[000:00:00;00] ukraine was not ready for nato, ukraine was not ready for the european union, this is absolutely obvious in the 90s, when everyone started their journey, their steps, their road to the european union, our partners, our friends from the east, central eastern europe, the baltic countries, they already said then that we want to join nato, and they knocked on this door for many years and knocked on nato with one hand, and the european union with the other, and they reached out and joined. and the ukrainians did not want to join, i always give this example, please remember the first month war, march 22, polls showed that ukrainians want to receive weapons, but ukrainians do not want to be members of nato, the war was already going on, and the majority of ukrainians said, no , we are not, it is not wrong, so at this moment, you must always understand, do

the poles have it, do the slovaks have it, do the ukrainians have it. do the americans have interests and press where our interests coincide, push through, quietly, intelligently, but put pressure on colleagues so that they say, you and i have common interests, let's work together, let's overcome it, it's about those polish , transporters, or beautiful farmers, we just have to say, we are losing, you are losing, let's put things in order, but here again the correct opinion is that, now is just such a time when there is no government, in fact, one government is leaving, the other is not yet was formed in poland, and that is why this is happening, there is no one to simply put this in order, then we will have a latin, latin american analytical center adastra, and we will talk about latin america, we will talk about, i

hope... that this mr. will be found, and they see me, they tell me that it already exists, so oleksiy otkidach, an expert on latin america of the analytical center adastra, i remember that i once studied latin, there was an edpera, an addastra, because of difficulties with the stars, and here i just see stars, they, they already, they already call themselves stars, good health , mr. oleksiy, thank you for taking the time for us, and we are now asking javier miley. who is he, what does he want, and i wouldn't even ask the question like that, there is a recipe for the recovery of argentina, i will say for the audience, i think you understand it better than me, argentina constant illness, once every 8-10 years they have such inflation that, well, it's terrible, they have constant crises, they have constant troubles, on the other hand, well, it's a beautiful country, very big

harvests. excellent meat, over the past 20 years they have learned to make wine, they dance tango , well, what else do you need, you have everything, crisis after crisis, crisis after crisis, there are recipes, please, mr. oleksiy, and good evening, well, adastra really about the stars, but if it were about the stars, our aspiration, our goals, if we talk about argentina and about the new president miley, indeed, argentina has a huge potential, a large territory, a lot of resources, various resources of agricultural, various minerals, and so on, and the problem is that for the last 20 years , representatives of the so-called kirchnerism, i.e. followers, were in power in argentina, the first president was nestor kirchner, then his wife kristina and then various people who were connected with them in one way or another. accordingly, their specificity was that they spent very large amounts of money

on various social obligations, subsidies medicine, transport subsidies, subsidies, education, and at the same time, if the conditions for the development of the economy in the country were unsatisfactory, there were no low taxes in order to attract investment, the relations between the government and business were, well, what is called murky, that is, you do not could freely invest in argentina in order for the economy to grow, and accordingly, indeed. you, you, you, you are somewhere, somewhere you are not there, mr. oleksiy, come back to us, now there is a connection, there will be a connection, but the answer is interesting, because in fact the answer is this, in argentina, either dictatorship and economic and financial order, or democracy and economic and financial chaos, i.e. either

some such semi-fascists, such peronists come, and yes , they have it in the best council of a peronist, there was such a peron, and that dictatorship, dictatorship simply military, but then the economy is more or less developing, inflation is less. let everything be a game, democrats, socialists come, everything, no, no, no one is put in prison , no one is killed, but then there is chaos in the economy, that's right, i understand you, mr. oleksiy, yes, to a large extent this is everyone's problem latin american countries, because, for example, for the neighbors of argentina, chile, the situation is absolutely similar, under moderate governments that were center-right, center-left, normal political protests that took place there during the last 30 years, after the dictatorship of pinnochet, and it was calm. there were no disappearances of people, there were no repressions, shootings, tortures, but the economy was in a certain stagnation, during the time of the north, whose regime was marked by very serious violations of human rights,

