tv [untitled] November 25, 2023 8:30pm-9:01pm EET
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there was such a catastrophe, and of course, this page of participation in the holodomor , it was hushed up, ugh, no one ever talks about it, there was no holodomor, there was no, of course, that's why they were fiery revolutionaries who had monuments, and who were much better than stalin and his guards, because they shot them, repressed them, and about the fact that some bandits killed others, well, there was no need to talk about that, the whole of kyiv as...' congratulations, was, renamed , in fact, to the names and surnames of these people, in fact, it was kyiv itself a monument to restoration, socialist legality, a monument to khrushchev's thaw, and in fact, these were the names of the executioners, and only in the 90s did we begin to get rid of these names bit by bit, we didn't get rid of all of them, remember, it was very for a very long time, and this also to some extent created in people some
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misunderstanding of reality, misunderstanding of the scale of what happened, therefore, when president yushchenko already initiated all these real changes in the historical memory of the state, practically the entire party of regions, except for two deputies who were from lviv and that's why they didn't laugh, yes, they were afraid that they would come here, it was taras chornovi, hanna herman, we even remember who it was, they. voted against the clear definition of the holodomor, i would say, because viktor yanukovych believed that such a definition , firstly, quarrels ukraine with russia, and secondly distances ukraine from russia, and that's all, but now you can hear from ukrainians, and what that yushchenko did, carried on with his famine? i often hear this, i listen to it, it is also clear, i think that. basically, i can't say
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that i was an ardent supporter of president viktor yushchenko when he was president , because i also expected more concrete and clear actions from him in terms of reforming the country, but each person can do what he can do, what viktor yushchenko tried to change the attitude of ukrainians towards their, i would say, national memory, this is a huge revolution in consciousness, in principle, when you sow such seeds, they later give... the result is not immediately in education, and in the way the media is treated to those or others problems, and in the fact that such a real attitude to the tragedy arises, imagine again the jewish people who do not want to mention the holocaust, or say, listen, let's not worsen relations with germany, it is important for us to build with them, we need to live , of course, and we need it now.
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good relations with everyone, and the germans will probably be offended, what does this mean, we will say that they are responsible, they should repent, my god, we will quarrel with them, this is a serious european state, imagine to yourself, what would modern israel look like, in general , would modern israel be like this with such an attitude to its own history, then extrapolate it to the holodomor, by and large, the holodomor is one of the fundamental events in the history of the ukrainian people, because there is not even the number is significant firstly that it was millions of people and secondly that it was an artificial history, in many nations the great famine is the foundation of national consciousness, i remember that i was in dublin until the moment while there there was a museum of the great famine, then, i thought came the next time, i think this museum was already built, a museum that
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is remembered not only by its exposition, but by the monument near the museum, when there are people who are hungry, everything is perfectly done there, it's like this in fact, there is also a variation of our girl nearby, the museum is starving, but there are several people from the tortured, scary faces, and when you see it, you perceive the history of the irish people in a completely different way with all the traumas, you begin to understand a lot about the irish, something that you could not understand in principle, but you a foreigner, but imagine an irishman: for whom this story suddenly does not exist , it is a fundamental story, the great famine, but this great famine, one way or another, was connected with the negligence of the british government, with a lack of understanding of the scale of the problem, but that is, there was no, no
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was deliberate, of course, in london no one gathered and did not say, let us, with hunger, there we just tried somehow not and did not pay attention to it, and did not understand what it would lead to, and this attitude towards ireland as some kind of there, conditionally saying the territory is not like that, like britain, you can talk about all this, and this is also a trauma, but the irish at least know that the british government did not plan their destruction, deliberately, well, it did not go to war in the same way as russia, and of course, it does not want to go and i wouldn't go, because it was a complicated relationship between these two peoples, they can be compared to the relationship between russians and ukrainians, but one way or another, one way or another, this is a slightly different story, and here we understand that we are talking about an artificial one. and we are talking about the leadership of democratic russia in the 90s, right? gave up communism, why can't you tell the truth that the communist government, the bolshevik government went for the artificial destruction of the ukrainian people for one reason or another , political, economic, social,
