90 years since the most terrible tragedy in the history of the ukrainian people, 90 years of the holodomor, we are talking about the events then and now, today on bbc ukraine, in the jaferu studio. the chronicle of the 30s calls ukraine the granary of europe. shows happy collective farm women on the endless ukrainian lands, the reality was completely different, millions starving, now that 90 years of the famine have passed, isn't putin trying to repeat the atrocities of the stalinist regime? 90 years have passed since the soviet genocide by famine, and the exact figures of the number of people killed in the famine are unknown.

historians give different data from 2.5 to 7 million people. the most tragic days of the holodomor unfolded during 1932-33, however, according to researchers, the soviet authorities had been preparing for the destruction of ukrainians for years. the leadership of the ussr consistently made fatal decisions that led to the death of millions. preparations for the famine began in december 1927. then soviet. the government announced collectivization, i.e. began to herd peasants into collective farms, and the political label kukul was imposed on wealthy peasants and those who resisted joining collective farms. for in 1928, the authorities arrested more than 3,300 peasants, and in the 1930s, the disarmament policy became a mass action that affected approximately one million ukrainians. during that year, thousands were recorded in ukraine.

peasant uprisings, more than a million people spoke out against it, but the authorities forcibly drove the peasants into collective farms, they believe that it was the collective farms that created the conditions for the starvation of the peasants. the famine began in january 1932, when the first reports of starvation began to appear . long-term repression, searches, fines, threats and physical abuse. repressions continue from february to april, becoming more frequent. reports of famine continue until june, stalin rejects requests for help and actively continues the preparation of laws that caused millions of deaths, and in august the authorities passed the famous law on five ears of corn, during the month of the law in september, the authorities issued 250 death sentences , in october arrested more than 40,000 people for stealing bread. and in october, for the first time , the superiority of mortals was recorded... over

the birth rate in ukrainian villages. the following month, in november, the authorities intensify repression, blockade villages, stop the supply of industrial goods and actually prohibit people from leaving for other cities and republics of the ussr. and in january 1933, the soviet leadership threatened with reprisals those who did not voluntarily hand over all the grain. the typhus epidemic worsened, and the authorities officially forbade the peasants to leave... from ukraine. in february , reports of deaths became the norm from the authorities in all regions of ukraine, in march, these cases of cannibalism were mentioned more often. most deaths are no longer register in april and may of the 33rd year , the height of the famine, and the apogee of deaths from the famine is spring and the beginning of summer. the situation began to change at the end of the summer of 1933, when grain began to be returned to the peasants little by little. one the direct effects

of the famine lasted until 1935, and the indirect effects, according to demographers, lasted for many decades. i advise you to read about these most tragic days in history in the article on our website bbc.ua, holodomor in ukraine, chronology of genocide. this is the name of the material. i highly recommend it. the author of the article collected everything it is known about the preparation for the famine and described the chronology of those events. by the way , we will talk with iryna kurganska in the program later, but for now we will talk about today's events. russian president putin is using food as a weapon in the current war. this was stated by the representative of the united states during a recent meeting of the un security council. she equated his actions with stalin's policies. according to linda thomas greenfield, in one attack on ukraine, russia destroys 60,000 tons of grain and deprives. food for more than 2000 people. as

stalin, putin uses food as a weapon of war, and like stalin putin inflicted famine and death on ukraine. so, let's be clear: russia is not only waging a war against the people of ukraine and its food supply, it is also a war against vulnerable people around the world who depend on food exports from ukraine. we know that russia has exacerbated global food security, before the full-scale russian invasion, ukraine was one of the leading producers and exporters of agricultural products, but ukraine's wheat production is now 35% lower than the pre-war volume, why. because russia stole ukrainian grain, sabotaged agricultural land, shelled ukraine's agricultural infrastructure and port cities. the fact that russia planned an artificial famine in ukraine is said not only at the un level. the international human rights company

global rights compliance conducted an investigation and found evidence that the kremlin, even before the full-scale invasion, was preparing to cause deliberate starvation in ukraine. the lawyers established that when russian tanks first entered the territory of ukraine on february 24, they immediately targeted granaries and farms, and a few months before that, russia bought trucks and ships for grain transportation. according to experts, this indicates plans to steal ukrainian food on an unprecedented scale. currently, a team of leading lawyers is preparing a lawsuit to the international criminal court. if enough evidence can be gathered, the case will be the first of its kind in history. when can putin get a new arrest warrant from gaga? my colleague victoria zhuhan spoke with the author of the investigation. why you believe that vladimir putin planned not to steal grain, but to cause famine. when

