[000:00:00;00] and the executors of the holodomor, uhu, postyshev, the head of the central committee of the party stanislav kosior, the chairman of the council of people's commissars, vlas chubar, other representatives of the country's party leadership, the chairman of the presidium of the verkhovna rada of the ukrainian ssr hryhoriy petrovsiy, in whose honor dnipropetrovsk was named, who signed all these decrees, in general, which led to the famine, well, formally. signed, of course, eh, he did not destroy only because petrovsky literally ran away, this is a famous story, he simply ran away from stalin, being a candidate for the politburo, moved to an illegal position, well, he was a person with a large illegal past, a former convict there, a member of the state duma, and he waited out the repressions, in the unknown where of some of his acquaintances, somewhere in the deaf, and

then he worked all his life ... behind the farm in the museum of the revolution in moscow, when he was already asleep and his children were shot, it seems, as always happens, but he himself saved himself, and even lived to be awarded the title of hero of socialist labor, he already conceived khrushchev as an old bolshevik, but it the only exception is that in ukraine three central committees of the parties were destroyed one after the other, people were elected to the central committee and all were shot after that, all of them, we don't even know some of the leaders of ukraine at that time, are there no photos of them? in order not to testify, well, that was just the time before the reformation of the apparatus, ugh, and in order not to testify, there were probably also different motives, but in the 60s, the restoration of socialist legality and rehabilitation began, so i ended up, let's say, on chubal avenue at some point in his life, but nearby there were the streets of kosior, zaton, and other

soviet bolshevik settlements. it generally became an icon of soviet ukraine, books, biographies, films, that is, as part of the rejection of the cult of stalin and the debunking of stalinist repressions, people who were direct participants in the destruction of the ukrainian people were added to the soviet iconostasis, and this was presented under the label of restoring justice, here ... if you want there to rehabilitate your loved ones there, your cultural figures, those or others, you should take as the main thing that we rehabilitated party figures, who essentially carried out all these criminal decisions, and very often were the engine of this whole human-hating movement, and this was also always such a disaster for me, and of course this page of participation in the famine, it was kept silent, uh, no one about it never

says, there was no hunger, there was no. therefore, they were ardent revolutionaries who had monuments and who were much better than stalin and his guards, because they shot them, repressed them, and about the fact that some bandits killed others, well, there is no need to talk about that was to say, all of kyiv , as you remember, was renamed in fact, after the names and surnames of these people, in fact, this kyiv itself was a monument to the restoration of ... socialist legality, a monument to khrushchev from the league, and in fact, these were the names of the executioners, and we only started to get rid of these names little by little in the 90s, but remember, it was a very, very long time, and it also created some misunderstanding among people to a certain extent reality, misunderstanding the scale

of what happened, so when the president yushchenko already initiated all these...' real changes in the historical memory of the state, practically the entire party of regions, all except for two deputies who were from lviv and therefore simply did not laugh, well, they were afraid that they would come here, this there was taras chornovil, hanna herman, we even remember who it was, they voted against the clear, i would say, definition of the holodomor, because viktor yanukovych believed that such a definition, it... firstly, it quarrels ukraine with russia, and secondly, it distances ukraine from russia, and that's all, but now you can hear from ukrainians, what did that yushchenko do, he was dealing with his famine, i often hear this, listen to it, it is also clear, i think that in principle, i cannot say that i was an ardent supporter of the president

viktor yushchenko, when he was the president, because i also expected more concrete and clear actions from him in terms of reforming the country, but every person can do what he can do, what viktor yushchenko tried to change the attitude of ukrainians towards their , i would say national is a huge coup in consciousness, in principle, when you sow such seeds, they do not yield results immediately, both in education, and in the way the media treats certain problems, and in the fact that such a real attitude to the tragedy arises, imagine again the jewish people who don't want to mention the holocaust, or say, listen, let's not worsen relations with germany, it's important for us to build with them, we need to live, were, yes, of course, now we need good relations with everyone, and the germans will probably be offended, which means we will to say that they are responsible, they should repent