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choose which ones you like better, in the end, make them for yourself principally, no, we cannot do it for one simple reason, because then we would have no reason to hope for it. that we will return you in our obi to the safe haven, and therefore we will pretend that you and i have the same fate, in we also had a famine in the volga region, and you had a famine, well, this is simply the result of the careless agrarian policy of the bolshevik government, well , first of all, this is also not true, all these famines that were in russia itself, it was also not only the result of negligence, and the result of the punishment of the peasantry, which, although it was not the base for the bolsheviks , considered the proletariat, which was in the minority, to be their base. i do not represent, but i am sure that she has
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to rule the country, because it is the dictatorship of the proletariat, that is, the dictatorship of the overwhelming majority, the minority, how many of these workers in the russian empire at the moment when the bolsheviks come to power 3%, five, what to do with 95% of the population to subjugate, take bread, buy it at those prices, which we like, forcing them to give us grain, of course, we really need ukraine , because it is the main agricultural territory of the russian empire, and therefore we have to intimidate them as much as possible there, and if they still have some national consciousness, which has to become an excuse for their separation, and then... we will have to buy bread from them, and not take it, well, that's it in general, god himself ordered them to starve, and therefore the misunderstanding of this simple thing on the part of the russians does not surprise me, but it does surprise me , that we had a lot of compatriots with you who wanted
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to live in the same narrative, and this for years for me, i will say from childhood, it was also a certain psychological trauma for me that i cannot talk about it, that these people. who, unlike me, have real victims in their families, it's from the famine, or they don't want to know about it, and it's really amazing, i, i don't blame these people again, i blame the very state that created such opportunities for people to feel that way, if ukrainians didn't start talking about the holodomor, about what it was like, if some movements had not started at the legislative level, to recognize the holodomor , would ukrainians have defended the country on february 24, or would they have gone to defend it, i think that this is, first of all, part of the national - the second is another very important question, which should also be, from this one
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point of view will be overestimated, this is what you talked about in the beginning in the first minutes of our program, the question of dignity, there was always the idea that this famine is when people just die and do nothing, historians, it started, before things from the researches of volodymyr vyatrovich, that the institute of national remembrance proved that we are talking about a total rebellion, the state that organizes such a crime always has a great desire to present its victims as cattle, ugh, even so, even you made it a crime, but look at them, they were just dying, who what? people, that's why they they can die, but they are the worse kind, so they are, this is also an important point, we started talking about the uprising about a series of peasant uprisings in ukraine, the fact that the ukrainian peasants, they resisted their oppressors, and this is also
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a very important point about which it must be said, by the way, then the hitlerites will do the same, they will silence the uprising, the warsaw ghetto uprising, because for them the idea was that they simply take people and put them in gas chambers, ugh, and also then it took years of historical studies to show that there was serious resistance to everything. this was still here, but again the hitlerites disappeared in 1945 and then all this could be told as a narrative for years. the story of the warsaw uprising became a myth literally in 1945, and what happened to the peasant uprisings during the famine, they were silenced until 1995, approximately, if not later, they did not exist, and this is also a very important moment, so many years have passed. from 30 there in the third year, imagine, uh, 60 years, and
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there were almost no witnesses left, people who are witnesses can tell you about the famine, and not about the uprising, because the participants of the uprising were simply all destroyed, and this is also a very important moment, and by the way, i am not saying that it is already a very important moment that we know we faced in this war with new attempts to organize a famine, and on a much larger scale, i have to say that putin started a larger-scale person than stalin. stalin was interested in this internal history, he was also ready to sell grain, ukrainian grain abroad, and get paid for it money, to continue building the enterprise. putin wants to cause hunger in the world, ban the sale of ukrainian grain, raise grain prices in the world , provoke a crisis, provoke migration problems, he has large-scale tasks, he is ready, i would say, to kill half of africa and half of asia for his political goals, but he also prevents
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african countries, no, of course, he does not want to be directly responsible for this, but do you remember that they started negotiations about the zord corridor only when when in africa they began to say that russia would be responsible for the african famine, until the moment they believed that they would be able to make ukraine responsible, they remained silent. and they were just preparing this famine, and then they realized that they would have external political consequences, and they began to say it out loud, so that it is all absolutely obvious, and when our institutions say that putin wants to organize an artificial famine in ukraine, i think that this is an absolutely legitimate conclusion, not only hunger, but cold.
