[000:00:00;00] until tomorrow, stay with the espresso tv channel, all the best, good evening , we are from ukraine, glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program, my name is serhii rudenko, i greet everyone and wish everyone good health, in the next two hours, you will be with us, i hope to watch: our conversation in the verdict program, we talk about ukraine, about the world, about war, about victory, about everything that you are interested in and what you talk about among yourselves, our dear tv viewers, today in the program, the poisoning of marina budanova, who is involved in this and in which the condition of the wife of the head of gur, putin is forced to make concessions, why ukraine is inclined to negotiate with russia and under what conditions it is

possible. the blockade of the border is in the interests of moscow, what are the polish carriers demanding and what is the ukrainian government doing to solve the problem? we will talk about this and other things during the next hour with our guest, politician and diplomat volodymyr ogrysk, in the second part of our program, which will start at 9:15 p.m., there will be people's deputies of ukraine, sofia fedina, mykhailo tsymballiuk and oksana savchuk. however, before starting our big today. conversation, let's watch a video of how the fighters of the units of the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense of ukraine in the temporarily occupied horlivka discovered and effectively destroyed it with the help of fpv.

we look at the kamikaze position of russian machine gunners, which the invaders set up in a tower in an industrial zone. friends, for those who are currently watching us on youtube and facebook, please take part in our vote, today we are asking you about whether ukraine needs diplomatic relations with belarus, yes, no, if you watch us on tv, you can pick up the phone and call the numbers. 0 800 2011-381 for those who believe that diplomatic relations with belarus are necessary in ukraine, no, 0800 211-382, i will ask our directors once again to please show the phone numbers on our tv screens and our computer screens, all calls these numbers

are toll-free, please call, at the end of the program we will ...' we will summarize the results of this vote, and we will have our guest, a politician, diplomat, minister of foreign affairs of ukraine in 2007-9 years, volodymyr ogryzko. mr. volodymyr, i congratulate you and i am glad to see you on our air. i congratulate you, mr. serhiy, good health, i also wish good health to all our dear tv viewers. thank you, mr. volodymyr, let 's just talk about health, about the health of his wife, the head of the main department. where is the ministry of defense of ukraine kyryll budanov, marianna budanova, because today there was a report that she was poisoned, and referring to sources in the main intelligence department of the ministry of defense, several publications first reported about it, and then in gura it was confirmed that she and several intelligence officers were poisoned with metal, heavy metal, as they say,

there is no such heavy metal in the products, but apparently the food got into it, this poisoning got into . this is not the first and probably not the last case of poisoning that has been recorded in countries where russian special services operate and where agents of russian special services work. so far , there is no information about the involvement of the kremlin in this poisoning, nor any details no, i hope that they will, but in however, given the experience that great britain has with poisoning, and the same russia with poisoning, in relation to opposition politicians or opponents of vladimir putin, if, if it is confirmed that russia is involved in this poisoning, and this poisoning will be proven whether the world can finally recognize russia as a terrorist country, and a country that is very dangerous

not only for the whole world. well, you see, mr. sergey, it seems to me that the number of these cases does not play a role here, there have already been so many poisoning, i don’t know, already, in my opinion, we’ve all lost our minds, because, i don’t know, it’s the same, it ’s been going on for years, starting, if we take only the last years with litvinenko, and all the way to navalny, actually, already his own, as it were, but he still had to be killed , i'm not talking about his political views and beliefs, that's another matter, but just his own... the kremlin is being poisoned, both abroad and in russia, therefore, to assume that this is another special operation of the russian special services, i think that it is quite likely, the question, however, is already up

to the specialists who are engaged in this, who they are investigating this case, how it could happen when budanov said that his wife lives, all the time with him in the office. and actually they spend all the time together, well, how can this happen, of course many questions arise, and how the other employees were also poisoned, gurmo, here i already think that their specialists have a say, but this only proves once again and once again about one thing, unfortunately, we have a lot of people... who are traitors in ukraine, who continue to work for the russian aggressor, and this again and again means that we are not doing everything necessary

to get rid of this russian agency. once i was asked about this topic, i answered very simply that everyone, all those who have at least some kind of tangent, should go through the polygraph. elementary tangentiality to what is called a state secret, what is called public administration , what is called the parliament, the government and everything that is connected with making some decisions, and maybe even more, because when we talk about what some in the pews are educators, went over to the side of the enemy, the fact that they immediately agreed to work under russian educational programs, this also shows that they are collaborators, that these are the people who, in fact, only disguised themselves as ukrainians,

