[000:00:00;00] you can go in, but there are no tools to get out, and there is no way to get rid of someone, and there is no way to throw someone out, so on the one hand, it is a suitcase that does not have a handle, but on the other hand , the european union can create conditions under which hungary and other countries will to think what they will be able to do without the european union, and what, well, many people ask, and what has not been created yet, understanding how many subsidies the european union receives the same orban, he behaves absolutely not compliant, sometimes bending both ukraine and the european union, but the answer, you can answer, you know, which state in europe gave the last... the right of women to vote, well, don't say that hungary, switzerland, but you know why, why, well, because the relevant decision should have been approved only by those who already had the right to vote, well , that is, what is all this leading to, to transform the rules for approving a decision in the european union, it is necessary to reach a consensus in the european union regarding

the change of these rules, and such, since they are now being approved , wait, well oon, we understand, in such a situation, we have reached a dead end, and we understand that already now the whole world says that this institution does not work because the right of veto in the council of security was blocked by a terrorist, yes, and the eu, you say, is still in the process of transformation, what is the difference , there is more influence, and you have to understand, orban is not in the existing vacuum, orban exists in the government, well, in hungary, there is an opposition in hungary , orbán is not a self-made man there. and i can imagine the reaction of the hungarians, well, i have been to hungary several times, i think that i have some connections with this country, yes, my friends, so i am a little familiar with how it functions, well, hungary is not the best, how to say , well, from the point of view of climate and geography, yes, but that's it it is very problematic from the point of view of many points, and hungarians work in europe, and young people also leave hungary, and orbán

wins elections mainly in rural areas , so it is necessary to understand that there is an influence, that is, he wins the elections due to the fact that it is as if he thinks that transcarpathian hungarians, he gave out passports there and now draws for himself how much he lacks for victory, he draws so much for himself at the expense of this, but the joke is that there are hungarians who live at the expense of the fact that hungary is a part of the european union, and if they tomorrow they will say that we will no longer be part of the european union, and that will mean for us this, that, that, that, yes, and pierre woodman will no longer be filming porn in budapest, that's when there will be problems, you know, no, yes, well , listen, i, i usually exaggerate so that people understand what it is, so that there are no illusions, well, that is, because many people have some, you know, such an illusory situation, that there, you know, there is just some abstract hungary, in which there is no economy, in which there are no

citizens who just sit and money, rude speaking, from the european union, when i am told about the smuggling of cigarettes, i have always been curious, and how it happens that , in short, their customs officers do not catch this smuggling, we are far away on other very interesting topics, are the hungarians going to block the hungarian border now , let's not talk like that, there is one point at which i will not be closed, because cigarettes must be transported, and someone from the other side of the border feeds on these cigarettes, you understand, you stopped the conversation. that there were initiatives in slovakia to block poland there were, but for some reason there are none from hungary, in hungary they only report that the load on the crossing points has greatly increased there , they talked about the reform of european institutions, and there are several reasons, firstly, a very bureaucratized system in which there are nine circles of hell, which need to come in order to make a decision in the procedural plan of adoption at the level of the european union, and secondly, in the context of the same

veto, which is now being talked about, that there is a rule... of the vote, for example, scholz spoke before the bundestag and said: " it is necessary to pass to the qualified majority , and from another capital, from paris, france, macron said that no, this does not suit us, because we lose our power in this way, and a very similar situation, by the way, is happening in brics, in the organization, somewhere this p 'yatirka wanted to add new members, but on the condition that they also have this right of veto, and everyone understands that in this way they are diluting their influence and their power, that's why we are here. we will also rely on resistance from individual countries that want to cement their emergence and their power at the level of european institutions, so it can stretch for years, just like the accession of ukraine to the european union, because in fact, in december, the decision to start negotiations does not mean at all, says valentin, for a society that is in ecstasy, that it will be a quick decision, and the year 2030, which our european colleagues tell us about as a benchmark, looks

very optimistic, because in ukraine. the first european offices of the european union appeared in 1993-1994, and from that moment the countdown to ukraine's accession to the european union began at least integration, so looking at 30 years behind, seven years ahead is a very beautiful perspective, and there is one important point on which i would like to emphasize that we are still talking about democratic states, a feature of democratic states is the change of power, and in in the case of parliamentary republics or, for example, constitutional monarchies , change can occur very often, in particular, for example, in slovakia, where fico won the election and formed a government, and in the netherlands, where elections were held. not yet it is clear with what specific result, but this right-wing populist political force won the first place there, it was an early election, because there was a political crisis, the answer to this political crisis was early parliamentary elections, and they