disappearances, all the things that we hate the soviet union, chile was happening under finachet, but the economy was galloping, it was developing at a crazy pace, and partly, more importantly, the new president of argentina would like to implement similar approaches in the economy that pinochet used in turn, it is about total liberalization of the market, privatization of everything possible , tax reduction, rejection or partial rejection of the national currency and transition to the us dollar. that's all, as the experts say, my god, argentina, maybe outside of argentina, these are rational steps of the new president argentina, this, the rejection of the national currency and the introduction of the american dollar, the burning of the national central...bank , which he promised, to burn just this institution, to burn, all this will somehow help the economy, the finances of this beautiful country,

as i said with the beautiful dancing, wine and meat, and dollarization, it has both supporters and opponents, because in latin america there are cases of successful dollarization of the economy, for example, panama, if i'm not mistaken, this is a country where the us dollar circulates and where economic situation plus-minus... stable and good, ecuador is also a country with a dollar economy, but the situation with the economy in ecuador is much worse, so dollarization is not, you know, such an alternative pill that solves all problems. regarding the burning of the national bank, in the words of mr. miley, it is even about a binamitar, to blow up, yes, to dynamite the national bank, then i think that this is a metaphor and it refers to fiscal discipline, reducing expenditures and increasing revenues to the budget, because you do not you can... increase spending, when you don't have revenue, if you don't have revenue, you can't fund all those programs, obligations that you have, and so his policies, first of all , about fiscal discipline, do they understand

what that is, you know , a fundamental problem, because in the 30s of the last century, argentina was in ninth place in the world according to economic indicators, it was a very successful country. and in ten years it falls, now it is somewhere in the 49th or 59th, in short, definitely not in the top ten, and well, there are different thoughts, why this happened, but it says to me that this is something even deeper than the central bank of argentina, even deeper than dollarization or pesosification, you can say, i don't know, okay, it's just that somewhere there, somewhere there is a huge some kind of problem that does not give development to this country, i think that at the moment , if the first task that miley would have to face would be exactly how to limit inflation, because inflation in argentina reached 140% in certain months, and this is terrible numbers, we are at

war, with the blockade of the whips, with the spare parts of the carriers in poland there partially in slovakia, we have inflation of the order of 40% there. this is a very difficult situation, but imagine a country in which there is no war, in which all borders are open, in which completely all opportunities for trade with all its neighbors, with asian, african, european countries , and it lives in an economic situation that is three times worse than oil, and accordingly, after all, the first measures will obviously be aimed at inflation, and here we come to decisions, say restrictions on the activities of the central bank of argentina. then we are talking about systemic ones reforms, the rule of law, the fight against corruption, as well as what is required from ukraine, by the people of ukraine and for the integration of the european union. increase in technology, improvement in the quality of education, and also a huge number of systemic wholesale reforms, which is some kind of reaction of western, american intellectuals, you

mentioned chile, chile in the first years after chopinochet came to power, nothing good happened there with the economy, only when he turned to the americans, the chicago boys and boys, so -called, that's what it was called then, really the situation... began to improve and the economy really began to grow very quickly, according to the argentine partners, what the europeans say, what the americans say. such americans, they, well, relatively speaking, the stock exchanges reacted positively to the coming to power of this, er, libertarian? and i would say yes, because a large number of companies, international companies, of a large level have already announced, one way or another, that they are interested in investing in argentina, and accordingly, if there is political will, if the appropriate conditions are created, then i think that we will still see the results of these companies entering the argentine market. if we talk about argentina's partners, the specific

situation is that the previous presidents, they built a line of alliances, let's say with players from all over the pedological field, that is, with those who profess that more left-wing politics with big expenses and so on, and now argentina with a fundamentally new president, a fundamentally new foreign policy risks to a certain extent remaining isolated in relation to its neighbors, respectively, such friends of argentina is: for all european countries and the united states, including. thank you very much, oleksiy odkidach, expert on latin america, adastra think tank, we talked about argentina, we hope to talk with him again, maybe not tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, but someday, because it really attracts, at least argentina attracts my attention, i always it is interesting what is happening on the opposite side of the globe, now there will be an advertisement, and then we will talk about today, about the famine, about the anniversaries and so on and so forth similar, but anyway, let's look at