actually sat and waited for this russian peace, so i think that we will not get away with such, you know, individual cases, we must either clean ourselves completely, or, well, then we should not ask the question why this is happening. because, unfortunately, the russian agency exists and it works. well, by the way, the security service of ukraine reported that during 22-23 years, more than 2,000 traitors were exposed and more than 300 agents of foreign special services were arrested, and it is clear that in this context i cannot but ask you about what the secretary of the national security and defense council, oleksiy, says danilo, he says that the russian special services are trying to drive a wedge between the civilian leadership and the military leadership of ukraine, but for some reason it turns out that

the people's deputies of ukraine doubt the effectiveness of the military leadership more than the servants of the people, and, danilov says about the agents of the russian special services, you are watching what is happening in the country now and how it is ... the situation is fanning out or, let's say , articulated, what do you think, what could have been done here without the russian special services and without trying to shake things up the situation inside the country precisely because of this confrontation, well , you know, mr. serhiy, continuing your logical chain, we can come to the conclusion that the agents, the fsb, are exactly that. some people's deputies, which is sometimes very difficult to doubt, well, i will just remember one now the last example, when 44 or 46, i won't say for sure right now, people

's deputies are wearing their shirts, in order to prevent the expulsion of the fifth column of moscow in the form of the uoc mp, from ukraine, so tell me, either please, whose agents are they, the pope or? there, the chief imam, or someone else, or the chief rabbi, or they are agents of influence, at least influence. therefore, i think the sbu has something to really do and respond very clearly to all those things, including among those who are still formally in the servants of the people faction, but why are some of these representatives are doing what they are doing, one of the deputy chairmen

of the committee on defense and intelligence, this is really a question, and here it is necessary... are used, but then the question is who and for what, and this is a big problem, because if muscovy manages to kill this wedge between the military leadership and, and the political leadership of ukraine, then the catastrophe is inevitable, and if... look, what is spoken in moscow now propaganda channels, it’s a holiday there, they are already absorbing the topic from head to toe and are happy that finally, quarrels have started between two key political, so to speak, pillars in ukraine, we want it, well , obviously, russia wants these quarrels the parishioners of the branch of the russian orthodox church also joined, you mentioned the demand, or... in the name of the chairman of the verkhovna rada

of ukraine regarding the transfer to the venice commission of the draft law, 8371, concerning the activities of the uocp in ukraine, and among these deputies who signed up for that to carry out an examination in the venice commission, there are 20 people's deputies from the pro-government force, the servant of the people, well, of course, there is the opzh, and i think that danilov and the security service of ukraine have, in fact, where to direct their eyes, if they talk about this internal destabilization , about which moscow is constantly being talked about and hinted at, although these people are sitting in front of their eyes and actually do everything for mr. serhiy here, the only question, only yes, are these people not receiving instructions from moscow, from here precisely for the security service of ukraine is a huge a field for activity, and simply an analysis of which deputies during these last

two years, what they said, how they acted, where they were, this will already give very good grounds for not only thinking, but also practical actions, if of course there is a political will. well, if they don't get instructions from there, then they act as useful idiots , that is, who simply play along in this situation in moscow, or at least the branch of the russian orthodox church, in moscow, mr. vladimir, putin approved the increase in military spending to record since soviet times union, in a year national defense will spend more than, well, the so-called national defense, rather, it is a national attack, will spend 10 trillion rubles of the russian budget, this is 70% more than in the 23rd year, 30% of the entire budget will go to the army and the military industry 20-24, for all

security forces together - this is 40%. budget, the entire pre-war budget of ukraine for comparison was 40 billion dollars, now the entire budget of our country is 90 billion dollars, and 46 billion is now the military budget, and the russians have a war budget of 120 billion dollars per year, that is, as i understand it, mr. volodymyr, that russia is following the path of the soviet union, and do you think that the same end awaits it. because we remember this arms race, which is basically the war in afghanistan and the arms race, they buried the soviet union. well, you see, mr. serhiy, speaking of the budget, we must understand that russia is a country of lies, that is, they never say anything accurate, fair, and correct there, therefore , in addition to these open articles, which everyone is talking about today, there but there are a bunch of closed ones, which are not counted, which are not are taken into account, and then we can say that

