[000:00:00;00] we have to point these out to them, that is, it may look somewhat anecdotal, but if you read now, for example, about student protests in various universities, the same, well, covering absolutely all problems with only lgbt rights or climate change, they say, is not all that is essential, it is essential climatic changes and everything else, and the guilt of the white man itself is absolutely proven, even when he talks about ukrainians, or their problems in the west, and so on, attention is constantly focused on the fact that they are said to be in some privileged position because of their skin color, somewhere it noticeably less, somewhere noticeably more, but even we now see any historiography or any attempt to contextualize the problems of the east and the west, it goes in this direction, we see

many sympathizers, and in fact... of the soviet union, we see now even in the united states, bin laden's sympathizers, which is hard to imagine, his death letter, written after the terrorist attacks of september 11, or there attributed to him , but distributed, that is, a generation has grown up that has forgotten all this, even the terrorist attack of september 11 has already been forgotten, and many things from the 90 -x, i a generation that is in completely different world orientations, worldviews, and well, when you do not come into contact with that direction, it seems that it cannot be like this, and here we see that people who are affiliated with significant universities, well, in essence carry such, you know , alternative science, which somewhere already reaches the level of the flat earth theory, is only possible on the other hand, mr. mykhailo, if we remember that in the 60s and 70s, all these european, at least universities, were centers of mooist ideology, and not only

students, but and respected teachers. in france or in germany were supporters of the ideas of mao zedong and the cultural revolution in china, then this can progress, what is happening compared to what was, perhaps, on the one hand, progress, but the way they looked at the fact that there was a revival of some kind of communist left ideology, now they see that they say the world needs a strong hand, well , let's not forget that the covid left an extremely strong trauma in the west, it left it in ukraine, but it was erased by the war, in the west... there is a lot of literature, research, covid studies, post-covid studies and so on, why? because, on the one hand, many people felt for the first time the pressure of the state, that is, the state is able to limit something, is able to do something, and on the other hand, they expected active actions from the state, and not from some transnational corporations, so when they see that somewhere a strong hand is growing, that somewhere some solutions are proposed, that somewhere

people like xi jinping are climbing out. or putin, they begin to realize that at a certain historical moment, under certain circumstances, these people are right, that is, they correspond to their time, and the west, which is constantly trying to impose some kind of democracy there, it will only lose and even, well, this propaganda, it is quite powerful, let's not forget the financial aspects, one of the main donors of european universities and american ones are, for example, qatar, a lot... saudi arabia invests, a lot is invested by china and russia through various proxies, a lot of programs are financed, and we are not only talking about technical industries, where they have a certain profit in the form of technological developments, which then they use it, including in the russian war against ukraine, they also invest in humanitarianism, to put it simply, to keep a certain degree of temperature in the ward and

even have the means to regulate it. just now these young people, they are still studying at universities, then they will graduate , then in 10 years, they will start going somewhere in politics, but they can change during this time, fortunately, people, people change, let's hope that they will change somehow your own views, because it is not given to you, mr. mykhailo, simply that all these, that the matter is not even therefore, the fact is that all these , i would say, horrors of the past, they simply appeared, because 75-80 years have passed since before the world war and the horror of war for the russians, who always said: oh, it would not be a lie there was a war, and then at some point a generation grew up that speaks, we can repeat, and the victims of the holocaust, when europeans felt themselves, by the way, responsible not only for colonialism, but for the holocaust, because it all happened not in africa and in asia, and this happened directly in europe, with many of these people, grandparents, directly

participants in the murder and robbery of their jewish neighbors, in every third, if we talk about the largest european countries , about france, germany, italy and so on, and now their great-grandchildren, they think that they are of no use here, and this table silver, it not jewish, but grandmother's. well, i know this well, not so long ago one of lotchik’s grandson luft wafe, apparently a member of the nssdap, told me how bad nato is and that apparently the ukrainians don’t want to go there, but the question is different, did these people feel their war, or did they feel their blame the poles before the jews, did the french feel their war, because not only nazi germany pursued such a harsh policy that ended in the holocaust, there are many examples of collaboration, collaboration and anti-semitism in neighboring countries, and let's not even forget about ukrainian injuries in this matter, which are not fully spoken, and many jewish researchers pay attention to this, that is why, if in germany, especially west germany in the 60s and 70s, and then in