may also happen after a short period of time, because we are talking about the arrival of the populists as a response to a certain symptom, but you and i already understand that they will not cure this symptom, well, they can promise anything, but you will not become a management genius simply because what you say something there and promise, and if you were, for example, a management genius, like the same leader, again, these same dutch right-wing polists, huh, then you would not sit there somewhere unknown for decades and wait for your chance, you would already be in power, in management, if you were really worth something, and that's why they will come to power, they won't accomplish anything, they won't realize anything. after six months , the rating and popularity will begin to fall, the coalition partners will look and say, why do we need it, sink together with them, let's go to new elections there, maybe we'll find something better, such a scenario is also completely realistic and fully fits into the logic

of european politics, it will be difficult to corrupt orban there, because he has already established himself there, rooted himself, built a suitable system, but there is nothing incredible there either no, and the time of orbán's rule in hungary. will also end in due time, because hungary is also part of the european union, yes, there are authoritarian tendencies, yes, i was talking about this okru cutting, let's just have a few minutes, i want to ask you give them two minutes each to summarize and explain to the audience what to expect in the political life of europe until the end of the year, to understand which processes are normal expectations, and which are already swans, gray, white, black, look, i would like to warn you right away , what is a black swan, there is... known-unknown and there is an unknown unknown, so a black swan is an unknown unknown, that is, the coming to power is the right of populists, it is not a black swan, because in principle it is something that can happen, it is very

unlikely, what can happen, and what is real don't worry, all forecasts are based on a simple principle, provided the existing trends are maintained, provided the existing trends are maintained, ukraine will continue to receive aid. today there was information, about the last ramstein, by the way, and there, by the way, they said that ukraine's aid is increasingly being reoriented to what, to the long-term, well, that is, if before it was the provision of operational means to ukraine, which are needed already today for here and now, as of today they are already strengthening the institutional capacity of ukraine in order to so that ukraine would be able to solve problems. in the medium-term perspective, in the long-term perspective, and this means long-term cooperation , this is what zelensky said, remember that even after the end of the war, the priority for the development of the ukrainian economy will be military tech,

security tech, yes, that is, security, che security sector, right, and when there was this vilnius summit before the vilnius summit, yes, when all these agreements, the so-called alliance agreements, were signed, one of the key moments there was... that the cooperation of the military industry, we understand that this cooperation will not only produce weapons for us, these weapons will also go into service with others, because these are technical standards, these calibers, this is a lot of things, so i am calm about this, and what it concerns, to add to the coalition, there is a beautiful book by john dunn, and there is another john keen, well, yes, well, two modern classics, and there they provide statistics for the countries of europe, where daedalus. political parties, especially minority ones, tend to form coalitions less and less, why? because being in a coalition for a minority party essentially puts an end to further parliamentary prospects

, it is a one-time action, that is, in the status of the opposition , they can enter the parliament from year to year and sit there for years and tell us that if we had power , we would do everything, we don’t have any, so we don’t really want to, and when they get to the radical right today, they were there before, but now they have to take responsibility for one and a half minutes, so it won’t last long, if so fail the bottom line, they will very quickly show that the problems that they... but to solve while in the opposition, they will be helpless to solve while in the status of power. ugh. i will probably continue about europe and ukraine. everyone is of the same opinion today, yes, it seems to me that the moment of germany's leadership in supporting ukraine is very important , that they are doubling down now there, well, despite all kinds of political crises and questions, that one of the countries of the leaders of the european union as such is taking in order to support ukraine and here, let's say to activate others. states in

in this regard, it is very important, probably in december we will receive a decision on the start of negotiations between ukraine and the european union, because orban is already preparing to receive this flow of 900 million, and will probably vote, but at the same time, this absolutely does not mean that it is us will bring us closer to the european union very quickly, because now these borders and the huge flow of cars that is now with poland will seem like an easy walk and flowers to us, compared to what awaits us in the negotiations with each. we have quite a lot of time for negotiations with other states, and with them we need to talk with the baltic countries, with germany, with france, and when we receive the lion's share of votes for joining, that's when, perhaps, some interesting political process will take place in these states, elections as a democratic method, sooner or later take place, and we will have an opportunity to push this process forward, so briefly about the euro's prospects.