the occupation took place, the russian military, the occupation administration, they quickly seized grain facilities. and this proves that. there was advance planning and high coordination of what was happening. the main thing that i would like to mention is that it was a subsidiary company of a russian state contractor that purchased these 170-meter grain trucks even before the start of the war. and here it is worth paying attention to the fact that the size of these grain trucks, because they were just in the maximum permissible size for the sevastopol grain terminal, there were also other pieces of evidence, including gps trackers, job postings, about drivers, and about how russia built a complex logistics infrastructure, just after they seized, captured this territory, why is

there even this hypothesis that the goal was not to collect food and use it, for example, in russia, namely to deprive the ukrainian civilian population of the means of survival. we are currently looking at two crimes in this report, these the crime of starvation and the crime of theft. we are collecting facts, we, this will be part of the submission to the international criminal court, and it seems to us that attacks on any objects are necessary for survival, this is already an indicator of the potential possibility of proving the crime of starvation. i wonder what the maximum punishment could be, what the consequences could be if this crime ...was proven, it's hard to say because the crime of starvation has never been proven in any criminal tribunal, and if this case goes to the icc, in the international criminal court, then this will be the first case ever heard by an international criminal court, regarding the war crime

of starvation itself, so it is difficult to predict. and we talk more about this with iryna kurganska, a researcher and popularizer of the holodomor topic, who joins our broadcast. i congratulate you , irina. that is why even now, 90 years after the soviet famine, which dozens of parliaments of the world define as a genocide of ukrainians. we still have wide discrepancies in estimates of the number of dead. good evening. yes, the issue of victim counts is a really difficult topic, because you need to understand that we are talking about events that took place 90 years ago, and for example, exhumation is no longer an option. therefore, you need to know, in addition to where to dig, because the memory of the crime. was deliberately erased, at the place of mass burials, streets were laid, parks and squares were built , as, for example, in kharkiv, so such traditional methods do not work, instead, historians and demographers, as well as pathologists use various historical and social methods, sociological, counting censuses,

although there is also inaccurate information, i often distort them, their commissions that conducted these censuses, they were then repressed so that they did not show the population decrease after the holodomor, for example, and likewise... by regions, by regions, by settlements, and these are all very complex mathematical formulas, but they are also incomplete data that we can get , for example, from church or civil registration books, deaths, and because there were also special orders not to register the dead, and thus we have disagreements and this is work for historians about calculations, maybe new technologies will help us in this, but it is worth remembering that these data are not final, they can be revised, now we have a figure determined by the institute of demography at 3.9 million, this is a figure that we use it, although it can be revised, and we remember that the number does not really affect the recognition of the crime, because nowhere is it said how many people can be considered the death of how many people to be genocide,

it is about the intention and its implementation, as in the case of the famine. and you see any similarities with the events of the 90s and today? yes, of course, we can talk about the persistence of the intention to destroy the ukrainian nation, about the denial of its existence, and this is a prerequisite for genocide, and also that, and how it is carried out, the means, that's all... that is , once it was hunger, now it is a more open attack, although now we also see the theft of grain, and the blockade and burning of fields, and i think everyone has seen photos of how ukrainian farmers continue to cultivate the fields even now, despite the threat of mines or shelling, and this indignity ukrainians, this is also endurance, because in the 30s, ukrainians also fought to the last, and our task now is to tell about the famine, about the past, it would seem that foreigners, in particular, saw this endurance and also the endurance of our struggle, the struggle of ukrainians. thank you, thank you, iryna, iryna

kurganska, a famine researcher, was in touch with the studio. the more time passes since the famine, the fewer people who survived it or remember those times , the heroine of our next story, the grandmother of my colleague, marta shokolo, is no longer alive. here's how she showed the bbc, one of the ways that helped her survive the hungry 30s, taught her to bake bread from weeds and bran, this syu... from our archive i am karpenko nina makarivna , the village of matskivtsi, lubensky district, poltava region, i was born here, here and i lived up to 87 hours, the eighth was already mine, and so all the grief was transferred to me, i know everything, how we suffered in the 33rd. during the famine, my grandmother. nina was a six-year-old girl, but she still remembers the recipe for the bread that they ate then to survive,

