[000:00:00;00] kuchaev, i will definitely be happy, because i will have something to talk about, because there is an article in the financial times, there are thoughts about next year's elections in the united states and possibly in britain, there are questions about the netherlands, where he won, well, formally he won, but he cannot say that he will organize the next government of the netherlands, but a formal victory is definitely a supporter of putin, and that's all, all this can be analyzed, all this is interesting, why such people win, although on the other hand, you know, well it such a conditional victory, his party got 37 seats out of 150, that is , it means that they are the first, but the second ones are already

breathing down their backs. and to say that they alone can decide something there is unlikely. petro burkovskyi, executive director and analyst of the democratic initiative fund named after ilko kucharev, appeared, and i saw him. thank you, mr. peter, for volunteering to talk to espresso on sunday night instead of relaxing. look, the ft financial times wrote that the elections in the united states and britain may coincide, and this is somewhat dangerous for stormy, as they write against the international background, i have never heard such a thing before, well, they will bring elections, yes, they do not have a war, thank god, they can hold elections, well, in america it will be just an ordinary election, so

regular in britain, another political system, but your point of view, you consider it a danger, i was absolutely shocked by this article in the financial times, because i did not see, well, there is this phrase, which coincides with the stormy international background, well, where stormy, in we have a stormy international background, israel has a stormy international background, something i did not see there are no storms in britain or america, your point of view, please, thank you, mr. mykola, good evening, i think there are two points of view here. first, as we saw, the events in the middle east, in israel, they stirred up public opinion in britain and in the united states, and people saw this reaction from the islamic part, yes , the muslim part of society, which came out very strongly with demands, some with anti-semitic statements, yes, and this

endangered, well, it endangered that foreign policy in the public discourse, which was led by the united states and great britain for a very long time, and both countries tried to play the role of a mediator, so in the middle east, between the palestinians and the israelis, it is clear that this was done primarily based on the fact that there are strategic interests, maintaining relations with the monarchies , with oil monarchies, let's call it that, big arms contracts , which are also in britain, the united states of america, these monarchies to the middle east, and of course investments, we must not forget that these are all countries, they not only buy weapons in britain and in the united states, and they buy their debts, that is, they give them debts, buy their debt obligations and thus cover some small, but still, part of their state budget deficit in both countries, and here at the elections and in britain and in the united states, that's for sure, this factor

of the votes of these, the muslim community, muslim communities, they... will play a role, on the other hand, we also see such a sharp reaction from the right-wing forces in the united states, these are the trumpists, this is a moderate part of the democrats in britain, it's, a part, of course, a large part of the conservative party, who are, well, very clearly on the side of israel , uh, and in a word, in a word, it could all lead to polarization, yes, to a tougher election in the united states, maybe even with speeches and with certain actions of both supporters of palestine and israel, that is, it is one thing, that is, what affects the internal agenda, externally, i think, they are afraid that the elections will distract the leadership of the united states and great britain from helping ukraine and while europe, in its turn, for now occupies a secondary place, that is, this uncertainty that europe can, in

the second half of the 20th of the fourth year , at least for six months, stand in for the united states, perhaps great britain, with its resources, well, this i think, and perhaps this fear is the main one expressed. in this article in the financial times, look, we are talking about this with you and in general they are talking about it, the whole world is talking about it, and i have the impression that journalists are to blame for this kind of impression, which, which exists, that they say , palestinian or muslim forces, they are so active, there are so many of them, they are so so so influential, when you see the population of london and see. how many people came out on the street, you will understand, it is some 0, some unknown percentage there, the same in the united states, the same throughout europe, yes, they look quite, quite so serious when

you look, but who sharply reacted to the liberation struggle of the jewish people in gaza, i somehow solved such a formula, then you will understand that some country in latin america. some country in southern africa, but you will see that even muslim countries did not break off relations , did not break off economic relations, some kind of, well, trouble, but not a scandal, maybe it is journalists who are in pursuit of some bright events, the way we are now, for example, showing this london, london demonstration, and the impression is that the whole of london, in london, let's remember, two. 10 million people live in greater london, but 1,000, 200, well, 300 go to demonstrations, they say. the maximum number was 3,000, what do you say about whether the journalists are guilty, whether i am guilty, or not so guilty, and i think that the media bear