, my god, we will quarrel with them, and this is a serious european state, imagine what modern israel would look like, in general, would modern israel be like this with such an attitude to its own history , then extrapolate it to the holodomor, by and large the holodomor...' this is one of the fundamental events in the history of the ukrainian people, because the number does not even matter, what matters is, firstly, that there were millions of people, and secondly the second is that it was an artificial story, many peoples have a great famine the foundation of national consciousness, i remember i was in dublin, until the moment when there was a museum of the great famine. then, when i came the next time, it seems to me that this museum was already built, a museum that is remembered not only by its exposition, but by the monument near the museum, when there are people walking, hungry

people, everything is beautiful there done, it’s like this in essence, also a variation of our girl near the, er, museum of the holodomor, but there are several people from the tortured, scary faces, and when you see it, you perceive the story in a completely different way of the irish people with all the traumas, you are a lot, you begin to understand about the irish , things that in principle you could not understand, but you are a foreigner, and you imagine a fellow irishman for whom this history suddenly does not exist, this is a fundamental history, the great famine, but this the great famine, one way or another, was connected with the negligence of the british government. with a lack of understanding of the scale of the problem, but it didn't happen, it was n't intentional, of course, no one in london gathered and said, let's starve the irish, they just tried somehow didn't pay attention to it and didn't understand what it would lead to, and this treatment of ireland as some over there, relatively speaking

, a territory not like britain, you can talk about all this, and it's also a trauma, but the irish at least know that the british government did not plan to destroy them. deliberately, and now he did not go to war, just like russia again and of course, he wanted to and would not go, because it was a complicated relationship between these two peoples, they can be compared to the relationship between russians and ukrainians, but one way or another, yes or otherwise this is a slightly different story, but here we understand that we are talking about an artificial golet, and we are talking about the 90s, the leadership of democratic russia, you gave up communism, why can't you tell the truth that the communist government is no more. the government went to artificially destroy the ukrainian people for one reason or another, political , economic, social, choose which ones you like more, in the end, make them the main thing for you, no, we can't do it for one simple

reason, because then we will have no reason to hope that we will return you to our ceremonial abode, and therefore we will pretend that you and i have the same fate, we also had a famine in the volga, and you had a famine, well, it’s simple the results of the careless agrarian policy of the bolshevik government, well, first of all, this is also not true, all these famines that occurred in russia itself, it was also not only the result of carelessness, but the result of punishing the peasantry, which was not a base for the bolsheviks, they considered the proletariat as their base, which was in the minority, imagine a party that in its head represents 5 or 10% of the population comes to power in the country. i do not represent the 90, but i am sure that it should lead the country, because it is the dictatorship of the proletariat , that is, the dictatorship

of the overwhelming majority, the minority. , subjugate, take away bread, buy it at the prices we like, force them... build to give us grain, so of course we need ukraine very much, because it is the main agricultural territory of the russian empire, and therefore we have to intimidate them there. as much as possible, and if they still have some national consciousness, which should become a reason for their separation, and then we will have to buy bread from them, and not take it, well, that’s it in general, god himself ordered them to die of hunger, and therefore the misunderstanding of this simple thing on the part of the russians, i am not surprised, but i am surprised that we had a lot of compatriots with you who wanted to live in the same narrative, and this was also certain for me for years and i would say from childhood

psychological trauma, that i can't talk about it, that these people, who , unlike me, have real victims in their families, precisely from the famine, or they don't want to know about it, and it's really amazing, i i don't blame these people again, i blame the very state that created such opportunities for people to feel this way, if... ukrainians had not started talking about the holodomor, about what it was, if some movements on the legislative level had not started level, in recognition of the famine, whether ukrainians would defend the country on february 24, or would go to defend, i think that firstly, this is part of the national table, secondly, there is another very important issue, which should also be, from this point of view, reassessed, this is what you talked about in the first place.