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the destruction of the opportunity to live normally is all the punishment of the population, the holodomor was by and large a punishment whose goal was not just to reduce ukraine demographically, although this is also a goal, this is also a goal that stalin had and putin has, but here to subdue, yes and also to humiliate and intimidate, that let the tsarist state remain an independent country even there, if we do not succeed in all of it, all of it. to destroy, but it will be a country of frightened people, by the way, as is happening with georgia, people do not want war, this is the main task of society, the non-repetition of war, let this war was several times for several days, but the trauma is so great that now those political forces that primarily emphasize that they bring peace, they are in the mainstream, there is still a very good example of such a country, this is hungary, strangely enough, 56
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-th year, and all the previous tests of the hungarian people, which led to the fact that they were traumatized, hungarians' aspirations for freedom were interrupted several times by the appearance of russian troops, or general pashkevich, whether he was field marshal, field marshal, pashkevich, or marshal zhukov, by the way, these are all great commanders of russia. people who won the most important wars for russia and the world, but they still have the hypostasis of executioners of the hungarian people, that is marshal georgy zhukov, that is, he received the fourth star of the hero of the soviet union, for the fact that he destroyed the hungarian uprising, that is not enough who says, marshal had four stars, the first for hulkingola, the second, two for world war ii. and fourth for hungary. and if we don't
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remember it, believe me, hungarians remember it, every hungarian, when he sees portrait of marshal zhuk, knows for sure that this is the executioner of hungarian freedom. and what happens that in this situation, when viktor orbán says: " i brought you peace, i guarantee you peace here, he has an audience that understands how important it is, how important it is not to quarrel with russia one more time, god forbid. don't be angry, get this for the third time, relatively speaking, although this is not the third time, so this is also a trauma, and i think that this is a deliberate infliction of trauma. and i assume that the kremlin is now thinking that it is necessary to create a trauma of such a scale for ukrainians for the future, it is dangerous, this war, the war and how it is happening and what goals they set, you should not think that it is just like that. mr. vitaly, you mentioned ireland, you mentioned their episode in their history, their famine,
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which they experienced, and the fact that they have a museum, which. remembers this and honors what happened to the irish, this year money was supposed to be allocated for the museum, and they said it was not in time, although it was money that they could not spend on the war, i was also very surprised by this story, so that we know very well that we talked about money that cannot be allocated to the ukrainian army anyway, if we have money at our disposal that cannot go to war, we should use it to emphasize... the national identity of ukrainians, because it needs to understand a simple thing that few people talk about, but it must be said again and again, we can win this hot phase of war, we can save ourselves from this hot phase of war by some political
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decisions when they mature in a civilized world world, it is possible. a turn of events is possible, but winning a hot war does not mean winning a civilizational war, we can then lose a civilizational war, which basically means if we remain a so-called bilingual state, ugh, in which the russian language will remain a priority for many of our compatriots , and it is not a question of whether there is something bad or good in the russian language, as they are currently trying to characterize it there, there is nothing bad or good in languages at all, language is a tool of communication, just the russian language - it is a tool of communication of another state, and conveying its culture and conveying another culture and another mentality, and the russian language definitely has all the rights to develop in the russian people living
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in russia or in exile, it does not matter, russian culture can be democratic, it can be. chauvinistic, it is simply not ours. when i hear from people that they say, oh, there is no need to talk about it, we are just defending the country and so on, we have given up russian culture, and we are talking about that language that we want, i have a certain suspicion of the schizophrenia of the situation, because you cannot give up culture and speak this language, in which you do not want to read writers and poets, because you are actually creating a civilizational fault again. for his own children, for himself, man, he doesn't just use language as a tool, he uses the conditions for development, and by and large, by and large, the situation is very simple, either we, we have a simple choice, or we we can come to of this ukrainian-centric, ukrainian-speaking ukraine
