[000:00:00;00] and society, in order for society to keep, you know, still in this state of mobilization, and to still show victories, including internal political components, thank you, thank you, ms. olesya, mr. volodymyr, that's what we're saying and we're trying to explain what's happening right now, and whether it could have happened like this and whether it's not like this, it's banal that there is a rating of zelsky, who, as they say, has dropped a little due to corruption scandals, who are currently in power, there is a rating of the industrious, and the rating of the industrious is a rating from the armed forces, i.e. people they trust zsu, people trust zaluzhny, and accordingly, in this category, are there any, closed, closed sociology, maybe these are the results of closed sociology that we see, maybe we don't know this, but that's why

the yakonomist writes. that there was a very big fall in zelsky because of these corruption scandals, could it be, this is political jealousy, political jealousy is the result of what we see, you know, i am worried about something else, the fact is that the representatives of the parliamentary factions, literally, - mine, weeks, probably a couple of weeks ago, they signed in transcarpathia an agreement, such an inter-factional one, that they er... insist that the election campaign can be held only six months after the end of the war, that is , no one has the election itch, the parliamentary and presidential campaigns are stipulated there, none, none of the parties is preparing for the elections, that is, the nature of this phenomenon, of this attack on general zalozhny, is that, well, obviously there is

nervousness in the banking sector, because there is...' a big recession of the economy, there is a big conflict, a bigger conflict with our local self-government, and he is in the background, well, that's it attacks on general zaluzhny, he is not very noticed by the media, but general zaluzhny simply heads the most important state institution today, in fact, well, complex, such a united power fist, because he is the head of not only the armed forces, but he is now on during the war, border guards and guards, that is, all people with weapons are subordinate to the supreme commander, that is, the commander -in-chief of the armed forces, and these attacks, raids against general zaluzhny, they are connected with the fact that the ukrainians feel that the

zaluzhnomo sees: well, a real leader, who is more effective than the political leader zelenskyi. attacking him now is an absolutely irrational idea, since the legitimacy and rating of the zelenskyi direction depends on the successes of general zaluzhnyi, the direction depends, that is, in this story , the donor of zelenskyi’s legitimacy and rating is general zaluzhnyi, who does not... no, no, no, no political grades and does not show himself as a potential political leader, he now commands the troops and his main task is war. when zelenskyi says in an interview with the sun publication that if some generals want to engage in politics, then let them, well, give up commanding the troops and engage in politics, so we can

say in response that if some politicians... want to engage in war, then let them gather their political credentials, put on a uniform, take a machine gun, go to the army, engage in war, according to their education, which will allow them to take some position in the war, whether a private or a platoon commander, or maybe even a battalion commander, if the education allows, well, a special education allows one to lead a military unit, therefore, in this sense, the bank began to shake the situation , given the fact that, in principle, even local self-government in difficult conditions does not loudly express claims, that is, we do not have any social strata, which is trying to inflame political life, everyone avoids this political life, we recall the story when the wives of azov citizens and relatives

of azov citizens came to the rally to call on the authorities to fight for the faster return of azov citizens from captivity, enough with them, well, i would say the police behaved incorrectly, and the detention and the like. on the other hand, when we see some crazy beavers walking around the cities of ukraine with posters, entering a confectionery chain and starting to raise money, give money to the armed forces, well, it looks like another action of the banks, i am not talking about as the controlled banking media are trying, so to speak, to heat up the situation due to the fact that they even begin to question foreign experts, and whether the political leadership can eliminate the military leadership, and it can, because

in essence, the military leadership is the executive branch of power, and the political power is in a position to change military leaders, only one situation, it can influence the fact that the front will sink and all the hatred will be poured out on the political leadership as a result, they are most afraid of responsibility precisely for the results of military operations, it is very profitable for them, as long as, well, the military command takes responsibility for the front, the civilian government does not take, for example, responsibility for supplies, for the production of defense products, for the development of the economy, for reformatting the economy on military lines, that is, it seems to me that the political power has much more to answer to the military than the military to the political leadership. thank you, mr. volodymyr.

mr. oleksiy, from the point of view of a political technologist, what should volodymyr zelenskyy have done or said in order for these conversations not to take place, well, we are having these conversations not because we initiated them, because we read endlessly, we read for economics, we see that there is some there is a certain tension, there is an outsider who says... that there is no tension, there is stefanchuk who says that there is no tension, and we do not hear this from zelenskyi himself, as the supreme commander, although zelenskyi, i repeat once again, is armed above the commander-in-chief forces of ukraine, valery zaluzhny, and, that is, in principle, it would be within the competence of zelenskyi to come out and say, listen, we don’t have any problems at all, i hear what you are talking about in these broadcasts, why is the western press writing about it, we are the only ones like never, because we have the ukrainian government and the military, and civilians, we want only one thing: victory. well, this is both a difficult and at the same time a simple question, because it is simple in the sense that we are dramatizing the situation too much

