transfer responsibility and the possibility of decision-making to different levels of government, today it is being pulled up again, and the concentration of power, the concentration of financial resources, it definitely entails corruption, we are returning step by step, unfortunately, to the system that

existed under yanukovych, when all financial resources and whether you want it or not, a small official, using completely different levers, including kickbacks and bribes, was forced to go to large offices and there somehow agree that part of the funds would go to the territory of his village or to the territory of his electoral district, and this system is returning, that is, the fact that funds from local budgets are taken away under very supposedly good intentions is another example of the formation of such a centralized system of financial resource management, which goes hand in hand with corruption, which leads to corruption, because officials with temptation will still appear, messengers will still appear who will carry this temptation to the highest offices of the government, and what we saw

today will happen, or is it a coincidence that the detention or handing over of suspicion to the people's deputies happened today, well, for sure it is not by chance, fellow people's deputies, you probably know something that is not known to the general public, but you know , such a rather funny incident happened today, but i would not like to be in the place of the people's deputy who was beaten in the morning. and then it turned out that they did not come to him, but simply made a mistake in the address or made a mistake in the name, i can imagine the state of this people's deputy, to whom the machine gunners come, the nabu employees come accordingly, present the document, and then it turns out that they simply made a mistake in the address or made a mistake in the name, that is, exactly what happened today is not it happened by chance today, or is it correct that it happened on the day... when ukrainians celebrate

the day of dignity and freedom, well, this is a very controversial issue, i am convinced that corruption must be fought, regardless of what day it is day, whether today is monday, whether today is friday, whether today is a holiday, or today is not a holiday, but i am convinced that today it carried a certain symbolism, because besides the fact that 10 years ago ukrainians came out for the protection of our european values , our euro-atlantic choice. even today, we still have a demand, and i am convinced that it is our conscious choice, to adopt all those regulatory and legislative acts that will pave the way for the decision of the european council to start negotiations on ukraine's accession to the european union, and among these demands we we understand very well that the lion's share is precisely the fight against corruption, today the parliament voted for the expansion of naboo

, today the parliament voted for changes in the specialized anti-corruption prosecutor's office, that is, all these things are actually connected with each other, quite symbolic, and i would very much like , so that when we make a decision, we first of all, well, do not reduce everything to some memorable dates, everything as in the soviet union once was, that let's win by some anniversary of the great october, so that we understand that the cause of all those troubles, which today are happening with corruption, this is primarily the concentration of power, this is the narrowing of financial flows to a few offices of the highest officials located in kyiv, and so that we understand that a corrupt country will definitely never enter the european union or nato, but without membership in the european union and nato, there is absolutely no need to talk about the completion of the victory of the revolution of dignity. well, here i am, allow me 20 seconds

, yes, please, mr. andrii, let’s go, i just think it’s important, several times both you and your colleague used the conjunction is the concentration of power, and you somehow linked it to the concentration of flows, i think that this is not important, for the fifth year of zelenskyi's presidency and the existence of a monocoalition, the concentration of power leads exclusively to the concentration of responsibility, remember how it was, the first second a year of their work, what they did, they usually pointed a finger at their predecessors, the old management tradition, it is a village like this world, it is not ukrainian, it is global, if you like, but the same thing was constantly repeated, there was poroshenko, yatsenyuk, there all these people were named as the first cause of all the beats, but now, sorry, those times have already passed , we are in a very interesting situation, when it is already the fourth year, two years of covid, already... almost two years of war, there is no

normal procedure in ukraine appointments, we canceled competitions, because of war, and as a result, the entire power pyramid, think about it, all state institutions and state enterprises, it is managed by people who were simply appointed because someone likes them, as a result, all this must be held responsible really one room in this country, because all these people came to power in the name of the president, and this is not an exaggeration , it is a fact, so now you have to answer to a large extent for this, volodymyr oleksandrovich, and i understand why he is so nervous about this. thank you, mr. andriy, after a short pause on our tv channel, we will return to our conversation, i am appealing to the viewers, do not switch, it will be interesting, there are discounts on helpeck. anticoy 20% in