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with its own culture, its own historical narrative. or we will remain, at least on a large part of our territory, a province of russian civilization, they can say that two states in which the languages of other countries are spoken, they exist, if we leave the provinces, why are we then at war with russia, that is a good question, well, we can and i will tell you that we are fighting simply for democracy, russia is not democratic, we are democratic, but such a question arises, it dies after 10 years vladimir putin forgets everything in russia, everything suddenly collapses , and russia becomes democratic, which means that we don't need ukraine, ukraine is just a refuge for democracy, is ukraine a refuge for ukrainianism, well, that's also a good question, well what else am i talking about, there is, there is austria, people there speak german, of course, half of switzerland speaks german, but that, but the austrians and
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the swiss were formed as political nations hundreds of years ago, and that’s all one thing... austria somehow remains in the german magnet cultural field. and if the second world war did not end, how did it end. maybe the austrian nation would not exist. this is the result of political decisions. after the first, after the second world war, the austrians always wanted to be in an alliance with germany. all the time they were told after the first world war you can't. and after the second one, they themselves did not want it, for clear political reasons, and not reasons of a national and cultural nature, and political reasons they did not want to be in one. with the vanquished and wanted to somehow get rid of at least the most important ones consequences, well, they succeeded, the same switzerland, switzerland is a union of different. there are small states, whether german or french or italian-speaking, who have agreed among themselves that they will live in such an economic union, and each of these small states respects its own
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language, as you understand, the attitude towards the german language in the canton, bern is the attitude in the canton of zurich different from the attitude in the canton of geneva, where french is popularized and considered the state language, and so on, so in this respect everything is just organic. now. let's look at ukraine, if we want to to win this war, we must understand that the victories of the armed forces are only prerequisites for such a real civilizational change, and i really hope that these events that took place in ukrainian history will give people, at least an opportunity, to try to speak ukrainian with their children. when i see how many people do not do this, do not even understand this, it honestly scares me, because i simply look
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to the future, and understand that ukraine, which will not be able to choose its clear cultural and there is no civilizational orientation of the future, there is simply no, and this is the question of what we are fighting for, we are fighting, of course, to be a democratic, free state, but ukraine, and this is the most important thing, you understand, states go through different stages of development, there are dictatorships, there are authoritarian regimes, there are democracies, everyone strives for democracy, but the main thing is that the state remains itself, you see, romania remained romania both during the times of the kings and during the dictatorship of nicholas. now that it is a democratic country that is one of the most such, as i said, now actively, developed, new
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regions of the european union, but ukraine was not ukraine, that's what the focus is, soviet ukraine was not ukraine, but such a sham, the ukraine of the times of the tsars was a state where everything ukrainian was consistently banned, realistically . we saw the ukraine that we could see as a state 1,000 years ago, in the times of the rus, when the civilizational separation of the principalities of southern and northern russia took place, when the mongol invasion affected northern russia much more than southern russia, that's when it there was still statehood, which you could really talk about as ukraine, and what happened later, everything possible was done so that ukraine did not exist, and now we simply have a chance to revive it. as self-worth, it would be , by the way, the most important memory, but about the people who died during the holodomor, and what kind of ukraine was it at the time of independence, what kind of
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ukraine is it? ukraine at the time of independence from 1991 to 2004 was simply a renamed soviet republic, in 2004 there was an attempt to start building an independent state, which essentially ended with the revenge of these of pro-russian forces in 2010 for the 20th year. the ukrainian state was essentially ready for capture, but as they say in moldova a captured state, it was captured not by oligarchs, but in fact by pro-russian forces, which destroyed all institutions, the army, power structures, were everywhere russian agents, well, in fact, in 2013, this renamed soviet ukraine collapsed and the construction of an independent state began, which, as should be expected, was attacked by russia, first by annexation, and then by a major war, so that the formula consists in this, and this is also the formula of the holodomor, that as soon as the ukrainians want to exist as an independent nation, the russians