the expenses themselves are 10% more. you know, it may sound cynical, but maybe it's really good, because the russian economy will explode from such a burden, given , well, first of all, rampant corruption, we've seen tanks that were covered with egg cartons and everything else , that what was produced and is being produced there, and we understand that the more of this stolen from, that goes... formally to arms and to what is called the russian army, the faster the russian economy will begin to fall, fall already finally, because now it is still , to some extent, holding on due to the fact that it is trying

to reorient itself to the east, to china, to india, to other markets, but again, there are problems with india, china. demands such and such conditions for the same purchase of gas and the construction of gas pipelines, which russia will simply not be able to bear with such expenditures for the war, now the americans finally seem to be moving to the point that they will not just talk about the fact that it is not necessary to transport more expensive oil for 60 dollars per barrel, but they will be punished for it, that is, unfortunately... gradually, but nevertheless, the ring, around the russian, economic throat, it shrinks, therefore, the russian economy has no prospects, as soon as the russian economy collapses, the russian political superstructure collapses, well,

this is a classic from the time of karl marx, so i think that these crazy expenses, they are really crazy, that's what you're right. absolutely , you say, this is a repetition of what happened in the ussr. well, but, mr. volodymyr, judging by the actions taken by the civilized world in various international organizations towards russia, what they count on the fact that russia will be afloat for some time and it will be necessary to somehow cooperate with it, let's say, trade or even communicate, because take the same story with the summit, the ministerial summit of the osce, which is to be held in skop today, the minister of foreign affairs of ukraine, dmytro kuleba, said that he would boycott participation in this summit, since sergei lavrov, molotov, and

vladimir putin were invited there, at the same time, information appeared that on december 1, when the summit, the minister will not fly there for the border affairs of the baltic countries, estonia, latvia, lithuania, and russia, as already reported, blocked estonia's accession to the osce chairmanship, and now they urgently want to make malta the osce chairman, considering how these structures are trying , and the osce and the big twenty flirt, continue to flirt with the russian federation, that, what they want , to support russia, to keep, or shall we say, to keep somewhere on a short leash, to understand that, well, russia is nearby, better nearby , than it will close there and it is not known what will happen to plan, well, you see, mr. serhiy, russia

has been blackmailing everyone with everything for a long time, including the fact that it will actually block the work of the obs. there is, because this structure, built on the principle, on the principle of consensus, one country raises its hand against, a decision is not taken, but actually, this blackmail is, well, you know, one of the foundations of russian foreign policy, in principle, with this blackmail it , took and took, the western world, in the western world, this bubble, which is called obsie, strangely enough , is still needed. a truth of practical importance it hasn't had one for many, many years, it doesn't fulfill any of its functions , which were still prescribed in the helsinki final act of 1975, then, when it moved from a conference to an organization, nothing

changed, because there, this principle blocks everything that is needed for the normal, safe development of this entire space. and that is why they are trying, well, at least somehow, somehow to keep this bubble still afloat, because if they act in a different way, it will really cease its physical existence, and precisely because of that, unfortunately, i think it's an absolute mistake on the part of our western partners, because i think we all understand that north macedonia was unlikely to make such a decision alone, just like bulgaria, regarding the flight of the plane, that , about the number one propagandist in russia, and the impossibility of his participation in this ministerial meeting, therefore, again, this

is not a determination, it is some completely disconnected from reality hope, that russia can be made democratic, that there are still some forces that want to cooperate with the west and therefore similar and so on, this is lulling itself, calming itself, and in fact for russia it will mean that it will trumpet for several weeks, so we will simply observe what russian propagandists will create, and how they will present another diplomatic breakthrough, in the isolation of russia, which will already become a real fact, because if he sits at the same table with all the others, it will mean that he, the actual war criminal, has been recognized by all of them. which are present there, that is, more stupidity,

frankly, i could not even imagine, well and here our baltic friends and partners, as always, show that, even though they are small countries in terms of territory and population, they show the big monsters of world politics how to actually act, well, unfortunately, these monsters are very often afraid of their own shadow and do absolutely not what they should it would be to do with the country that threatens them in the first place. mr. volodymyr, it is clear what russia will gain from this, because it is such an easy rehabilitation of the same lavrov, we have previously seen a virtual speech, or a speech in virtual space, of vladimir putin on the big twenty, and what does the world lose by putting the same lavov next to putin, and what danger does this bring to the whole world, i.e., how safe is it for the same