minutes of our program, the question of dignity, there was always the idea that this famine is when people simply die and do nothing, historians, by the way, it started with the research of volodymyr vyatrovich, who proved to the institute of national memory that it was about a total uprising, the state that organizes such a crime always has a great desire to present his victims with cattle, ugh. even so, even you made it a crime, but look at them, they were just dying, who are they, what kind of people are they, so they can die, so they are the worse kind, so they are, this is also, an important point, we started talking about uprising, about a series of peasant uprisings in ukraine, the fact that the ukrainian peasants resisted their oppressors, and this is also a very ... important point that needs to be said, by the way, then the nazis will do the same,

they will keep silent uprising, the warsaw uprising, because it was for them the idea that they just take people and put them in gas chambers, ugh, and also then it took years of historical research to show that there was serious resistance to all this, it was still there, but again, the hitlerites disappeared in 45, and then everything it could be told as a narrative for years. the story of the warsaw uprising became a myth literally in 1945, and what happened to the peasant uprisings during the famine, they were silenced until 1995, approximately, if not later, and they did not exist, and this is also a very important moment, so much years have passed since 30 there in the third year, imagine, uh, 60 years, and there were almost no witnesses left, people who are witnesses can tell you about the cold, not about the uprising, because the participants of the uprising simply destroyed

everyone, destroyed, and this is also a very important moment, and by the way, i’m not saying that it’s already a very important moment, that we will soon face new attempts to organize a famine in this war, and on a much larger scale, i have to say that putin is by and large more a large-scale person than stalin. stalin was interested in this internal history, he along with he was ready to sell grain, ukrainian grain abroad, to get money for it, to continue building the enterprise, putin wants to cause hunger in the world, to ban the sale of ukrainian grain, to raise grain prices in the world, to provoke a crisis, to provoke migration problems, he has large-scale tasks , he is ready, i would say, to starve half of africa and half of asia for his political goals, but he also prevents african countries, no, of course, he does not want to be... directly

responsible for this, but you remember you know what they started negotiations about the zard corridor only when in africa they began to say in a voice that russia would be responsible for the african famine, until the moment when they believed that they would be able to make ukraine responsible, they kept silent and simply prepared this famine, and then they realized that they would have external political consequences, and they began to say it out loud. so it's all absolutely obvious and when our institutions say that putin wants to organize an artificial famine in ukraine, i think it's absolutely. legally conclusion, not only hunger, but the cold, the destruction of the opportunity to live normally, this is all the punishment of the population , the holodomor, by and large, was a punishment whose purpose was not simply to reduce ukraine demographically, although this

is also the goal, this is also the goal that stalin and putin has it, but here to humiliate, and also to humiliate and intimidate, so that russia... remains an independent country even there, maybe, if we don’t manage to destroy it all, all of it, but it will be a country of frightened people, so to things like what is happening in georgia, people don't want war, that's the main thing the task of society, the non-repetition of war, even if this war was several times for several days, but the trauma is so great that now those political forces that primarily... emphasize that they bring peace, they are in the mainstream, there is still a very good example of such country, this is hungary, strangely enough, in the 56th year and all the previous tests of the hungarian people, which led to the fact that they were angry with them, and they were traumatized, several times the aspirations of the hungarians

for freedom were interrupted by the appearance of russian troops or general pashkevich that he will pashkevich or marshal zhukov, by the way, these are all great commanders of russia, people who won the most important wars for russia and the world, but they still have the status of executioners of the hungarian people. here is marshal georgy zhukov, here he received the fourth star of the hero of the soviet union for the fact that he destroyed the hungarian uprising, but few people know about it. says, the marshal had four stars, the first for halkin gol, the second, two for world war ii, and the fourth for hungary, and if we don't remember it, believe me, the hungarians remember it , every hungarian when

sees the portrait of marshal zhuk, he knows for sure that this is the executioner of hungarian freedom, and that it turns out that in this situation, when viktor orbán says, i brought you peace, i guarantee you here... peace, he has an audience that understands how much it is important, how important it is not to quarrel with russia one more time, god forbid, not to get angry , to get this for the third time, relatively speaking, although it is not the third time, so this is also a trauma, and i think that this is a deliberate infliction of trauma, and i admit that the kremlin is now thinking about the need to create injuries of such a scale for ukrainians for the future, it is dangerous. this war, the war and how it takes place and what goals they set, you should not think that it is just like that. mr. vitaliy, you mentioned ireland, you mentioned their episode in their history, their famine, which they experienced and that they have a museum that remembers it and

