[000:00:00;00] the mystical government, the bolshevik government, went to the artificial destruction of the ukrainian people for one reason or another, political, economic, social, choose which ones you like more, in the end, make them the main ones for you, no, we cannot do it alone for a simple reason, because then we will have no reason to hope that we will bring you back to our folds in radnugai, and therefore we will pretend that you and i share the same fate. we also had a famine in the volga region, and you had a famine, well, these are just results careless agrarian policy of the bolshevik government, well, first of all, this is also not true, all these famines that were in russia itself, it was also not only the result of carelessness, but the result of punishment of the peasantry, which, although it was not a base for the bolsheviks, they considered their own the base of the proletariat, which was in the minority, imagine that a party comes to power in the country, which in

its head represents five or 10 of the population, and does not represent 90, but is sure that it should rule the country, because it is a dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. overwhelming dictatorship minorities, minorities, how many of these about workers in the russian empire at the moment when the bolsheviks come to power 3%, five, what to do with 95% of the population, conquer, take bread, buy it at the prices we like. i will force them to give us grain, so of course we need ukraine very much, because it is the main agricultural territory of the russian empire, and therefore we must intimidate them there as much as possible, and if they still have some national consciousness, which should become a reason for their secession, and then we will have to buy bread from them, and not take it, well, that's all, god himself ordered them

to starve. and therefore the misunderstanding of this simple thing on the part of the russians does not surprise me, but i am surprised that we had a lot of compatriots with you who wanted to live in the same narrative, and this for years for me, i will say from childhood, for me was also a certain psychological it's a trauma that i can't talk about it, that those people who, unlike me, have real victims in their families, precisely from the famine. or they don't want to know about it and it's really impressive, i don't blame them again, these people, i blame the very state that created such opportunities for people to feel this way, if ukrainians had not started talking about the holodomor, about what it was, if some movements had not started at the legislative level, to recognize the holodomor , would ukrainians defend the country on february 24, or

would they leave? i think that this is, firstly, a part of the national table, and secondly, there is another very important issue that should also be, from this point of view, reassessed, this is what you talked about in the first minutes of our program, the issue of dignity, there was always the idea that this one famine is when people simply die and do nothing, historians, by the way, it began with the research of volodymyr vyatrovich, which was brought to the institute of national memory. that we are talking about a total uprising in a state that organizes such a crime, there is always a great desire to present its victims as cattle , ugh, even yes, even we made it a crime, but look at them, they were just dying, who, what kind of people are they, that's why they can die, that's why the worse kind, this is also an important point, we

started talking about the uprising. about a string peasant uprisings in ukraine, the fact that the ukrainian peasants resisted their oppressors, and this is also a very important point that needs to be said, by the way, later the nazis will do the same, they will silence the uprising, the warsaw uprising, because for them, the idea was that they simply take people, put them in gas chambers, and then it took years, of historical research, to show that there was serious resistance to all this, it was still there, but again, the hitlerites disappeared in 1945, and then all this could be told for years as a narrative, the story of the warsaw uprising became a myth literally in 1945, and what happened to the peasant uprisings during the holodymor, they were hushed up until 1995, approximately, if not later, and they did not exist, and

this ... also a very important moment, so many years have passed since the 30th of the third year, imagine, uh, 60 years and there were almost no witnesses left, people who are witnesses. can tell you about the famine, and not about the uprising, because the participants in the uprising were simply all destroyed, destroyed, and that also a very important point, and by the way, i’m not saying that it’s already a very important point, that miknu faced in this war with new attempts to organize a famine, and on a much larger scale, i have to say that putin is by and large a larger-scale person than stalin. stalin was interested in this internal history, he was also ready to sell grain, ukrainian grain abroad. to receive money for this, to continue building the enterprise, putin wants to cause hunger in the world, to ban the sale of ukrainian grain, to raise grain prices in the world, to provoke crisis, provoke migration

problems, he has large-scale tasks, he is ready, i would say, to starve half of africa, half of asia, for the sake of his political goals, but he is preventing african countries, no? of course, he does not want to be directly responsible for this, but you remember that they started negotiations about the zard corridor only when in africa they began to say aloud that russia would be responsible for the african famine, until the moment they believed that they would be able to make ukraine responsible, they remained silent and they were just preparing this famine, and then they realized that they would have external political consequences, and they began to tell her this. voice, so it's all absolutely obvious, and when our institutions say that putin wants to organize an artificial famine in ukraine, i