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my people are, in their hot veins, cossack blood pulsates and buzzes, the broadcast is ongoing on expresso tv, this is the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko. i remind you that during the program we conduct a survey, we ask you, dear viewers, about such things. should corruption in ukraine be equated with treason, if so, you think so, then call by number 0800-211-381, no, 0800-21-382. all calls to these numbers are free, it is important for us to know your opinion, for those who are watching. separately on youtube our broadcast, please like this video and also vote there two options yes, no, or if you have any additional or special opinion, you can leave it in the comments, in the comments below this video. let me remind you that today we are on air with andriy

osachuk, people's deputy of ukraine from the voice faction, oleg synyutka, people's deputy of ukraine from the european solidarity faction, oleksiy kucherenko, people's deputy of ukraine, faction: fatherland, we, gentlemen, are constantly talking about what to do with this corruption, and our western partners also say that corruption threatens ukraine, and there are demands from the european union to overcome corruption, and today you voted for two draft laws on the expansion of the nabu staff and the powers of the zk, although only in the first reading, that is, the anti-corruption bureau will now... have 1,000 employees instead of 700, and this should happen in stages and out of the competition, what dozk, then nazk will re-check the assets and property of officials that they acquired before being appointed to public positions, but 10 years have passed since

the slogans, get rid of corruption from power, were announced on the euromaidan and what, what needs to be fought with this...' and they fought, we struggled for 10 years, again we came to the point that we once again created a large anti-corruption infrastructure, excellent legislation was passed in the verkhovna rada, nabu, nazk, sap, the anti-corruption court, well, it seemed, the sdb, what is still missing in order for this corruption overcome, mr. oleksiy, you started talking about it, well, it is not clear how to overcome this hydra. what should be done already, or already, chop off the hands of the friends of the presidents, as zelsky once asked poroshenko at a debate, why all your friends have hands, well, now you can ask zelsky why all your friends have hands, it really is so, i just want to emphasize once again that i support several theses that

were said, were said, first, in any case, because believe me, and well, every reasonable, patriotic, adequate person, including my colleagues and i definitely constantly think about why it doesn't work, well, what should be done, because everyone is fed up and ashamed , you know, it's a shame that in europe, when it's profitable for them, well, let's face it, the attitude towards ukraine is not very simple there , we understand, yes, there are countries that do not want and will sabotage our entry into the european union, we give them these trump cards with this constant corruption, and they are corruption, corruption that is in poland... they are talking about corruption in ukraine, that in states and so on and the like, first, i agree with mr. oleg that this construction the mono government, which is absolutely wrong... but this was a huge mistake of the voters of our ukrainian people, do not be offended

, my friends, they decided to experiment, why this is very bad, because this mono government realized that it takes full responsibility for everything, it completely is responsible for the situation, that is clear, but it does not allow absolutely any cross control over any financial flows, over the actions of this or that institution. you understand, well, there can be no control here, not even an accounting chamber theoretically, it should be a tool of the supreme council and probably such oppositions to control how money is distributed by the government , it is the same, i am not saying that there is no head, it is now dismantled, you understand, this accounting chamber, but it will still be from servants of the people, because we understand who they are going to bring there from the president's office, and it bothers me in general, as the head of the temporary special commission on energy security, i sent dozens of requests during the year: show me

the results of the audits, the sign of naftagaz, ukrenergo, tsentrenergo, the operator gts, others state companies, no, they don’t give me these audits , they say, we checked, but the law enforcement immediately closed it all, well , tell me, how can you manage the energy... assets of a country where there is also a lot of corruption, you understand, if this everything is secreted by a special, well, morasmatic procedure, unfortunately, the same is done in other areas, but it is breaking through, because it really is, unfortunately, we see that they already cannot contain this flow, therefore, in principle, in principles, now i am not convinced that the additional 300 ranks, well 300 investigators in the nabu, yes, that they will radically change something there, well, it seems to me that everything is fine, this system is in this format, it somehow does not work, and there may be one of

the options, it is certain, control by our partners, as european , and american, for overseas, and the reason for this is completely clear, we give you money, we help you, we have every right to control how you use our money, sorry, it will be difficult to argue against such logic, i understand that not everyone agrees, because there is such a certain loss here sovereignty, but this situation is not trivial in our country, and it seems to me that these mechanisms may become dominant in the near future, at least the pressure from financial partners will be very strong on us, we need to prepare and get used to this, by the way, the united states of america has appointed special representative. or rather, a special representative for the economic recovery of ukraine, and they appointed the quite successful ms. penny

pritzker, she has ukrainian roots and her ancestors, and i'm sorry serhii, i'm going to interrupt you, and you see, the whole visit, the main goal, is tetatet's conversation with mr. zelsky, yes, because mrs. pritzker, excuse me, understands that we have these roads... where do they lead? to bankova street and there is no need to hide it, you understand, no one needs to be fooled, all this is going to bankova street , everyone knows this absolutely, but look, mr. andriy, i am addressing you, it is obvious that the situation in the government is not so fast will change, well, the war will continue, there will be no elections, zelsky, even if there are elections, he has a pretty good chance to be re-elected and lead the whole team again, well it is possible an updated team of some kind and cosmetically update it and show a new team that will restore ukraine