how are you here, nothing, we live, so we cook what what are we going to make bread from, this is what our grandmother has dried here, grandmother, what are these kalachyki, they dried vylachyki, kalachyki, this kind of huryan grows, there is a lot of it in the yard, and this is dried nettle, my mother brought it. i went, handed it in, it was called torsin, then my mother would take the same cross and gold earrings there, and for those earrings they would take even grains, even just bran, it ’s a shame the bran itself, they will use it, then we will mix it with various different weeds, and the last detail, before we put it in the oven, we take. a piece of wax, then there was no oil, then there was also a shortage of oil, so we took wax and

rubbed it on the pan on a grater so that the whole mixture that we mixed did not stick, so our bread was baked, yes, for you, you, hard. dry, it's good that it's salted, adds a little taste, well, it tastes like grass, it tastes like grass, actually what's there, a year after this conversation, nina makarivna passed away, among the millions of memorial candles that ukrainians will light this sunday , her candle will also burn in one window. that's all for today, more stories on our site, keep yourselves.

greetings, friends, this is a live broadcast of the tv channel and the verdict program, it's already the second hour of our broadcast, and my name is serhiy ordenko, and today, like friday, we have a journalism club: what we will talk about, look in the announcement. global war and the participation of the military in the politics of zelensky's interview with the sun. what did the president... want to say to the world, and what to the ukrainians? he no longer likes speed, which was arrested by the court of people's deputy dubinsky. maidan 3, how is russia's propaganda evolving? during of our program we conduct a survey. friends, today we ask you about whether ukraine can make compromises with russia

in order to end the war. yes, no, please vote on youtube and also the phone lines on the... screens you can now see phone numbers, all calls to these numbers are free. if you believe that ukraine should compromise with russia in order to end the war, call 0800-211-381, no, 0800-21-382. all calls to these numbers, once again, are free. i would like to introduce our guests today studios, these are the best ukrainian journalists. olga len, tv journalist, host of the chronicle program. information war, which is broadcast on the espresso tv channel. ulgo, hello. good evening, and maryna danylyuk-yermalayeva, journalist, author and host of censornet and showbiz youtube channels. marina, congratulations. good evening, everyone. bohdan butkevich, tv journalist and radio host, author and host of youtube channels censornes and showbiz. bohdan, congratulations. i congratulate you, mr.

serhiy, and your viewers. well, since, since we ask our viewers about whether it is possible to make some compromises. with russia in order to end the war, i will also ask you whether it is possible to make any compromises, i will only say that in the first part of our program , 15% of our tv viewers voted for making compromises in order to end the war, it is simply interesting that you think about it, let's start with olga , well, the question here is not simply whether it is worth it, the question is whether it makes sense, whether there is any practical benefit from this, well, unfortunately, there is practically no benefit at all, that is , i don't know what how they dream there and what they think 15% who believe that it is possible, it is simply impossible, well, that is, let's not be fooled, it is simply impossible, they absolutely, well, that is, in the russian understanding of the world, there is no such idea at all that ukraine should be in some form and what about ukraine

we need to agree on something, no, they don't have that, in principle, well, they don't know the word compromise either, so they just...' they want , or someone forced, ukraine to capitulate, everything so that we don't exist , this, this is not, this is not a compromise, thank you, ola, maryna, well, you know here such a question is debatable, because it sounds like, was it possible to find a compromise between andriy chikatilo, the famous serial killer, and his victims, and as you understood, by chikatilo, i mean the russian federation, and under. ..' his victims are ukraine, i would say differently here, do we understand what peace with russia is, instead of these stories about compromise, because we have heard a lot of stories about let's find a compromise with russia since 2014, and on february 24, 2022, this is not good for us