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is german. in the joints and muscles, oops, it returns, pain in the joints and muscles, natural matz with comfrey from dr. thais, ask in pharmacies good day pharmacy and one social pharmacy, methy with comfrey 100 g with a 20% discount, good again hello, my name is mykola veresen, as i promised, we will now talk about the holodomor, which we celebrate today, maksym vischyk, legal advisor of the global rights foundation, compliance, teacher of people's law of the kyivominsk academy. good health, mr. maxim, thank you for finding time for us, thank you very much, and i have a question for you, and it is, you know, cynical, i would say, no, no, not very good, it is the question, not these days, it would have to be found some other day, but i have already started formulating it and already...' i formulated, during the time since independence in

1991 there were 3 million victims, then five, then seven, then 10, now something else, something, where did this competition come from at all, the impression is that we, us, us, us, us, many ukrainians like, the more, the better, some kind of showing off, and not for 10, 12 died, it somehow makes us... somehow so cool or, i just can't understand why we are constantly discussing this already a lot, it's been 30 years, more than 30, there is a debate, how many victims were there, i don't believe that you can't find a single one, approximately, obviously approximately, we will never know for sure, the number of victims, what do you think, congratulations, sir mykola, thanks for the question, and i should start with the fact that the question is really...

number of victims, this is rather a question for historians, who are evaluated by the appropriate methodology, and we can see how it changes, varies over time, and we as lawyers have only one answer to this, to establish the crime of genocide, the number of victims does not matter, the number of victims is not decisive in order to establish that genocide was committed , what matters is who the victims were, although, of course, a significant number of victims may indicate genocidal intent, that is, the intent to destroy a group in our case, a national of the ukrainian group, but much more importantly, who were the people who suffered, and in the context of the famine, we see that peasants, farmers. as one of the pillars of the nation, as those who had the greatest potential for nation-building, as those who buried national traditions, were most affected by this crime, and this is the main legal argument why we talk about the holodomor as a crime of genocide, historians can discuss the number of victims, we as lawyers

claim that there is no number of victims decisive mr. maxim, look, an important point, i imagine, even. benevolent ones, well, it’s hard to imagine, but as i’m straining there i can imagine benevolent russians, demographers, historians, sociologists, and who will also want to understand, but when we talk about genocide, you said this phrase yourself, the group will pull it out right away pockets, and there are not only ukrainians, he is ivan ivanovich ivanov from the kharkiv region, he is russian, and not only peasants, but he was koval there, he is not a peasant, he is a worker, so that is not all then, there were no genocides, here i was trying to understand how i had a polemic with the deputies, i was quarreling with ukrainians when i said that do not accuse today,

at this moment, when the war just started, of genocide, because proving genocide is very it's difficult, an aggressive war can be proven in 15 seconds, and genocide is a bunch of documents, evidence that people with ukrainian citizenship were persecuted in buch, in buch, they persecuted people, and is this a sign of genocide, because they will say it again, but there were poles, and there were jews, and they were also killed, a there were such and such, well, in short, let's explain to our, our public, what to do with this genocide? yes, let's start from the basics, so when we talk about genocide in the legal dimension, not in the political one, when we, for example, hang labels on this or that side, or on this or that state, genocidal in the legal dimension is a limited crime , which is clearly defined by the genocide convention and our criminal code, and it provides only five,

a list of five prohibited acts that are committed with the intent to destroy in whole or in part four protected groups, so four protected groups. it is national, ethnic, religious or racial, and the five prohibited acts are murder, causing grievous harm, creating deadly conditions for life, preventing childbearing or transferring children from one group to another. and it is important for us to always say, first of all, which group we are talking about. when the convention was drawn up, it expressly excluded any other groups than the four i have named, that is, the political or economic or social classes not protected by the convention, so indeed, some people may argue... that because the soviets , the soviet union, tried to destroy a certain class or a certain political class, they focused only on it, but this is also one of the myths that is widespread, particularly among western countries , which will stop the recognition of the holodomor as a genocide, but in ours, it is precisely our role, as