but i want to note one more point here, you said that rammstein gives us a lot of help, and that's great, but we we are talking about military aid, i would also like to talk about the economic aid that comes directly to us for the life of the country, mr. peter, in two minutes, please explain the economic, political, and even military aid that we are waiting for until the end, considering to what your colleague maksym said, that despite the difficult walks, it will help us in some way in terms of money? well, now the question arises about the allocation of appropriate funding, about the strategic nature of this funding, because really everyone understands that it is necessary, and here i would like to say about another thing that there is such an important moment, which now becomes the most obvious, because , well, really, if... we take here all the various documents of the european union,

well, in general, how is it all arranged in them from the point of view of organization from the point of view of norms , well, everything is fine there, equality, all states have the right to vote, but each individual state can bequeath, and well, everything looks so beautiful, although we all perfectly understand , and the countries of europe understand just as well, that there are states that finance all this, ugh, and there are states that exist at the expense of this and use finance, and as a rule, when there are no problems, then no one talks about it, everyone is equal, everything is fine, there together we build a common europe , and when such crisis situations arise, then everyone must be periodically reminded that there is actually such a beautiful country as germany, which to a large extent finances all this, including the hungarians and many other beautiful countries, together with some other countries, which are also sufficiently wealthy, have a powerful economy, and

they, by and large, have to decide all this, because ah, when, for example, it will be about the accession of ukraine to the european union, then from a financial point of view, it will concern germany more , than hungary and many other beautiful states. and yet, judging by many signs, both direct and indirect, we can say that the germans have finally matured to understand that without ukraine there is no future for the european union. no, it means that the principles are political decisions have been made, but their implementation will take a lot of time and we must understand that, here i absolutely agree, it will be years of difficult consultations, negotiations, there will be a lot of betrayal, ugh, just streams of betrayal there about how someone refused, someone there did not sign something, someone canceled something again and so on, or became something, but it will be a movement, a movement towards the final goal, which after

a certain amount...' one of the stages, it will be the summit in december, which is certain will make a decision on this matter, but it will not even be that is not a final decision, it will simply be a certain statement of the passing of a certain important stage and the beginning of a new stage, and you can also make a remark, one, one, i am interested, by the way, here is the talk about the anti-ukrainian coalition, and i am interested in how fico and orban will decide problems of the slovak language in hungary and croatia, do you know which is the most common surname in hungary, if i remember correctly, it is croatian, and do you know why? i just want to remind you that there are territorial disputes with romania, as there are with the romanian language in hungary, so i lead this to the fact that all those the problems that we have with them, they have among themselves, so let them show an example in regulation , let's do this, i will summarize very briefly, we heard in the second part that a decision was made in europe and we have already followed this path, returning to of the first part, the only one who

can get in the way is us, if we stop thinking with our heads and quarrel, it is not known why, thank you, gentlemen, maksym dzhugun, petro olchuk, valentin gletki. thank you for this interesting conversation today, chevorons, approaching victory, tsn week mazur hall, tomorrow, we are here to... you impressive stories of indomitable people. we work so that fakes do not influence your decisions. everyone could see the meaning of things and actions. in this broadcast, a new weapon of mass destruction. how dangerous digital technology that falsifies videos and images can

affect the faith and trust of the most famous people. how the polish blockade on the ukrainian border can stop the economy. of both countries, and what is brewing in 30-kilometer queues of angry drivers, why in ukraine they give free houses for five years with all the property inside, and why benefactors are forced keep your own detectives for candidates? the main events so that everyone knows what to expect and can count on truth and justice. 25 years of trust and experience. tsn week mazur hall. tomorrow, having gathered all the people, we will advance for the occupied crimea, for kherson and donbas, it is time to advance and fight back, join our fighters, the brigade of the national people's police. the questionnaire can be filled out on the nabir npgo website

or by calling 097 725-25-13. rules of a warm country: bathroom. thank you for going low at night temperatures, loading the drum as much as possible, we will win the winter together. 1.1 i will continue the national telethon. currently, we are working in the format of a nightly discussion platform. and with you in the studio is maria vasilieva, i'm yevhen plinsky, today's topic is the information traps of war. ihor roskladai, deputy director of the center for democracy and the rule of law, is our guest. we welcome you to the studio. we will talk about how the information field has changed, about telegram, about television, about where ukrainians read

and get news, where they get fake news. , disinformation, and how to navigate in general, what has changed during the war, because they can. everything, including the media, will talk about it. mr. igor, i would like to start with fresh, statistical and analytical data, there is a lot of it, and we just mentioned several studies before the broadcast, we would like to refer you now to the study conducted by internews, internews, it is quite large, but simple in words, it says that, to the audience, we will show these statistics, news consumption by ukrainians has moved to social networks, the popularity of the telegram channel, various telegram channels has increased, the consumption of television and radio has decreased, print media has one thing, but