the 80s, they lived with the guilt of the holocaust, then they lived by their responsibility for the unification of germany, they were scared there by chernobyl and the apocalypse in general , then, for example, in other countries, many people simply blamed the war on hitler and felt completely at ease, they say they organized it, and we have nothing to do here , well, russia, russian society, on the other hand, lived through this war constantly , that is, yes, they had a slogan so that there would be no such war, they are fighting now, in fact, under this slogan, that is, for them, this was a collective miracle, the russians kept this degree in the heads, for to use it in chechnya at the right moment. in georgia and another. western societies, on the contrary, tried to get rid of it, to forget it, and just as we , for example, forgot the first world war, we had many participants in the first world war, but soviet propaganda did not emphasize it, that

the russian empire almost lost it, but emphasized attention to the second world war, we have erased it from our collective memory, we don't even have monuments to talk about ukraine in the first world war. the european one is the same the european su society wanted to clean it up, the german case, it may be a little different, but there the french, the british , so they say hitler is bad, he did it all, he started the war, and we together, they say, with stalin, then we won all that , preserved civilized humanity, this is all in the past, well, here, when it affects the present, there are people who, relatively speaking, have zero immunity to any revival of nazism or communism there, they teach them critical theory, and under in the form of critical... theory even now once again, you can even vaporize the flat earth theory, because if you don't see its roundness, then it means that you are already thinking critically, and that's why here in the political plan we have a lot of things that,

frankly, can be considered already in the future , you know, there is something freudian there, for example, in relation to the new mental nervousness of western society, but we will have to live with it and work with it, too. there is probably no other way out, thank you sincerely, thank you, mykhailo yakubovych, orientalist, researcher of the university of freiburg, germany, was with us, we are going to take a short break now, then we will come back and continue, we will talk about the main topics of the week, stay with us, problems with the suglobos limit the movement, it is unpleasant and painful, strengthen them with the help of debt. joints are bags with collagen and vitamin c to restore articular cartilage. doolgitis contributes to the normal functioning of the joints and has a positive effect on the health of the bones. dolgid joints will improve motor functions. keep your joints moving

free. on december 10, i will visit lviv. st. nicholas writes letters to nicholas in his own persona in maryana savka's christmas musical. orchestra of lviv kapela duda. and favorite soloists in a festive performance for the whole family. on december 10 , live sound will be broadcast exclusively. for black friday, eva buys a supply of cosmetics, and also a supply of impressions from megago. 50% on hundreds of channels, thousands of movies and sports. meego turn on discounts. dear friends, we are back on the air, this is the saturday political club, this is vitaly portnikov, this is lesya vakulyuk, we are glad to see you and let's continue, today we started with reality , with the topic of the holodomor, and one way or another, even with mr. mykhailo, we still

remembered stalin and everything that was happening in the world and with ukraine, in particular in those times, who have not yet lit up today, by the way candle of memory, you can put on the windowsill and remember all those ukrainians, millions of ukrainians, and in this way honor their memory and thus show solidarity, show that you, that we remember this, that's why you learned about it, by the way, about the memorial candle, no, about the famine, about hunger it was the 90s, huh, and i remember that my grandmother, i had a teacher of ukrainian language and literature, who was in favor of such ukrainian literature, and not the one prescribed by the party, and in the early 90s, she learned that they will show a documentary about the holodomor, somewhere in the people's house, i am from khodrov, such a small town in the lviv region, and she took me there. and i was

shocked by those shots, i was about 10 years old at the time, probably, i don't know if it would be said now that it's traumatic for a child, but in fact, i was very grateful to my grandmother that she showed it to me, and then, later on, she let me read ulas samchuk maria, one book was for the whole city and it passed between schools, several schools and everyone reread the book, i find it strange that even in independent ukraine, it was just some background event in the 90s, of course. that is, they only discovered it for themselves, and then i remember when i was already working as a journalist, correspondent in kyiv, and it was amazing that in kyiv i still had to prove to some politicians that it was the holodomor, that it was an artificial famine arranged by russia, and ukrainians were destroyed, i have known about it since the 70s, and it is amazing that i was told this in the family circle, my aunt, who was a lawyer in soviet times, she was just starting your legal practice, you know how it happens there after law school.