think that this is an absolutely, legitimate conclusion, not only hunger, but cold, the destruction of the opportunity to live normally, this is all a punishment of the population, the holodomor was by and large a punishment, the purpose of which... was not just to reduce ukraine demographically, although that too the goal, this is also the goal that was stalin's and is putin's, but here to humiliate, and also to humiliate and intimidate, that let this territory remain an independent country even there, maybe if we do not succeed in all of it, we can destroy it, but it will be a country of frightened people, by the way, as is happening with georgia, people do not want there to be... war, this is the main task of society, the non-repetition of war, let this war be several times for several days, but the trauma is so great that now those political forces, which

primarily emphasize that they bring peace, they are in the mainstream, there is still a very good example of such a country, this is hungary , strangely enough, the 56th year and all the previous trials of the hungarian people, which led to the fact that they were traumatized, several times the desire of hungarians for freedom was interrupted by the appearance of russian troops, or general pashkevich, the rank of field marshal, field marshal pashkevich, or marshal zhukov, by the way, these are all great commanders of russia, people who won the most important wars for russia and the world, but they still have the guise of hungarian executioners. of the people, that's marshal georgy zhukov, that's him received the fourth star of the hero of the soviet union for the fact that he destroyed the hungarian uprising, few people talk about this , the marshal had four stars, the first for

hulkingol, the second, two for world war ii, and the fourth for hungary, and if we are talking about we don't remember it, so believe me, the hungarians remember it. every hungarian, when he sees the portrait of marshal zhuk, knows for sure that he is the executioner of hungarian freedom, and that it turns out that in this situation, when viktor orbán says, i brought you peace, i guarantee you peace here, he has an audience that understands, how much is it it is important, how important it is not to quarrel with russia once more, god forbid, not to get angry for the third time, relatively speaking, although it is not the third time, so this is also a trauma and i think that this is a deliberate infliction of trauma, and i i admit that the kremlin is now thinking that it is necessary to create a trauma of such a scale for the ukrainians for the future, it is dangerous, this

war, the war and the way it is happening and what goals they are setting, one should not think that it is just like that. mr. vitaly, you mentioned ireland, you mentioned their episode in theirs stories, their hunger, what they. lived and in the fact that they have a museum that remembers this and honors what happened to the irish, this year money was supposed to be allocated for the museum. they said at the wrong time, although it was money that they could not spend on the war, because this, i was also very surprised by this story, because we know very well that we were talking about money that cannot be allocated for the ukrainian army, if we have money at our disposal that cannot go to war, we must use it to to emphasize the national identity of ukrainians, because she needs to understand a simple thing that few people talk about, but it is necessary to... talk about it again and again, we can

win this hot phase of the war, we can save ourselves from this hot phase of the war due to those or other political decisions, when they mature in the civilized world, this is a possible possible turn of events, but winning a hot war does not mean winning a civilizational war. we can then lose the civilizational war. what does this basically mean? if we remain so-called a bilingual state, yes, in which the russian language will remain a priority for many of our compatriots, and it is not a question of whether there is something bad or good in the russian language, as they are now trying to characterize it there, in language, in languages ​​there is nothing at all .

bad or good language is a tool of communication, simply the russian language is a tool of communication of another state, and conveying its different culture, and conveying a different culture and a different mentality, and the russian language definitely has all the rights to develop in the russian people, which lives in russia or in exile, it does not matter, russian culture can be democratic, it can be chauvinistic, it is simply not ours. when i hear from people what they say, oh no need to talk about it. we are just defending the country and so on, we gave up russian culture, and we speak the language we want, then i have a certain suspicion of the schizophrenia of the situation, because you can't give up the culture and speak the language you don't want read writers and poets because you actually you create again such a civilizational abyss for your own children for yourself, man, he does not just use language as a tool, he uses language for and

by and large, by and large, the situation is very simple, either we have a simple choice, or we will be able to come to this ukrainian-centric, ukrainian-speaking ukraine with our own culture, our own historical narrative, or we will remain, at least on a large part of our territory , a russian civilizational province. can say that there are two states in which they speak in the languages ​​of other countries, they exist, if we remain a province, then why are we fighting with russia, that is a good question, well, we can and they will tell you that we are fighting simply for democracy, russia is not democratic, we are democratic, but the following question arises, vladimir putin dies after 10 years, as always happens in russia , everything suddenly collapses, and russia becomes democratic, this means that we do not need ukraine, ukraine is just a refuge for democracy, or ukraine, it is a refuge for

ukraine. well, that's also a good question, i'm talking about what else can i say, there is, there is austria, it, people there speak german, of course , half of switzerland speaks german, but that, but the austrians and uh, the swiss formed as political nations, hundreds of years ago, and all the same, one way or another, austria remains in the magnet of the german cultural field, and if the second world war had not ended, how would it have ended. maybe the austrian nation would not exist, this is the result of political shenanigans, after the first world war, after the second world war, the austrians all the time wanted to be in an alliance with germany, all the time they were told that after the first world war you can’t, and after the second world war they themselves didn’t want it, for clear political reasons, not reasons of a national and cultural nature, but for political reasons they didn’t want to be in the same state with the defeated and they wanted somehow to get away at least from