ukrainian historians, lawyers, activists , to explain to the west, the western audience and any foreign audience, the context in which we live, and the author of... the term genocide, raphael lemkin, when talking about the famine, he did not consider it in isolation, as a crime in itself, he argued that the soviet campaign of russification of ukrainians was genocidal as a whole, he saw several elements in it, and it is important that these elements focused on ukrainians as a national community, not ethnically, the soviet union could have behaved adequately with ukrainians who practiced folklore or spoke ukrainian. yes, something happened, we have something at the end of the program, we can't hear you, now, oh, now we hear, great, thank you, mr. maxim, the blame has returned to us, yes, so the soviet union tried to target the potential of ukrainians to create a nation, and when we talk

about a nation, a nation is different from an ethnic group, it is not only a category measured by a common language or culture, a nation is something more, it is people united by a common vision of the future , and the past by common political ideals, and that is why lemkin said that when destroying the ukrainian nation through russification, the soviet union primarily aimed at three pillars: the first is the brain of the nation, it is the intelligentsia, intellectuals and artists, the second is the soul of the nation, its spiritual guidance that is, the pro-ukrainian clergy, and the third is the actual body of the nation, it is the peasants, farmers who were the bearers of the national potential, the potential to create a nation, therefore lemkin did not consider the holodomor in isolation, he believed that the plague was only one of the ways to destroy the potential of ukrainians to create a nation and to do and thus made it possible to create a soviet person from them, faceless, who will not have a national identity, who will clearly follow what the soviet union claims. so when we look at it from this perspective, from the perspective of how not only the holodomor, but more broadly, soviet terror

was integrated into one picture, we see that we then come to the definition of a national group in the first place, and the last point here, international jurisprudence asserts that the perpetrators of genocide may be guided by different motives, they may seek to achieve political gain or economic gain, or subjugate a certain category of the population, but all motives do not exclude the intent to destroy, which means that the perpetrators may seek to destroy national group, but additionally having a political motive to remove it as intra-class enemies or, for example, an economic threat, so this motive does not automatically exclude the intention to destroy the national group. and one more point, consciousness plays a role, because i can fully assume that such crazy soviet people were there, well, 90%, 99, and stalin came up with such a thing for himself, let's somehow ethi hahlo all those

hahlov will kill us all, he doesn't care he didn't say, he thought like that and then gave the order, and the executors, if they were, well, us we need bread, we need bread here, and the khokhlovs have bread, to hell with it, let's take it away from them, they didn't see the consequences, because when there is a criminal trial, always... did you understand what the consequences were, and if you understood, it's one thing, if no, if you didn’t understand, then it’s not your fault, it’s up to you , god forbid, to what extent this moment of understanding the consequences can influence any decisions regarding genocide, three points are important here, the first is genocidal intent, as you noted in criminal law, involves that the performer must seek to destroy the group is not sufficient merely to the executor... acted with intent, with the knowledge that the group may suffer, he should have sought this result and acted with this goal in mind.

the second is that genocidal intent can exist at many levels, it can be the level of direct actors, that is , those who act, for example, on the battlefield or directly kill, torture or harm human living conditions, it can be the level of their command , or it can be the military-political leadership in general, and therefore these levels exist independently, maybe be a moment when military-political. the leadership had the intention to destroy the group, but it was brought to the lower executors in such a way that they did not realize that they were destroying the group, and then the military-political leadership would be responsible for the executors of no link, but the third important point, we we evaluate genocide and the intention to destroy a group from two perspectives, both subjective and objective, the objective assumes that the existence of a group, for example, a nation, is a fact that cannot be denied, the establishment of a nation is a question about language, culture. political ideals, what exists in the objective dimension , the subjective dimension implies that every time we establish the existence of genocide or

deny it, we look at, firstly, how the victims thought, and secondly , about how the criminals thought, firstly, for example, if the victims considered themselves part of a national group, but the criminals considered them as such, and at the same time destroyed them anyway, this can also be considered genocide, and vice versa, when the victims did not consider themselves a part groups, they in general distanced itself from it, the criminals instead said, we see you through this prism, we believe you are to be destroyed, and thus we will destroy you, so it is often necessary to look at how the perpetrators of crimes subjectively evaluated those they attacked and the group as a whole, yes, i just told you, i thought about it, this is some , this is some kind of situation with that mr. putin , who, according to his logic, is the following, it is both ridiculous and sinful, it is certainly a sad story. but when he says we are one people, then i think this and this means for him that we are