and she was sent to the village, uh , for verification, cases of cannibalism, during the famine, and she saw all this, she, because she was such a principled soviet person, she did not give any evaluations, it was in general her manner of communication with me, she did not give assessments, if she started to give assessments, they were correct assessments, the general line of the party, but she reported facts that we had in some soviet publications, for me it was always strange, i always could not to understand the meaning of this education, but it was like that, on the one hand, she did not want to tell herself what the state in which she lived and worked in was, on the other hand, she knew it and wanted to, for me to know it, it was like not strangely, the struggle with... with herself, like an internal struggle that she wanted to transfer

to the child, so that the child would know the truth, and therefore , strangely enough, i knew everything about the famine, and by the way, the famine became the delayed cause of the death of seven her aunt, her parents, her younger sister, already during the nazi occupation, why? because her parents refused to evacuate from cherkasy, she convinced them to evacuate, they also told me that the hitlerites would come and simply destroy all the jews, her father said, little girl, listen, the soviet newspapers wrote about how flourishing soviet ukraine was in the 1930s, there were corpses of peasants who came from the surrounding forces, people were dying of hunger, there was a catastrophe and

a tragedy before our eyes, how can you believe such a press. what does it matter what they say about the germans, they are liars and murderers, i will not go anywhere, because i do not believe them, and it is also a tragedy, by the way, that a person who did not believe the soviet press to the extent that he was ready for it not to believe, when she basically told the truth, and as a result paid for it with her life, not every person of jewish origin could have grown up, but my grandmother's parents, my aunt was my grandmother's older sister, could...' thus the famine overtook them in the form of a holocaust, precisely because the atmosphere itself was so terrible, and i was surprised in those 70s in the 1980s, it was impossible to talk about it, and secondly, no one talked about it. the situation with the holocaust was a little different, we tried to talk about it, we were silenced, in schools, because my teachers in schools

simply did not allow the old times, right? they allowed it, but the soviet union won, but it was not possible, let's say that jews died in babenomura, it was taboo, soviet people, no jews, jews are nationalism, you are just an agent of zionism, there is no meaning, what is the difference , these are all soviet people, which means that the holocaust was in principle kept silent by the state, and they preferred not to talk about the holodomor, the people themselves , that is, there was such a thing, it was scary, obviously people talked, maybe in some family household circle, intra-national, there were circles, circles.. . i could not have known about it since i was not a person of ukrainian origin, i imagine that in ukrainian families, when they gathered and locked the doors, just as in jewish families they gathered and locked the doors, they could talk, maybe not water, but they just knew that here, in principle, all people have the same problems and memory, so they could

talk about it, but when we say, i think my classmates never talked to me about it, maybe they talked about it by their parents, but their parents told them, only please don't tell about it in don't tell about it to the teacher, god forbid someone tell, because about some jewish problems, about anti-semitism in the soviet union, i also knew that you shouldn't talk when you leave the apartment, you left from the apartment, there is a dangerous area, mr. vitaly, but if in the early 90s , even people who survived the holodomor, or the descendants of those who survived the holodomor, denied it, i think that in soviet times they definitely did not say, because it was scary, well, some spoke, some didn't, there have always been people, believe me, and the ukrainian environment is strong because of them, as well as any other nation. environment in the empire so that there were always people who remembered it and talked about it among themselves, it's just obvious that it wasn't a mass, but there was another point that distinguishes the holodimor from the holocaust, what do you understand, the holocaust is over, people, who were participants in the holocaust, they were

punished, they were taboo, they were pure evil and there was no doubt that you did not walk the same streets with them, if you suddenly met a person who was a participant in the destruction of your relatives there and so on, you knew in principle that this person was a criminal, that he was hiding there and was afraid, and what happened to the organizers of the holodomor, they remained close to you, the system, the institution, what are they came to power, they, they remained in power, well, someone was shot, of course, but those who were not shot, they had no problems, that is, you actually lived in the same state as your executioners, and these executioners were considered respected people. and this was an additional problem fright another injury. of course, because you actually continued to be in a repressive state. and the people who, in principle , could have been participants in these repressions, were the heroes of this state. that's all the time, what i