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immediately want to destroy them, that is , you can be ukrainians from the russian point of view when you sit there under a bench, and preferably speak russian, preferably do you speak russian, can you cook borscht and dumplings, please, go to concerts in honor of the day of the russian police, dance, gabak, very beautiful, that’s all a ukrainian can afford, because he is not ukrainian, but some wrong russian, and this is the whole essence of the situation in which we are in our relations with russia, so, but on the other hand, to think that independent ukraine after august 1991 could have been different, i would not , the society was very strong, traumatized again, remember. how many years passed after the famine of 1991? 50, this is two generations, how many years passed after the war
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in 91. somewhere 45, 35, that's one generation, 45, yes, 45, well, anyway, 46, there's 60, and there 's less than 60, and, and it was one injury for injuries, you still don't forget the famine post-war, when the soviet people started to live relatively normally, well, about the mid-60s, until the mid-60s, they were just poor, don't forget that it was... still an agricultural state, there was a huge amount of rural the population, the rural population did not have passports, could not move, they were slaves, in fact it was the restoration of serfdom again, only the bolshevik regime, again, how could it all function normally, no way, so i believe that this is the progress that we have done for these decades, given the real state of society, this is already a huge progress, and don't forget that
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the russians have their own... their own traumas and complexes led to the fact that they just started somewhere around the middle of the 90s, rapidly rolling back, and so far, that have already rolled away from the soviet union, they are simply going back to the middle ages to ivan the terrible, and this is also an absolutely obvious story, which seems important to me, if we compare these two countries, we have. i can compare myself, here we are very often we like to compare ourselves with poland, with the czech republic, there with slovakia, and maybe we need to compare ourselves with russia or belarus and see how far we are, huh, maybe we are not such losers, if you think from the point of view of historical development, what path we have traveled , uprisings, revolutions, and all this is a huge success from the point of view of the flights of state development, we resist and
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fight in the war, and look at what a difficult social situation of crisis, almost all former soviet republics can, with the exception of the baltic countries, crisis, inter-ethnic conflicts, authoritarian rulers everywhere, so from that point of view, i think if you talk about this test of civilization, it's for a nation that has experienced such disruption and such problems. which , in fact, has been the destruction of national statehood throughout the 20th century. the war of occupation, next to the civil war of the russians, which they waged on ukrainian territory, the reds and whites, on the territory of ukraine, for ukrainian bread, the destruction of the ukrainian people 's republic, the death of zunr, then repressions, then famine, then the second world war, then a new famine, then the suppression of everything
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ukrainian, and that's the whole story. of course, you can tell the story of the achievements, i can do it completely calmly too, but we are talking about reality, reality was like that, and here we are, against this background of 1991 , declaring independence, as it should have been, what you immediately had to become switzerland, the same poles call it, they lived in a satellite state, but in an independent state with the memory of an independent state that existed until the 39th year, nobody had such a memory in our country, memory it is important, it is needed to protect, and that is precisely why we remind you that today all ukrainians, wherever they are, honor the memory of those ukrainians who died during the great famine arranged by russia, those ukrainians who fought against those who arranged this great famine, we should also always remember these people, because they are real ukrainian heroes, we can say , the predecessors of those ukrainian heroes who are fighting for our independence today, a memorial candle is not too late, always on saturday at 44 light it, but you can light it
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right now and say what you remember about those ukrainians. vitaliy portnikov, lesya vokulyuk, in the saturday club program. thank you for being with us, stay with espresso. a week of memorable dates and high-ranking visits, how residents of border areas survive under shelling and who benefits from blocking the polish-ukrainian border, about this and much more in today's issue. evaluation of euromaid events no longer divides ukrainians. what did lloyd austin, boris pistorius, charles michel and other tall people come to kyiv with?
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