brought, because the lion's share of ukrainians lived precisely in the illusion that compromises with russia could be found somewhere. thank you, marino, bohdan, look, to me our conflict, i have been saying this for a long time, most of all reminds me of the war of independence of the netherlands with spain, which, by the way , lasted 80 years, i will remind you, well, i hope, ours will be less, although, if you count 17th century, then it continues even longer, but in the grand scheme of things, to which i am leading, our conflict boils down to the main story, if ukraine receives security guarantees, security guarantees are not conversations about what we we will give you weapons and we will help you, no, we finally have with... these are allies, that is, those people who are ready to fight for us, and we will be ready to fight for them, and it should certainly not be russia. as soon as we have such allies, someone will really give us such security guarantees, but it is better that it is usually nato or the united states of america separately, then we can go to negotiations with russia, from that position, understanding that we have the main thing is that we have guarantees that we will not be left alone, until that moment all

negotiations with russia can be, unless some absolutely temporary things, temporary truces. who, by the way, were in the netherlands with spain four times during this war, and then the war was renewed anyway, that is why the main question is: ukraine must finally find allies, while we do not have these allies, any negotiations with russia simply meaningless, because russia will never agree to sign some kind of peace with us, if it does not understand that it has no more opportunities to destroy us, and this is of course the main goal, that's all, thank you bohdan let's start our conversation. with buratin from oleksandr dubinsky, because this week the court confiscated all his large property and once again reminded us all that this people 's deputy of ukraine has 24 apartments, 17 cars, two houses, 70 acres of land worth more than 2.5 million dollars

, we know that he is, well, at least that's what the sbu says about the fact that he is an fsb agent, nicknamed pinocchio, that 's pinocchio, slandered and slandered such and such, real estate and such and such cars, during the war, it looks absolutely wild when volunteers there bring every car... they bring from abroad for our soldiers, it turns out that he had 17 cars parked in his garage here, and the question is probably not even that, but why did everyone watch for so long how this pinocchio turned into the golden pinocchio, and how, like this pinocchio in general, for a long time, this pinocchio was taken care of by the servants of the people, and personally president zelenskyi was also...' tangential to the fact that sasha pinocchio was the head of the kyiv regional party organization servant of the people, olya, they did not see who

they took him to the list, or they took him on the contrary, they understood who he was and knew that this pinocchio would be a pinocchio with them, like a pinocchio at the fsb, well, i think he was chosen immediately in this capacity, because it was not for whom is absolutely a secret, neither his views on life, nor, in principle, his method of action. and well, they took from absolutely conjunctural some of their understanding that this is a person, or is close to them in spirit, or is needed, and here rather the question arises, you know, why it took so long for the law enforcement agencies to do something like that to find, although everything was lying on the surface and everyone was talking about it since the 19th year, well, literally, well , the press conference that they once... who is andrii derkach, well, it's all really sad, because

, you, you understand, it's just that, now dubinsky is such a convenient media figure that can be shown very beautifully, look at what we 're doing, that's why that there really is so much already piled up there, but a lot of people from derkach's entourage, how are the influences left, well they influenced, for example, in the energy atom and in the sumy region, and they influence in the energy atom and the sumy region, and to say that it is now safe for the country, and why is it suddenly so, it is dangerous for the country, that is, it is not called buratin, well here our tv viewers, who watch us on youtube, congratulate all those present in our studio and convey their congratulations to bohdan and marina and say that in fact dubinsky looks more like artemon than pinocchio, and here you can argue, because obviously his nickname is the fsb went from the club, that is, from

the clubs were planed, buratin, well, god knew him, bohdan, how do you perceive this whole story with dubinsky, taking into account the fact that he somehow went along with igor kolomoisky, well, that is, dubinsky was always considered kolomoisky’s man, he worked for kolomoiskyi's tv channel and when kolomoiskyi went to sizo and dubinskyi went to sizo, but there is one moment when kolomoiskyi was put in sizo, then zelenskyi was at the un general assembly, he was going there, and we know that both kolomoiskyi and dubinskyi in united the united states of america has a rather difficult attitude, they are both on the sanctions lists, when yermak flew to washington, then dubinska was imprisoned. can dubinsky and kolomoisky be such scapegoats now against the background of what is happening, and then they will simply be released, they will say, well, they