'm trying to explain is that by and large this is soviet ukraine or soviet russia in general, it was the people's republic of the people's republic of china, the bandits just took too much. the territory of the government, you should not think that it was such an ordinary state, i don't know what modern ukraine or some modern france is like, only more repressive, no, that's not true, it was just a bunch of bandits and the bolsheviks were a bunch of bandits, and there is no need for any illusions that they simply managed to seize power, as pushilin and pasichnikov got power from putin, and putin himself seized power in russia with his chekists, this has nothing to do with the institution. institutions work exclusively as a tool of repression, and the people who are in these institutions are also people with a criminal psyche, and this was also an additional such moment, and i think that this is what we are saying, as far as this trauma still does not allow

the ukrainian people develop, i think it's a very serious thing, i don't think it's all over. in principle, i believe that the ukrainian people after the cold war are a completely different nation, and to the great happiness of the ukrainian people, they joined soviet ukraine, the territory where all this did not exist, western ukraine and volyn, and people who were in these territories, they did not live with such a traumatized psyche, you know what surprised me, i am from the west of ukraine and when i came to kyiv and said: people, the holodomor, it is so terrible, ukrainians died, so very often my colleagues, who are from kyiv region or somewhere further east, said, well, what’s the matter here , but nothing, well, it was just not a good harvest, they didn’t accept it, i said, how can you not accept it, well, look, you , it always happens with traumatized nations, by the way

, the same story with the holocaust, european jewry is deeply traumatized by the holocaust, a traumatized nation, there were simply jews in the united states of america. and jews who lived in israel, who did not experience it, and these are essentially different experiences, people who then came to israel from europe, they experienced all this completely differently than people of the same jewish origin who did not live with it, because if you visited auschwitz or your relatives all died there, you have a different consciousness, and the same here, imagine that you are a descendant of a family that... survived the famine, what should you do, i'll tell you, on march 5 , 1953, my aunt's husband. the other sister, the one i am telling you about, he is a ukrainian from a ukrainian village that survived

the famine, from a rich family that was dispossessed, died, he barely saved his life, because he fled to kyiv, and he learns about stalin's death, huh. in his little room on mykhailivsky provolok in the center of kyiv, he turns on the gramophone, puts on a record with dance music , he was a chorister, a dancer in the theater there, and starts dancing, dancing, because he has a happy day, while everything ... everyone sobs for a show , yes, everyone sobs, not for a show, well, some for a show, and some, some for a show, someone, most people sob not for

a show, the whole city sobs, this is reality, people they gather around the postman and cry, he dances, my girlfriend, whom i told you about, a communist, comes to her sister, comes in, sits on the sofa and watches him dance, and does not say anything, because she understands everything, she does not say to him: god, how can you. to dance on such a day, she is silent, because she realizes the depth of his trauma, and she realizes that now the happiest day has come, his life, here 's a story about trauma, ugh, and i, he managed, so he managed to survive this trauma , because he hated all these people who took away the normal life of his family, but there were people who could not survive it, there were no such life forces, there was no such feeling of hatred, and why can i analyze it

precisely through these family stories, because i saw these people, people who experienced all this, people, i saw it not at the intersection of these two tragedies, you know, in the family there were relatives who survived the holodomor and relatives who survived the holocaust, and i saw how these two actually traumatized nations unite there in the same family...er, relationship, and how much these people, you know, i, how they feel, someone lost people to hunger, and parents and brothers and sisters, and someone lost people to the holocaust five years later, and then people live in this soviet place, where you ca n't to mention it, these are the biggest events of their lives, most importantly, these are national traumas, these are everyday traumas, these are theirs. as children, in principle, the state should do everything possible to help them come to them, to

rethink the memory, and it says, no, shut up, shut up, shut up, and in fact memory begins to be reinterpreted only by their great-grandchildren or grandchildren who were not direct witnesses of the tragedy when we have independence , but in independence, in the times of independence , independence comes, i don't think that there would be any person who could not i know, laughing at the holocaust, denying it, because officially you couldn't do that, you couldn't laugh and deny it, but you also couldn't mention it, it's also an interesting opposition, nobody denied denying the holocaust, on the other hand, you could to tell in soviet propaganda, the story that the holocaust was arranged by the zionists together with the ukrainian nationalists, there was a wonderful little book that was published in dnipropetrovsk, this publishing house of rays, was called soyuz. the trident and the star of david, i read it, i wrote a competition paper so specifically about that, i wrote about all these books of anti-zionist