a certain share of responsibility for what is happening, what, again, they bought into including to russian propaganda, i.e. portraying israel as the aggressor state in this case and all... those who stand on the side of israel, accordingly, their position is also condemned, despite the fact that they deny the terrible crimes, the attempted holocaust that hamas committed on october 7 against the israeli people, and that's why i think you know what's going on here the main problem, in my opinion, is that now these patterns of political correctness in the west are breaking, and when these patterns are breaking, that is, when it disappears, and what are these patterns of political correctness, it is when the basis for a civilized dialog disappears, and instead the street takes its voice, on the street very sharply, as you know, you can go from shouting, in some cases about exchange, there demonstrations to direct action actions, to disobedience, and this most of all worries the governments, and the united states, europe,

great britain, that these actions, well, bring to further radicalization of minorities, yes, to the fact that these slogans will become a trigger, including for people, well, they are not protected. strata, that they also support these protests, and that this can lead to long-term instability and unpredictability, most importantly , you know, unpredictability in elections, that then candidates who profess more radical views, both from the left and from the right wing, they will win more votes and the moderates will lose, when this happens parliaments become polarized and make decisions, to pass laws, it becomes very, very difficult, that is, it is very difficult to find an agreement between... the extreme left and the extreme right, and then , then, then, the door opens for russian influence, and we know that the russians finance and influence us and

on the extreme left and on the extreme right, that is why there is such a threat here, i think that this is it, look, what to do, i would ask you what to do then, because in order to convert people to the right side, it is necessary to propagate, to implement propaganda . explaining to people, and western democrats, they don't they love props, they don’t have them, they don’t have the skill, this is the skill of propaganda in russia, which is based on soviet propaganda, or counter-propaganda, that’s what it was called then, but it is very difficult to convince people, to convert people to the right side of history, because they just don't know how, they tell the truth, they say white - white, black - black, and that's it for them, and now it comes... read mykola and they say, listen, you need to somehow explain this to people, and they say this , well, how will we explain, we will propaganda, we have not been taught propaganda, we do not know what to do, is there a way out in such a situation, from what

politicians and journalists have done, in the world, not only in ukraine, not only in europe, please, but i think that propaganda here or censorship, on the other hand, will not do, the only thing, yes, a realistic way out is that, if the situation does not escalate in the middle east, then there is a possibility that there in a few months, there until the first quarter of next year. by wednesday next year, that is, whenever it will be there is an election campaign in the united states and great britain, other issues will be on the agenda, such as internal, social, there are many issues in great britain and the united states, and what they will overshadow is the israeli -israeli-palestinian conflict, and these issues will take a second place plan, this is firstly, well, secondly, we must not forget that we have russia, and russia will try, well, it will try to escape. yes, the agenda, she will do something next, they

want to be on the front pages all the time and they will also try to drown out the events in the middle east, so i think everything will end with us having a different agenda in the second half of next year, at the same time let's not forget that hungary will preside over the european union, and we still waiting for another show, yes, but look, this wilders won in the netherlands, if he formally won in the netherlands, and if you just mentioned hungary, then slovakia, now wilders, well , he probably won’t head the government there, but he will have an influence , anyway, it, it's just if europe, or part, at least europe is developing into such an anti-immigrant, we always think about ourselves, but i don't see here about, i only see hungarians, i see anti-ukrainian in magyars.