commemorates what happened to the irish, this year, should have been allocated money for the museum, and they said it was not in time, although. it was money for the war, it could not go, me too, this story surprised me a lot, because we know very well what we were talking about money, which cannot be allocated to the ukrainian army anyway, if we have money at our disposal that cannot go to war, we should use it to emphasize the national identity of ukrainians, because we need to understand a simple thing that few people know about speaks, but it must be talked about again and again... together, we can win this hot phase of war, we can save ourselves from this hot phase of war, as a result of certain political decisions, when they mature in the civilized world, this is

a possible, possible turn events, but win a hot war, it does not mean to win a civilizational war, civilizations... a war, we can then lose, what does this mean in principle? if we remain a so-called bilingual state, well, in which, the russian language will remain a priority for many of our compatriots, and it is not a question of whether there is something bad or good in the russian language, as they are now trying to characterize it there, in languages ​​in general there is nothing bad or good, speech. it is a tool of communication, simply the russian language is a tool of communication of another state, and conveying its different culture, and conveying a different culture and a different mentality, and the russian language definitely has every right to develop. it does not matter whether the russian people live in russia or in exile, russian culture can be democratic,

it can be chauvinistic, it is simply not ours. when i hear from people that they say, oh, there's no need to talk about it, we're just defending the country and so on, we gave up russian culture, and we speak the language we want, then i feel a certain suspicion of the schizophrenia of the situation, because you cannot give up culture and speak the language in which you do not want to read writers and poets, because you are actually creating such a civilizational pitfall for your own children for yourself, a person, she is not simply uses language as a tool, it uses language for development, and by and large, by and large, the situation is very simple, either we have a simple choice, or we can come to this ukrainian-centric... ukrainian-speaking ukraine with its own culture, its own historical narrative, or we

will remain, at least on a large part of its territory, a russian civilizational province. they can say that there are two states in which the languages ​​of other countries are spoken, they exist, but if we stay away from the provinces, then why are we fighting with russia, that 's a good question, well, we can and they will tell you that we are simply fighting for democracy. russia is not democratic, we are democratic, but this question arises, vladimir putin dies after 10 years, as always happens in russia, everything suddenly collapses and russia becomes democratic, it means that we don't need ukraine, ukraine is just a refuge of democracy, or ukraine, it is a refuge of ukrainianism, well, that's also a good question, well , what else am i talking about, there is, there is austria, she, people there speak german, of course, or half of switzerland speaks german there, but that's it, but it's shrill. these and the swiss were formed as political nations hundreds of years ago, and anyway, austria

remains one way or another in the magnet of the german cultural field, and if it did not end the second world war ended like this, maybe the austrian nation would not have existed , this is the result of political whims, after the first world war, after the second world war, all the time the austrians wanted to be in an alliance with germany, all the time they were told after the first world war you can't, after the second one... they didn't want to for obvious political reasons , not reasons of a national and cultural nature, but political reasons, they didn't want to be in the same state with the defeated and wanted somehow to get away at least from the most important consequences, well, they managed to do it too, switzerland, switzerland - this a union of various small states, whether german or franco, or italian, which have agreed among themselves that they will live in such an economic union, and each of their small... states respects its language, as you understand,

the attitude towards the german language in the canton of bern, or in the canton of zurich, the attitude is different than in the canton of geneva, where french is popularized and considered the state language, and so on, so in this respect everything is just organic, now let's look at ukraine, if we still want to to win this war, we must understand that the victory of the armed forces is only a prerequisite for such. a real civilizational change and i really hope that these events that took place in ukrainian history will give people at least an effort to try to speak ukrainian with their children, when i see how many people do not do this, even this doesn't understand, it honestly scares me, because i just look at... and understand that