we have the right to kill you, because you are not another people, we have to kill our own people, we can kill, we can not kill, and since we are one people, well, we can kill you too, because this is one people, very very strange, the next question, it may not be exactly to the address, to the address, but i apologize, mr. maksym, can you just share your thoughts on this matter with us, why, because i did not believe, i had access to various spetskhrahrans , of the special special security for such closed libraries were called, and there i am my wife, she had the opportunity to get here, and she brought it to me, you couldn't bring anything, you could copy it in a notebook, but you couldn't take it out, take a photo, and there was no multi-use technology at that time in sovietsky, when she came and talked about what and what cannibalism, which , i said, no, well, listen, well, it's obvious that

the soviet union is, sorry for the dirty word, but not quite like that. well, well, cannibalism , well, come on, it’s probably true here that these western radio voices are lying, here they are lying, but not here, well, it’s clear that it was bad anyway, and they shot and killed, and probably there was a famine, but not such a famine that people ate each other, well, now we know all this, so this is my question, this trauma of the 33rd year, are we carrying it? still, don't we already carry it, that's how much it is, it's passed down in generations , and i'm lucky, i always say that i'm a freak and my father is a freak and my grandfather is a freak, because they didn't fall under collectivization, how did you study it , you know, before that there was the so-called sell-out, just

taxed so high that the only thing a person could to do, that’s all to sell the house, the cow, the horse, everything, but he was not shot, and in the 29th year they were sold off, and he moved from the village to the luhansk region, as far as i remember, he was a kaval, he was taken to the factory , at the factory it was simply nirvana, because a kilogram of bread a day per worker, a dependent, he had five children at my grandfather's, that's another 2.5 km, then 3.5 kg per family is impossible after death, yes, you didn't eat meat or sausages there, so you feel that this trauma lies somewhere, somewhere, inside ukrainians, please no doubt, there are objective studies on this, which claim that the most serious international crimes, especially genocide, have an impact on the victims directly, and then on the generations that come, and this is the horror

of the crime of genocide, he puts on ... patient individuals, the crazy brand that is passed down from generation to generation, is passed down, is the trauma that follows, the trauma, and the fear of going through something like this for your descendants, and this is actually, in addition to the trauma, it is also a potential for us as ukrainians of the new generation, to see in a new way, the russian crimes that are happening now, we all have full awareness of how bloodthirsty the soviet regime was, we understand better what the purpose of the russian is now, it is too early for us to say that the crime of genocide is present, it can be proven or disproved in our context, but we clearly see how russian tactics have become only re-adapted soviet tactics, the same methodology, the same goal, only the armed forces of ukraine have prevented this from spreading to much larger

territory, therefore exile, the crime of genocide, like many international war crimes or crimes against humanity, is a terrible trauma... that generations will have to work with, but it is also about telling society the truth as it was, in order to debunk myths and in order to prevent anything like this in the future, so that society knows who it is dealing with and it is evil, how evil is reborn in the end, how it can return. thank you very much, maksym vischyk, legal expert of the global rights foundation, compplience, teacher of international of law, kyivoryan academy was in touch with us. thank you once again, mr. maksym, i will just add that really, when the fighting started, it was all near kyiv, i was in kyiv then, i was in kyiv for three weeks, the first, first weeks of the war, i was caught up, and if i had studied history more thoroughly, maybe i wouldn't have been taken aback, because killing people just like that, not because they are good or bad, but

just walking down the street and shooting and killing. there are no words. thank you for your attention, all the best, ladies and gentlemen, my name is mykola verysya, we i'll definitely see you tomorrow, and today, bye-bye. it's 7 p.m. in ukraine and we have a news release on the espresso tv channel in the studio of iryna koval. greetings to all viewers. ukraine needs more air defenses to protect its grain export routes. president volodymyr zelenskyy stated this at the international summit on food security. according to him, foreign partners will provide

warships to ukraine to ensure the safety of ships in grain. in the black sea.