in leaders, in slovaks, yes, they say that, but it’s not me, i don’t see that this is some kind of established policy, and also in the netherlands, and what will happen tomorrow, what will happen in a year, what will happen in two, half of europe will be just extreme right, anti-emigrant , anti-ukrainian, pro-russian, anti, i don't know what to say, anti-jewish, pro-palestinian or vice versa, i'm confused here, so what will be, is it a trend, or is it such a coincidence, a coincidence, or not. i think this is not a coincidence, we see that europe is more and more inclined to such isolations, yes, to closure from the flow of migrants from the middle east, from africa, which is the number of migrants that have arrived in europe in the last 10-15 years, it has already become critical, and let's call it that, the indigenous inhabitants , let's call it that, conditionally formulate the indigenous inhabitants of the european union, they don't like it anymore, that this other culture, it is becoming too visible and

too influential, so yes, i think that it will happen that these parties that you named can still be given july in france, in italy there is, but the ruling party of the brothers of italy, george georgi maloni, so they will win more votes, win more votes in the elections in june 2000, that is, next year, in the elections to the european parliament, as an answer to your question, mr. mykola, i cannot give now, but in june of next year you will receive this answer, we will see how much the share has really increased. .. such right-wing extremists right-wing parties in the elections to the european parliament, and then we will be able to say for sure in which direction europe is moving, is it really such a shift to the right, is it serious, or is some kind of balance maintained ? i see myself confused between palestine and israel because there are right-wing people who are for palestine, there are right-wing people who are for israel, there are, there are right-wing people who are for help, you

miloni mentioned, yes, she is very right, she is more or less an isolationist, but she absolutely pro-ukrainian, many generally consider miloni a fascist, or we are such a descendant of fascism, but for all her fascism, she is a great sympathizer of ukraine and a great opponent of russia, and it’s just like that now, well , that’s all, everyone laughed in the house, you know who , how we were taught classical russian letters in at least i was taught, i don’t know when you learned, that’s why i was taught, that is , how to figure out who is white and who is red, it is absolutely unknown, no, whether i am wrong, i think, here i have to answer very briefly, you see, the geopolitical interests remain the same, that is, italy feels that the competition from china is growing, yes in the industrial sector, and therefore it unites

with the united states, france with its own. side wants to play its role as an independent united states, and therefore, regardless of who is left, right, or centrist, they will be for the independence of europe and distancing from the united states, great britain, whoever comes to power, they are in favor of a strategic alliance in the united states, that is, in other words, in in europe, everyone focuses on who is your main trading partner, who owns the majority of your debts, and where are your main markets, and european states are basically divided on this basis. and who is left or right is more of an internal issue, how did they get visas, this migrant, but globally, so far we see in europe, here is an alliance of countries that are oriented either towards strategic france or the union with the united states, those countries will to support ukraine, because both options mean confrontation with russia and protection and threat from the side of russia thank you very much, thank you very much, petro burkovskyi, executive director, analyst of the ilko kuchayev foundation for democratic initiatives, if there is mr. arkady, then i would like

someone to tell me in my ear whether he is there or not, i mean arkady milman, a diplomat , former ambassador of israel to the russian federation. and the editors here wrote to me: i understand ukrainian, but speak russian , they are all, of course, a lot of israelis, they are from ukrainian territories, that is , they studied somewhere in a school or somewhere in a higher educational institution, and this, well, this if it's important, let's wait then , well, it's clear what we're going to talk about, the exchange continues, it's just interesting to understand how much both... two sides, well, i wouldn't even be very interested in how satisfied hamas is with this exchange, because somehow, terrors scare me more, and no, no, they do not make me a person who is very interested in terrorism, although i read many books in my time about terrorists, but what do they think, what does the state of israel think, what do the analysts

of the state of israel think, ae on how much they like these contacts, because from one on the one hand, what is the question, actually, the question... on the one hand, there is complete mistrust, especially after october 7, on the part of the israelis and the palestinians, and on the other hand , there is a need for some kind of exchange, that's how you will decide any - what is the question, if you do not completely trust your counterparty, that is, the person sitting across from you, on the one hand, and on the other hand, i think you have a way out, and you have to talk to him somehow, there are intermediaries, qatar, the egyptian, the states are all taking part in all these negotiations, and it is undoubtedly, well, some kind of the problem that needs to be solved, and how to solve it is not clear, something is happening today, arkady milman, diplomat, former ambassador of israel to russia, i will repeat, i will speak in ukrainian, because