are not guilty of anything, the investigation simply proved that pinocchio is, in fact, lemonade, not dubinsky's nickname, you are absolutely right, mr. serhiy, not only that, i think that this is exactly the scenario that is planned, well , that is, ihoryavich will definitely be stripped, it is obvious, they take everything from him, well, excuse me, as valery said, life is like a supermarket, take what you want, but at the end of the cash register, he said, he said, well, now he has a cash register, well, nothing, i think, he, in there is a lot of decrepit things there, it’s like, you know, our meirland ukrainian bottling, i think that after his death there will be a couple of lams for him somewhere in the woodwork, i’m not worried about dubinsky, that’s the only thing for me, here we are with marina about we say this all the time, but how is it, well, of course he is a bastard, but a bastard is very cunning. yes, here how did he come up with the idea of ​​falling directly into the russian intelligence scheme, well, i think this is just a story about the fact that the dude's greed got the best of him, well, you just know, when

you think you're being carried away, everything works out, you're such a fart, this is, by the way , zelenskyi has the same story, it seems to me that they are in the east in this regard, in general you are absolutely right, i think that these are absolutely bad attempts of the president’s office, you know, you have to understand that these are people who, well, they are really swindlers in their thinking, yes, and they really think that with such bazaar tricks, twisting and turning, as i want, it is possible to show the americans that they are really for you, for you, josie, we are for you, we are the same, well, that’s what they say there, look, and we give you... dubinsky, and you give us money, money, and even this right now, you understand, yes, but we will not touch tatarov, but we will give you dubinsky, well, let's trade, well, you are absolutely right, mr. serhii was told that it was not by chance that everything happened like this, just on the other hand, i am just wondering if it is not, i am not i doubt that mr. germak does not understand this, i think that marina will now continue what they are doing now in terms of the fair and

why he went to america, i don’t have any ideas... but i’m just looking at all those i will repeat the bazaar cliché, but i’m just curious, they haven’t yet realized that it doesn’t work that way a little bit , the question answers itself, no, that’s why, that’s why i completely agree with your version, mr. sarina, it seems to me that now it ’s very it is nice to know the voters of district 94, this is vasylkivskyi, obbuhivskyi district, who they are elected as a people's deputy. a whole agent is actually a game of pinot noir, and it seems to me that it would be especially nice for the inhabitants of the most prosperous villages to know this, because i will remind you that the famous koncha zaspa, she is also , by the way, assigned to the obukhiv district, and in fact, the residents there actually have such a majoritarian, what happened to sashko dubinsky, well, look, i remember those times when every young journalist was wished something like marinochka, i wish you the same success

as dubinsky, yes, even now i smile like that and think, i probably don't need such success, when on the one hand you are stifled by american sanctions, and on the other hand you have a case of high treason in ukraine, and it is obvious that you are being made a scapegoat from such a media and premium, former deputy who was such a bait for the servants of the people party list , but here is an interesting thing, sashko... it seems to me that a lot of information should be given to nutryak about how the elections were held, who helped whom, for example, his last entry in his telegram concerns how he became a people's deputy in our country not anyone, but the first the current vice-speaker sasha kornienka, a big party figure among the servants of the people, so there dubinsky directly states that he seems to have bought him a deputy, such a deputy

is also from... the servants of the people party, davydenko, but the most interesting thing is that in 2020, that davydenko seems to have finished life is self-inflicted, and you understand, such stories will be overgrown with those details that people will come up with, so we are waiting for fascinating reading and not only about what actually happened inside the party, the government of the servants of the people and how did these noun names come to her? olya, i wanted to ask here. марина і богдан говорять про те, що що, що оці от виборці там, чи що, що ті люди, які там голосували за сашу дубінського за слугу народу, чи вони взагалі, по-твоєму, усвідомлять про те, що кого вони обрали, a person with huge fortunes, because i think that no journalist of ukraine, or even a former journalist of ukraine, can compare to what sasha dubinskyi said, who just let... winked

at investigative journalists and talked about what mom loves speed, because in he has cars and it’s all written on his mother, well, i won’t be surprised if they vote for something like that again, you know, well, it’s necessary, well , let’s turn it back and see how many majority voters passed, or just on the brand, well, take for example , obolon district, where marijana bezugula came to us, who is simply, well, zero in general. well, no one, and what she is doing now is simply because she is a people's deputy and she has, you know, some kind of opinion about herself that is off the charts, that is, i don't think that it is somehow connected, moreover, you know, i don't have some kind of special expectation that we will hear something interesting from dubinsky, by the way.