there is no ukraine that cannot choose its own clear cultural and civilizational orientation for the future, that's just no, and this is the question of what we are fighting for, we are fighting, of course, to be a democratic, free state, but ukraine, and this is the most important thing, you see, states go through different stages of development. there are dictatorships, there are authoritarian regimes, there are democracies, everyone aspires to democracy, but the main thing is that the state remains itself , you see, romania remained romania, both in the times of the kings, and in the times of the dictatorship of nikolay cushetsk and now, when it is a democratic country that is one of the most such, i said now actively developed, new regions the european union, but ukraine was not, that's the trick: soviet ukraine was not

ukraine, but such a sham. ukraine at the time of the tsars. was a state where everything ukrainian was consistently banned, realistically, the ukraine that we could see as a state, we saw 1000 years ago, in the times of rus, when the civilizational demarcation of the principalities of southern and northern russia took place, when the mongol invasion touched much northern russia is stronger than southern russia, at that time it was still a statehood that could really be called ukraine, and so. then it was, everything possible was done so that ukraine would not exist, and now we simply have a chance to revive it as self-worth, it would be the most important memory of the people who died during the holodomor, and the ukraine of the time of independence , what kind of ukraine is this? ukraine at the time of independence from 1991 to 2004 was simply a renamed soviet republic

, in 2004 there was an attempt to start building an independent... state, which essentially ended with the revenge of these pro-russian forces in 2010, in 2013 the ukrainian state, according in fact, it was ready for capture, as they say in moldova, a captured state, it was captured not by oligarchs, but in fact by pro-russian forces, which destroyed all institutions, the army, power structures, there were russian agents everywhere, and in fact, in 2013, this renamed soviet ukraine collapsed and began: the construction of an independent state , which, as should be expected, was attacked by russia, first by annexation, and then by a great war, because the formula is, and this is also the formula of the holodomor, that as soon as the ukrainians want to exist as an independent nation, the russians immediately want to destroy them, that is, you can be a ukrainian from the russian point of view, when you sit there under the bench, quietly, and preferably

speak russian, preferably speak russian, listen to russian, melt borscht dumplings, please go at concerts in honor of the day of the russian police to dance the gabak, very beautiful, and that is all that a ukrainian can afford, because he is not a ukrainian, but some kind of wrong russian, and this is the whole essence of the situation in which we find ourselves in our relations with russia, yes that, but on the other hand, consider that independent ukraine after august 1991. it could have been different, i wouldn't have become one, society was very strong, traumatized again, well, remember how many years passed after the famine of 1991 ? 50, these are two generations, how many years passed after the war in the 91st year, somewhere 45 , 35, this is one generation, 45, yes, 45, well

, anyway, 46, there are 60, and there are less than 60. and this there was one trauma after another, don't forget the post-war famine, when the soviet people began to live relatively normally, well, around the mid-60s years, until the mid-60s, they were simply poor, do not forget that this was still an agricultural state, there was a huge number of rural population, the rural population did not have passports, could not move, they were slaves, in fact they were again from... serfdom only by the bolshevik regime again , how could it all function normally, no way, so i believe that the progress we have made over these decades, taking into account the real state of society, is already a huge progress, and don't forget, that of the russians, their own injuries and complexes led to the fact that they simply

began to roll back rapidly somewhere around the middle of the 90s. moreover, so far that they have already rolled away from the soviet union, they are simply heading somewhere in the middle ages to ivan the terrible, and this is also an absolutely obvious story, which is, i think, important, if we compare these two countries, we have to be able to compare ourselves, we very often like to compare ourselves with poland, the czech republic, there with slovakia, and maybe we need to compare ourselves with russia or belarus and see how we are doing. ugh, maybe we are not such losers, if you think from the point of view of historical development, what a path we have traveled, uprisings, revolutions, and all this is a huge success from the point of view of the flight of the state , we are developing and fighting in the war, but look at what a difficult social situation of crisis, almost all former

soviet republics, with the possible exception