according to the law, i follow ukrainian legislation, and mr. arkady will speak russian, because i absolutely and most of our and we don't know vita, so that's it, good health, mr. arkady, speak russian, please, but my first question, the first question is very simple and very difficult, am i now pronounce this question, and i am angry with myself. do you think that the israeli society, the israeli leaders, will be satisfied with the way these exchanges are taking place, which are already ongoing, the fire, the exchanges are taking place, i was just telling the audience that on the one hand, the israeli society does not trust hamas by 128%, and on the other hand one way or another, the party is forced to go to contacts in order to take away their people , and this is an absolutely terrible situation, so tell

me, i understand that you are not all satisfied, but, a terrible situation, but it is necessary to distinguish leaders from society, why, because that... it is clear to everyone that civil society has a task at any cost to get all our citizens whom the state was unable to protect on october 7, neither the israel defense forces, nor the russian political leadership, nor the state itself, as a system, could ensure the safety of its citizens 7 october, that is why civil society, the whole society, including me, we believe that at any cost to... the hostages must be released, it is necessary to hand these terrorists over to hostages, to hell with them, let them give them, we must come to an agreement with the devil, means let's go to hell and negotiate, because everyone's life, especially , i'm talking, there are children, today they returned a 4-year-old girl, whose

mother and father were killed by these terrorists, and the girl was taken hostage, and this girl is alone was held hostage for four years, imagine this... situation with these terrorists , this is a completely crazy situation, yes, this is a terrible situation, this is a tragedy, that is why society is interested, the government has a problem, because the government promises that they will destroy hamas, this will make everyone вренут, всё, всё, всё, всё, всё, but so far the ministry is working very poorly, in this government, very poorly, civil society is doing very much for victory. yes, even including the fact that suddenly it turned out that someone lacks some kind of extra soldiers there, they buy and carry everything and so on, and where did the army prepare all these years to have this equipment , questions, yes , which we set, which we will definitely, definitely understand after the war, but now the first thing is necessary

release the hostages, moreover, i will tell you that when this government was in a hurry, and this is a big claim against him, when he set the goals of this war, he said, first of all, it is necessary to destroy the military infrastructure of hamas, shake it up, destroy it, and then he said there, release the hostages only under the pressure of the entire society, this is what you need... understand, civil society has enormous power, under this pressure, the release of the hostages became the main goal on the same level as the destruction of hamas, and the war will not end until the last to the last hostage will be freed, it's already there with hamas, maybe it will take a long time to figure it out, because a large number of these people are in gaza, they support terror, not terrorists, this is a terrible... a terrible truth, but we have to face it in the face of this truth

, what should we do, they are terrorists, look, mr. arkady, a very important question, you know , there is always bad news, there is a lot of bad news in the middle east, but i still have a little optimism for two weeks ago, despite all the circumstances are tragic, but i had a suspicion that this attack , among others, by hamas on israel... was caused by the fact that some contacts with saudi arabia, israel, in general, the arab world began to look more closely and more, well, maybe not yet with a smile, but at least without these fangs, clicks, bloody, and today the president of the united states, mr. biden, supported me. the rapprochement of the united states with saudi arabia prompted hamas to

such careful elements, what do you say? i will say that you are right, and one of the goals of this terrorist organization, hamas together with iran, is to understand that here iran is also connected with this whole architecture of this attack, and partly one of the goals was to prevent the normalization process and that they asked... the united states of america is to build a new security architecture that includes saudi arabia, includes the united emirates, bahrain, respectively, and oman, israel, egypt, jordan, etc. thus, to create a new architecture with the help of the united states of america, in order to make this region more secure, in principle, this security architecture to some degree. directed against the threats posed by iran, despite the fact that iran has restored relations with saudi