, i will say right away, there is one thing, but, now you will break it down, yes, the popularity of print media is also falling, and we are entering like this, like a new one. the stage of transformation of our media environment, when everything we built there before the war, the strategies of the media industry there , informing the population, it has changed a lot, and in some aspects not so much in a positive direction, so let's start with that, like you, what are the trends you see in these statistics, which are actually from different sources, it repeats the same messages , yes the statistics are true, they are more or less the same, that is, this is her study by internews in mind, this is the study of... the public network opora, this is the study of kantar, they in principle, everyone more or less gives the same numbers, that is, since the 15th year, we have had a very clear change in the dynamics of news consumption, content and even consumption. the media as such, yes, it was especially affected, that is, covid, when people sat down, sat down

at home, and they began to get to know a certain measure with new technologies, but the war simply forced us to look for those sources that were the most operational, because this is a matter of security, well, that is, we need to know where time will fly, yes, so that you have time to run to the basement in the subway, who can go where, or at least understand that it is not necessary to leave, that it is already becoming dangerous here. and that's why in the last two years, of course, we see a crazy growth , that is, let's say compare the 21st, 22nd, 23rd year, the growth of telegram is three or four times, that is , it is such a very rapid development, because telegram used to be more youth-oriented, content, some, somewhere a pirate, somewhere a boy, somewhere, different types, yes, but in principle it was so more, well, chamber, chamber, it is difficult to even call it a messenger, because it is also a hybrid, yes, that is, he is also a messenger, and there are channels, channels. but it's not quite a messenger anymore, yes, it's still some type , honey, just like a messenger it's not very convenient to use, it's more,

many users will not agree with you, i also try to use it as much as possible telegram, more than a measure of security stories, yes, but i what i heard from such active avid telegram users, yes, that there you can sort channels by folders, that you can make attached messages, that is , it is really very, very convenient for someone, but people write to you in telegram, you are forced to respond there, well, in this regard , i ignore it, that is, i force people to write to me either through signo or through whatsapp, well, or messenger at least, yes, well, that is, after all, those channels, which are more secure than than telegram, and here telegram actually, what else attracts it very strongly, is the absence of any censorship, that is, you can see everything there, yes, that is, from really some erotic manifestations to the way dogs stroke good movement. and such content is not acceptable on any other social network, neither on youtube, nor on facebook, nor on instagram, anywhere, because i will simply remind you of the scandal that

happened in russia, when even telegram itself was forced to delete one of the publics. which was called utra dagestan, which actually organized these pogroms in makhachkala, this particular channel, there were such calls for this, and this channel, i think, is the first precedent when it really... at the beginning of the invasion, there were at the beginning of the invasion some manifestations of deletion, but it is not massive , and yet telegram remains so, it is an exception, so pirated, it remains pirated, in fact, for any content , that is, on the one hand, it is somehow good that if it is necessary to show, somewhere there to raise morale, to show how beautiful our drome there does good russians, yes, but on the other hand , the russians are also playing against us on the same battlefield. this is a battlefield, yes, you don’t kill physically on it, that is, you will survive, but it is obvious that you are being poisoned informationally, your cities are constantly under

this psychological, emotional attack, and therefore telegram in this regard is actually quite dangerous, and the most dangerous thing is that it is not does not fall under any essentially european regulations, because it does not exist in europe, well , we are not talking about physical europe at the moment , but we are talking about europe as the european union, theogram is by all indications, it continues to be in st. petersburg in that estate , a beautiful house where vkontakte used to be, and all these manipulations, that they used to have an office in london, i found even in the british registers information about the closure of telegram, it was the 19th year, they are now formally, as it were, in dubai, but french journalists, in my opinion , conducted research, they went there and saw that there was no one there for 3 years, that this, well, you know, this as once in kyiv there was an address, a 26-year-old ukrainian woman, who remembers this address, i think half of kyiv was registered at that address at the time, well, this is the same story, that formally he is in dubai, but