of the most important consequences, well, they succeeded. likewise, switzerland, switzerland is a union of various small states there, german or franco or italian-speaking, who have agreed among themselves that they will live in such an economic union, and each of these small states respects its language like you you see, the attitude towards the german language in the canton of bern, or in the canton of zurich is different from the attitude in the canton of geneva, where french is popularized and considered the state language, and so on. so in this regard, everything is just organic. now let's look at ukraine, if we still want to win this war, then we must understand that the victories of the armed forces are only... prerequisites for such a real civilizational change, and i really hope that these are the events that were

in ukrainian history, they will give people at least i will try to speak ukrainian with my children, when i see how many people do not do it, do not even understand it, to be honest with me , because i just look to the future and understand that ukraine, which will not be able to to choose a clear cultural and civilizational orientation of the future is not, there simply is not, and this is the question of what we are fighting for, we are fighting, of course, to be a democratic, free state, but ukraine, and this is the most important thing, you understand, states pass.. different stages of development, there are dictatorships, there are authoritarian regimes, there are democracies, everyone aspires to democracy, but the main thing is that the state remains itself , you see, romania remained romania, both in the times of the kings and in the times of the dictatorship of nikolay

cushetsk and now, when it is a democratic country, which is one of the most such, i would say now actively developed, new regions of the european union, but ukraine was not ukraine, that's the trick: soviet ukraine was not ukraine, but such a sham. ukraine during the time of the tsars was a state where everything ukrainian was consistently banned. really, there we saw ukraine, which we could see as a state, 1000 years ago, in the times of russia. ugh. when did this happen? the civilizational demarcation of the principalities of southern and northern russia, when the mongol invasion affected northern russia much more than southern russia, at that time it was still a statehood that could really be spoken of as ukraine, and what happened later, everything possible was done so that ukraine would not was, and now we simply have

a chance, to revive it as self-worth, and it would be, by the way, the most important memory, but about the people who died during the holodomor, if ukraine, during the time of independence, what kind of ukraine is it? ukraine at the time of independence from 1991 to 2004 was simply a renamed soviet republic. in 2004, there was an attempt to start building an independent state, which essentially ended with the revenge of these pro-russian forces in 2010. in 2013 , the ukrainian state was essentially ready for capture, but as they say in moldova , it was a captured state. not by oligarchs, but essentially by pro-russian forces that destroyed all institutions, the army, power structures, everywhere were russian agents. well, in fact, in 2013, this renamed soviet ukraine collapsed and the construction of an independent state began, which, as should be expected, was attacked by russia, first by

annexation, and then by a major war, because the formula is that, and it is also a formula of the famine, that as soon as the ukrainians want to exist as an independent nation , the russians immediately want to destroy them, that is , you can be a ukrainian from the russian point of view, when you sit there under laska, and preferably speak russian, preferably speak russian, you can cook borscht and dumplings, please, go to concerts in honor of the day of the russian police, dance, gabak, very beautiful, that's all that a ukrainian can afford, because he is not ukrainian. some wrong russian, and this is the whole essence of the situation in which we are in our relations with russia , so, but on the other hand, to think that independent ukraine after august 1991 could have been different, i would not, society was very strong , still traumatized, well

, remember how many years have passed since famine in the 91st year, 50, that's two generations, how many years after the war? passed in 91, somewhere 45, 35, that's one generation, 45, yes, 45, well, anyway, 46, there's 60, and there 's less than 60 and, and it was one injury after another , don't you forget about the post-war famine, when the soviet people began to live relatively normally, well, approximately in the mid -60s, until the mid-60s, they simply suffered. do not forget that it was still an agricultural state, there was a huge rural population, the rural population did not have passports, could not move, so they were slaves. in fact, it was again the restoration of serfdom only by the bolshevik regime, again , how could it all function normally, no way, so i believe

that the progress we have made over these decades, taking into account the real state of society, is already a huge progress, and not forget that with the russians, their own traumas and complexes led to the fact that they simply began, somewhere around the middle of the 90s, to roll back, and so far that have already rolled away from the soviet union, they are simply going back to the middle ages to ivan the terrible, and this is also an absolutely obvious story that is, i think it is important, if we compare these two countries, we have to compare ourselves, but we very often love to compare ourselves with poland, with the czech republic, there with slovakia, or maybe we need to compare ourselves with russia or belarus? and see how far we are, ugh, maybe we are not such losers, if you think from the point of view of historical development, what a path we have traveled,