arabia, but by and large there is no friendship there, there are many contradictions, and saudi arabia is clearly afraid of these threats that come from tehran, so this is their war, which they started, it would partially harm this new architecture, and here one cannot disagree with president biden, he is absolutely right and further, but the most interesting thing is that when the arab league convened for an emergency meeting to discuss the issue of of what is happening in the gas sector, it is interesting that the saudi representative said a simple thing , the issue of normalization, we still have it on our table as part of the scenarios where we want to work on them, therefore... in saudi arabia, definitely desire to normalize relations with us, as we have, but this will not happen if there is no mediation

by the united states of america, if there are no guarantees that the united states of america will give to saudi arabia and to us, so that the process of normalization is really carried out. now there will be a tricky question, not at all about the neighbors, well, about the middle east, obviously, but not directly, but through the united states, look, there is a lot of ... criticism of trump from the democratic circles, but they all admit that in american-israeli relations , american-middle eastern relations, trump was well done, the russians are waiting for trump, that he will somehow change the field policy of the united states towards russia. ukrainians are afraid and waiting for trump and would like to see biden re-elected, it is believed that there is more. pro-ukrainian biden than trump, what is the state of israel on this matter, in the state of israel people

would say, okay, we like trump, because he really made big... steps in this rapprochement, it started even in the days of trump, not biden's, or biden, yours the version, oh, the version is complicated, well, it’s not a tricky question, a difficult question, i would say, uh , several points, firstly, indeed, trump did a lot to advance the so-called abraham treaty, and we signed the saud treaty with the emirates and bahrain, indeed. but on the other hand, trump, under pressure from netanyahu , damaged everything related to iran, because the united states of america withdrew from the agreement on the nuclear program with iran. iran immediately began to continue quickly develop their nuclear program, and today iran is at the very stage where

it can obtain nuclear weapons in a very short period of time. this is a serious problem for us, a serious problem for america, so here the question is, something was positive, something was negative. the next moment, the democratic party, especially progressive circles, they are against president biden's policy, are helping israel. in our country today, president biden is considered one of the best in relation to israel, the former president of the united states america, and despite the criticism of his party, he came to israel, he supports us , he helps, and he really wants to resolve this conflict, and he is making every effort, although i say once again, this to some extent spoils his democratic rating party further, not all republicans, it turns out, not all republicans support israel, i will give an example of when the administration of president biden proposed

to make a package deal, help ukraine. help to israel, help to taiwan and more security on the southern border with mexico, then, the republicans opposed, what did they do, how did they oppose? they demanded from biden a change in the legislation related to domestic issues of taxation in general and said that if he does not accept it, then we will not support this deal, that is, in this way, it is not quite that they support israel, it is not quite that they support ukraine and so on. the next moment, what trump said, if i were president, i would be in favor of 24 time, would make a peaceful settlement between ukraine and russia, here is this, tell me, here is this statement, someone believes in this, someone can even imagine such a thing, yes , that is, it is from the categories of such populist statements, which are very characteristic of trump

and characteristic of populists of this kind, therefore in this situation. first of all, we don’t know what’s going to happen, yes, i’ll give you another interesting example, which you probably don’t know very well, this, we don’t pay attention to it either, but it’s very interesting moment, it means that public opinion polls were conducted, the situation in america is now such that they said, let's say, who would you like to see as president, and then they mentioned trump or biden, then they answered, there is a selection, they answered. and that means the result was 48% for trump, 44% for biden, and i don’t know the rest, and so on, when they put nika gale instead of trump, nika gale, she was, she was a governor in america in one of the states, she was a representative in the un , a very

serious woman, not a populist, knows everything, so when niki gaile or biden said, the difference between them was 20. not 4%, but 20%, but at the moment, whoever chooses a candidate from the republican party so that he stands for election on behalf of the party, then trump in this party turns out, he is now leading, he is in first place, although if you believe these questions of public opinion, then they should have chosen niki geyla, then a 100% guaranteed victory, and when the difference is 4%, then this is still the same, it can be a mistake question and so on, you have such a difficult situation today in america, and look, the last question is whether israeli newspapers or television, i don’t know, radio, the internet, this is a rather strange phenomenon when the russians refused to investigate the murder of 16 russians in hamazon, i don’t know if it was on