in reality, this is where the question begins, but we can how much you can explain to the audience there that this is a russian product , that there may be vulnerabilities in the messenger, and anonymity in the telegram channel, but still, we live in a time when the speed and amount of news are substitutes. responsibility, credibility, and what to do with it, we, we still do not understand, are the first the days of the war really, you are right, everyone just plunged into telegram, channels were created one by one, gaining hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and some telegram channels are now, well, not just full-fledged media, they are even in terms of the cost of advertising, they are already they play on the field where tv channels play, and yes, there are telegram channels of the same name, which have

more than a million subscribers, and they have the cost of advertising, advertising posts. which hangs there for 20 minutes costs uah 160-180,000, i.e. $5,000 for one post on these channels, and this is a separate industry that has already formed, yes, this is a large industry that started growing a long time ago, the first thing we actually felt was the regional local media, because they, well, i even said, i remember in kharkiv they told me that our advertising was there, it costs so much, yes, but there is a gram channel with half a million subscribers, they are worth so much there, and of course, to throw advertisers for... cheaper and to a larger audience than the media pays, and this is really a problem, and well and i will say, the problem is that unlike the big bigtech platforms, which also really have an impact on the media of the whole world, we know that, yes, that is, we know that there are constant complaints about the way the content is distributed, that the media is not a priority in the feed, but we know that there on youtube, yes, there was a lot too many claims, but

at least these companies at least have some attainable jurisdiction. yes, that is, this is california and there is edworters, and somehow you can talk to them there directly or through interacting with the usa, well, at least look for some tools, it is clear that there are not many of them yet, but at least copyright protection has been working there for a long time, because he both in europe and in the usa, it is regulated, in the usa, it is an act on digital, copyright in digital digital copyright, accordingly , there are directives at the eu level, which are constantly updated and this regulation is strengthened, that is, here at least it somehow works , yes, there are also problems, again with our media, including you, there were stories when you open a page on facebook, for example, and you see that copyright complaints have flown in, you look from who, there is an arabic tv channel , claims the rights to the video, which was shot by locals in chernihiv, there near chernihiv, there at the beginning of march 22, well, yes, but such things

can be repelled, in principle, well, these stories are more or less. well, in my practice they are successful, yes, that is, i am simply stating that i am saying, well, it is impossible, it is simply impossible, because they could not own these rights, but we understand that in general, for example, the sphere of copyright in social networks, it had more serious precedents, for example, well, one of my first such big cases, with which we worked, was the case of domskoi, a well-known odesa publication, and it was completely deleted the profile on facebook , and when they began to promote this story, what happened , it turned out that there were...' used false complaints of alleged copyright infringement, social networks are obliged as an internet intermediary to actually respond to this and the profile was deleted, there were negotiations there for about a week, they were there, well, they investigated it and then returned it, thank god, everything is fine, i want to return you a little to telegram, you must have already heard about the intentions

of the authorities to somehow organize this sphere, and saw apparently, the post of the secretary of the national security council, oleksiy da, regarding the fact that the authorities are planning to somehow regulate this sphere, in particular, well, the main , main innovation, where even by anonymizing these telegram channels, because there are many of them, you know, overheard somewhere there others there, absolutely, news of this, news of this, and all this is very, very often dubious content, sometimes there are quite adequate, normal indeed. very prompt information, because this is exactly the answer, why telegram, for me, it seems to me it is obvious why telegram is ahead of all other social media, not only that 76% of people consume news from social media, but also 72 of these 76 are telegram itself, well , i think the answer is obvious, something

rattled outside the window, we turn on the smartphone right away, we see what has flown there, anxiety, do we need to go to the basement, is it flying or not flying, or could it just be training there, even, even so, and it just happens that in the middle of the night something rattles and you don’t you understand, it's on the tet, some kind of emission happened, or is it really some kind there is danger and you need to escape somewhere, of course, because they won't say anything about it there so promptly, but literally every second there is information in the telegram channel that don't worry, it's there, for example, some idiot fired a salute or something else, all you calmly go to sleep, instead of running from a high floor in slippers, but from blocking, yes, i mean that there is a benefit in telegram channels, which we cannot do anything, no one can oppose, on the other hand, mr. danilov is also right, because indeed, through these anonymous telegram channels , a lot of very strange , very dangerous, and simply quite

obvious russian information is thrown in, and it is simply even simply shaken. they see the recipe in the fact that it is necessary