, all the same, this situation does not change, that is , how to control money, opportunities, corruption and everything else in this situation, there are americans who will monitor, there are the europeans, who will monitor this, and yet, sergey, first of all, i spoke about this in a big way last year, now it is definitely necessary to speak more loudly about it, especially in the last 4-5 months there, i am absolutely convinced that the task of winning the war and the task of winning any subsequent elections are completely contradictory to each other, if volodymyr zelenskyi and his boys and girls are still thinking about how to win the parliamentary or presidential elections there, they are delaying victory, because for victory, for an effective war, very tough and unpopular decisions are needed , otherwise it does not work, now we still

do not make many such decisions, because again, according to the old tradition, servants of the people. they don't want to fight with the voters, it won't end well, so i sincerely hope that this there will be awareness, i sincerely hope that what i have already said several times, i will repeat , i really want to, volodymyr zelenskyi was the president of victory, and the president of reconstruction, i hope, will be some other president, probably he is now somewhere in military uniform performing his duties i am an officer of the ukrainian army, i don't care what his last name is, returning to the essence of your question, i am in my fifth year. i repeat to everyone 10 times a week that corruption is a consequence, it is not a cause, it is a consequence, we are constantly fighting the consequences, if you constantly have a high temperature, and you knock it down with pills, you are not cured, you are deceiving yourself, you need to understand why you have that temperature, the same with corruption, with corruption offenses, this is a consequence of an ineffective state system, i

understand, it is more difficult to explain to people, it is more difficult with this to work, it makes it more difficult to go out there for some meetings, but the state machine is catastrophically inefficient, and it creates these corruption risks, which are used by low-quality state officials, who, again, are constantly poisoned by everyone, including anti -corruptionists are professional, you see the situation we are in, that over the last year, on the 23rd, we ourselves once again stirred up hysteria around corruption, which, among other things , transformed into hatred of state institutions. people's deputies, all scoundrels, all state officials, scoundrels, all bribe takers and so on. but this is the state of ukraine and these are not some martians, these are our people , among them there are a lot of decent people who work day and night to save this country, but we rocked this story and now very many of our friends in america and europe

say, oh, there is already corruption, why do i need money? давать, they will steal everything there, and we are trying to keep up with ourselves in this way. in general, all our measures to prevent corruption, you know, they look more like someone's desire to make such a perfect mousetrap, to put it in the most visible place, at this time they are scattering grain in corners and no one is looking at it. that is , once again, we need to build an effective system of public administration, we need to grow a professional bureaucracy. quality ones are needed officials, otherwise nothing will happen, thank you, just a minute, mr. oleg, you have , in order to summarize our conversation, i would really like people to remember that the existence of the anti-corruption system for many years is an illusion, the anti-corruption vertical, its

the formation was completed only at the beginning of 2019, that is, the 17th-18th year - this was precisely the process of the formation of the anti-corruption model and nabu, and the creation of the sap, and all these structural changes, they only took place in the 17th-18th year , because on the 14th-15th, we stopped the racist aggression and began to revive as a state, come on friends, let's be honest that since the 19th year , the current government has tried to break all these anti-corruption, verticals, let's remember the struggle for the position of head of the parliament, well , you and i are witnesses of how the government wanted the independence of the anti-corruption authorities, but subordinate to themselves, appoint their own person , a specialized anti-corruption prosecutor , the same story, the government did not want to have an independent body that will fight regardless of surnames, cabinets and positions, again wanted to subordinate to itself, that is, in

this is the reason, this is the key to the problem of fighting corruption, thank you. oleg synyutka, oleksiy kucherenko and andriy osachuk were guests of our program today , gentlemen, i thank you for participating in the program, during this broadcast we conducted a survey, you were asked whether corruption in ukraine should be equated with the state council, let's see the results of the survey , yes 93%, 7% no, these are the results of this survey, it was a program of the verdict of serhii rudenko, i say goodbye to you, until tomorrow until 20:00, until date. problems with the frontal joints limit movement, it is unpleasant and painful. strengthen them with the help