propaganda of the uguladavyh, their contents, i was just very interested, and i found such a book where you talked about how the zionists came to an agreement with by ukrainian nationalists about the holocaust, well, they just said that they were ukrainians, they needed them in order to destroy as many jews as possible, so that the jews reached israel and they could not be destroyed, and they agreed with the ukrainian nationalists that they would destroy them, and the ukrainian nationalists agreed with the hitlerites, a very simple theory, so i remembered it, because i think, well , it turns out that we, we ourselves are to blame for all this, it turns out, so it's like the ukrainians are also to blame for the famine, because somehow they didn't grow as much bread as much as they wanted, the communist party, and then they didn't want to eat, and we remember that this holodomor, by the way, is also interesting. history, he is also

the second secretary of the central committee of the party when he was organized, there was a huge distrust of the soviet leadership of ukraine. the head of the dnipropetrovsk party organization at that time, mendel hatayevich, was shot by such a katerinoslav jewish boy , in his place the russians put postyshev, who was sent from russia, who was the main guide of the whole story, because they did not trust the natives of ukraine, not even of ukrainian origin, stanislav kasior was a pole, the first secretary of the central committee of the party at that time, they still did not trust him, because somehow there were too many familiar ukrainians, and postoshev did not have anyone he knew, he came as if from abroad, and therefore he could conduct the whole process completely calmly this policy, according to the way he carried it out, he was transferred to russia and shot, well, as it happens with the organizer of mass crimes, that he knew too much, but what was another interesting moment, forget about

the incredible, i would say priceless... turn events in principle, stalin decided to destroy all the organizers, not the organizers, but the executors of the holodomor. ugh. postesheva, chairman of the central committee of the party stanislav kosir, chairman of the council of people's commissars, vlas chubar, other representatives of the country's party leadership, chairman of the presidium of the ukrainian ssr hryhoriy petrovsky, in whose honor dnipropetrovsk was named, who signed all these decrees, in general, which led to the famine, well, formally, but he signed, of course, he did not destroy just because petrovsky literally ran away, this is a famous story, he simply ran away from stalin, being a candidate of the learned politburo, moved to an illegal position, well, he was a person with a large illegal past, a former

member of the state duma there, katorzhanyn, and here he is on the brink of repression, it is not known where , with some of his acquaintances, somewhere in the deaf, and then all his life he worked as a farmer in the museum of the revolution in moscow, when he was already asleep and his children were shot, it seems, as always happens, but he saved himself and even lived to be awarded the title of hero socialist work, already conceived khrushchev as an old bolshevik, but this is the only exception , in ukraine three central committees of the party were destroyed, one after the other, people were elected to the central committee and everyone was shot after that, all of them, we don’t even know some of the leaders of ukraine at that time , because there are no photos of them, so as not to testify, well, that was just the time before the reformation of the apparatus, ugh, and, so as not to testify, there were probably also different motives, but in the 60s, the restoration of socialist legality and rehabilitation began, so somehow i found myself, let's say, on the avenue

thyme at some point in its life. and nearby were the streets of kosioro, zatonskyi, other soviet bolsheviks, postyshev, it generally became an icon of soviet ukraine, books, biographies, films, that is, as part of the rejection of the cult of stalin and the debunking of stalinist repressions, people were added to the soviet iconostasis who were direct participation in the destruction of the ukrainian people, and this was presented under the guise of restoring justice, so if you want to rehabilitate your loved ones there, your cultural figures of one or another, what you should take as the main thing is to rehabilitate the party figures, who in fact carried out all these criminal decisions, very often were the engine of this whole human-hating movement, and this

was always such a disaster for me as well. and of course this page of participation in the famine, it was silenced. ugh. no one ever talks about it, there was no famine, there was no , of course, that's why they were fiery revolutionaries who had monuments and who were much better than stalin and his guards, because they shot them, repressed them, and about the fact that some bandits killed others, well, there was no need to talk about that, as you remember, the whole of kyiv was renamed in fact, after the names and surnames of these people, in fact, this kyiv itself was a monument restoration, socialist legality, as a monument to khrushchev from the league, but in fact, these were the names of cats, and we only began to get rid of these names little by little in the 90s, we did not get rid of all of them, but remember, it was very , for a very long time, and it also to some extent created