uprisings, revolutions, and all this is huge success from the point of view of flights of state development, we resist and fight in the war, but look at the difficult social situation of crisis , almost all former soviet republics, perhaps with the exception of the baltic countries, crises, international conflicts, authoritarian rulers, everywhere, so from this point of view, i think that if we talk about this civilization test, then for a nation that has experienced such a disruption and such problems, which has actually been the entire 20th century, the destruction of national statehood, by occupation. war next to the civil war of the russians, which they led on ukrainian territory, red with whites, on ukrainian territory, for ukrainian bread, the destruction of the ukrainian

people's republic, the death of zunr, then repression , then famine, then the second world war, then a new famine, then the suppression of everything ukrainian, and this is the whole story, of course, you can tell the story of the achievements, and i can do it completely calmly, but we are talking about reality, reality is what it was. and here we are, against this background of 1991 , declaring independence, as it should have been, we should have immediately become switzerland, the same poles are called, they lived, albeit in a satellite, but in an independent state with the memory of an independent state that existed until the 39th year, no one here had such a memory, memory is important, it must be protected, and in fact, that is why we remind you that today all ukrainians, wherever they are, honor the memory of those ukrainians who died during the great famine, who fought against those who arranged this great famine , we should also always remember these people, because they are real

ukrainian heroes, so we can say the predecessors of those ukrainian heroes who are fighting for our independence today, the candle of memory, it is not too late, it is always lit on saturday at 44, but you can light it right now and show that you remember those ukrainians, vitalii portnikov, lesya vokulyuk, in the saturday dance club program, thank you and thank you for being with us, stay. espresso, hello, this is svoboda ranok, an informational project of radio svoboda. top guest. every day, this is the shipping district, kherson, the inclusion is live, we are somewhere in the vicinity of bakhmut,

we tell you the main thing, on weekdays at 9:00 a.m. we are looking for 12-year-old maksym katunin from the city of kherson. the guy disappeared last november and no one knows where he is now. i really hope that thanks to your care, maxim will be found. look at the photo and remember this face. if suddenly someone has seen the boy or knows something about him. place of residence, do not delay and dial the short number of the magnolia children's search service from any mobile operator 16:30, calls are free, if suddenly there is no possibility call, write to the chatbot of the child search service in telegram. and i would like to ask for a few minutes of your attention, i want to remind you that we are continuing the search for five-year-old yaroslav

maigur, who disappeared in september last year in the territory of the then-occupied kharkiv region, i know that at the beginning of this year yaroslav's grandfather managed to find out that the boy is alive, the man even sent us a video call with his grandson. hello, handsome, he recognized me, he recognized me yasik, how are you, good, normal, ukucha. the guy was apparently taken to of russia, and he contacted the grandfather, who lives in the kharkiv region, only once and is now doing everything possible to find and return the child. the last time the man met his grandson was before the war, because the boy lived with his parents in kharkiv. in the first days of the full-scale invasion, the situation there was quite turbulent, and the family immediately decided to evacuate. we went to china, got evacuated, since there

was no communication there, there was no possibility to leave. kupinsky district, kharkiv region. was not occupied almost since the beginning of the war, so for about seven months mr serhii could not contact the family in any way, but he believed that everything was fine with them, there was absolutely no connection, then he learned from the news that kuprin was liberated, and kuplenska zlava, it seems, is still under occupation, they are a bridge there was blown up, and the dsu could not go to the rescue. let me remind you that the liberation of kharkiv oblast took place in september of last year, the soldiers of the armed forces quickly entered kupyansk, but kupyansk. the node remained under occupation for some time, and it was there that mr. serhiy's family stayed. it is known that the situation in the village was very tense, and at some point there organized an evacuation column for civilians. the maigor family took advantage of the opportunity and tried to leave, but

civilians' cars were fired on on the highway between the kupyansk junction and the village of kurylivka. it was raining. hoped that it was not them, it turned out that they were in this colony, mr. serhiy's daughter died together with her husband, but five-year-old yaroslav survived, survived and baptized a boy who was also traveling in this convoy, it was he who saved the child and allegedly managed to get to luhansk together with yaroslav, there is a man there i spent some time together with my godson in the hospital, and then, it is not known how, he left for russia in the belohorod region, my grandson’s godfather and mother-in-law, and allegedly my grandson yaroslav is there with them from the belorod region , now they have been transported from luhansk, i don’t know how it happened, they don't want to communicate with anyone here, they don't get in touch, i don't know what 's going on there at all, but to this day i can't do anything to return