members of the big twenty, well, xi jinping and joseph biden were not there in this virtual communication, but other countries that consider themselves great and powerful in this world, they were even in the virtual world, but they were close to putin, the same lavrov will be close to the country. which, well, in fact , is also threatened by danger from the russian federation, if you believe the forecasts and those the statements that are in american intelligence, about what british intelligence says, about the fact that russia can go further into ukraine, well, you see, last year poland showed lavrov a red card, and nothing terrible actually happened, he did not was present at the conference in warsaw, what has changed this year, i don't know if

some capitals have come to love russia so much again, and all these fables are being told again, about the need to keep the window, contacts open, and there is nothing to talk about with war criminals , which, what place is not at the table, negotiations, among the foreign ministers of the osce, but what place is in front of the defendants in the hague, and the most important thing is what they are losing, mr. sergey, i think that they are losing, they are losing trust, trust in the fact that these countries really, i mean civilized countries really care about the values ​​on which they themselves are built, the values ​​of respect for territorial integrity, respect for international law, respect for human rights and so on, because how to sit next to with

the representative of the country, where is the child, who is there pasted some tags on e, price tags with the corresponding names, so to speak, imprisoned for seven years, where, where, where the sense of responsibility for the fact that being with such a person, you do not provoke her, in her person, this state to commit further crimes. therefore , you know, this is a question of morality and political will. unfortunately, our western partners lack this political will and very often morality, they hide it somewhere, thinking about the fact that maybe something will come out of russia, well, unfortunately, nothing will happen, we we already see it perfectly next to... with the baltic countries, which block the arrival, or

let's say, do not boycott, lavova, yes, lavrov to the ministerial summit, there was also information today that finland is completely closing the border with the russian federation and demolishing the consulate in turku , they will build a kindergarten instead of the russian consulate there. the minister of the interior of finland , marie rantanen, motivated him by the fact that this is a matter of national security, finland is the target of the russian hybrid operation, she explained, so we see that the finns... lithuania, latvia, estonia, in fact, those countries that know very well what the russian federation is, well, in the former soviet union, but mainly it is moscow, let's say, moscow, they, they perfectly understand what this hybrid friendship leads to, that is,

because the hybrid war waged by russia is spreading, well, first of all to the neighboring states , even though they are under the umbrella of nato, what do you think, this is what the finns and the residents of lithuania, latvia, estonia are doing, or is it somehow will encourage all other participants of the european community to treat the russians accordingly, or as they deserve it, well, i would like to, mr. sergey, whether this will really happen is a rhetorical question, because there will always be those people who will say... these are banal, sorry, chewed the formula that russia cannot be isolated, that otherwise it will become completely wild, it is already wild, and here we are talking only about the level of this wildness and barbarism, which no one needs to prove to anyone, but in spite of everything there will be people who will continue to talk all this

political rubbish and delusion, justifying their inactivity. you see, finland is a huge country with a population of, if i'm not mistaken, 5.5 million people, and it's not afraid to do things that other big countries just can't even imagine, huge germany, which gives us a lot of help, for what we are terribly grateful to her, she is the second, in fact, the second country in the amount of aid in all directions, she cannot give us taurus missiles, why? well, because she is afraid of escalation, she is afraid that this missile will fly to some missile plant, er, somewhere there, on the territory of russia, and this plant will fly into the air, and for some reason there they believe that this will

mean that germany has entered the war, well , sell these taurus through third, fifth hands, to anyone, papua guinea, with the right to transfer , transfer these missiles to ukraine, no, they find thousands of formal reasons not to do it, and everything converges on one person, well, again and again we return to the political decision, and how to act, in this situation, yes, i guess you just have to explain. that is not determination, it leads to political defeat, well, look, if we are already talking about germany, well, this right-wing extremist party is an alternative for germany, it is gaining votes, today according to some estimates it is about 21-22% of germans who support this party,

a logical question arises, why? but everything is very simple, simple... eh, people want to see, at least in words, decisive politicians who propose something, who criticize something, who demand something, and politicians who are both yours and ours, and today and tomorrow , and we'll give it, we won't give it, well y of such politicians, of course, the rating will start to really drop, therefore, even from this domestic political point of view , determination is a sign of confidence and strength, and if you are not decisive, your political career will quickly end, even from this point of view , i think that some politicians in berlin must finally gain this determination and understand that the formula, ukraine does not win and russia does not lose, is a formula for helping the russian aggressor, that it should be