, it seems to me that the situation is enough for ukraine, it seems to me that it is absolutely obvious, i am not the only one writing about it day, i don’t see any such demon in the corner, as the representatives of the opposition forces are trying to do there, turning an absolutely insignificant, absolutely non-existent figure into some kind of mere poet of the judges, but this was the task of those who, in the corner of the corner, the task was precisely such reduce the discussion to the point that we are all now experts, journalists, i can see it in tiktok , we are all discussing various topics, that is... the task was, if i say cynically, i will be cynical again, not mine, this is not my relationship to zaluzhnyi or to zelskyi, this is the cynical view of a political technologist, that

for a year and a half, self-censorship lasted for a year and a half , almost everyone had no political life, political life began to fall somewhere in the summer, well, it is understandable for many reasons. it is impossible to act like that, to warm up, that is, the audience in waiting for some kind of miracle, i remember, i didn't understand it then, i don't understand it now , there was massive trolling there, booking hotel rooms in the crimea, there was a parade, preparations for the parade in moscow, well, of course, what against such a background with there are huge expectations, and when these expectations are not met, questions arise that are difficult to control. and it is absolutely logical that the political leadership wants to be on the same level as the military, you know, so that this sanctity of the military disappears, so that the military does not they are wrong, the military are saints, the military are fighting for the country, but these

embezzlers, corrupt officials and so on are to blame for everything , that is, to omit the discussion, it is extremely equal for ukrainians, but when have they already started, when will they talk about i don't know, about '. where, where did he hide the plan for the 24th year, who, i don’t know, who is there, what is his wife, and who did you see in the headquarters, in the general staff, besides the military there and so on, that is, this discussion is already endless, as it were there were no opponents, it performed its function 100%, absolutely, the discussion was settled, or it will be useful, well, again, i understand very well that if our political leadership, not even political, but the service, the service of the political leadership is thinking within the framework of the election campaign, then everything is absolutely logical, and moreover, i am sure that with of course, no one

will fire this logic, because it is suicide. zuluzhny must be kept until that time , well, again, i say this as a cynical polytechnologist, when everything can be hung on him, well, we don't know what will happen next year, in principle, yes, we do not know what agreements we will go to, we do not know, when i hear all these words, a long war, how long is it, you are ready with that, well, roughly speaking. yes, here are all these questions that are asked to the civilian leadership, they can also be asked to the military leadership , so when they will be, when they will finally be there, as some say they will lower the age of conscription, when they start call criminals, that is, a lot awaits us, what is mobilization in the economy, like us we can imagine, that is, a huge number of questions for which there are no answers... ideas in principle

, and you know what it's like, tomorrow zaluzhny will show, show the plan for the 24th year and everyone will be fine, everyone will calm down, say, well, that's great, we're going with it, that is, it's a continuation of our political tradition , absolutely the one we're used to, it's just that for a year and a half we had such a situation of freezing, when we kept all our emotions, all our thoughts, and as everyone says so, i say the same about myself. i did not criticize zelensky, i did not criticize power, held on, so kept himself in his hands, and now it all starts, and they decide , that is, they, to finish, they solve the problem so that it does not look like there are untouchables, it is the military, and there is a political leadership that everyone can kick and spit in this direction, now everyone can do it, thank you, mr. oleksiu, after a short break we will return to our conversation, this is what i am saying to our tv viewers, don't switch, it will be

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tool. friends the verdict program continues live on the tv channel, we remind you that during this program we are conducting a survey, we are asking you about whether, in your opinion, there is a conflict between the civilian and military leadership of ukraine, yes no, please vote on youtube, as well as during telecast with mobile phones if you think that there is a conflict, call 0800-211-381, not 0800 2011-382, all calls to these numbers are free and at the end of the program we will sum up the results of this vote. i remind you that olesya yakhnov, volodymyr tsibulko and oleksiy holobutsky, the best political experts of ukraine, are our guests today. who today analyze the situation in ukraine, because there are a lot of topics that are either political or close to politics, another topic that is quite important is the future of the branch of the russian orthodox church in ukraine,

this week it became known that more than 50 people's deputies of ukraine appealed to ruslan stefanchuk, the speaker of the parliament , with a request to send the draft law that was already...' given in the verkhovna rada of ukraine to the venice commission, well, in this way, these people's the deputies of ukraine want to get a conclusion, and to put it simply, to block , obviously, the consideration of this law, or for this law to enter into force, at the same time, today the metropolitan of the ukrainian orthodox church, pavlo lebid, known as pasha mercedes, came to the court, and the court sentenced he is under house arrest until january 29 in pechersk raisudd, the capital. lebid claimed that he was never on the side of russian aggression and did not support it, let's listen to what he said today, in god's name, a fair

decision, and that the prosecutors' office does not press for a trial, because i i already looked, i had more than 80 trials, that's why i thank god for everything... i thank god, but i ask that the lord understand everyone, because i say once again: "i did not do anything for which i am being judged today, this is unfair. ladies and gentlemen, well, obviously, until the end of the war the entire church will say that they never had a relationship with a branch of the russian orthodox church, meaning the ukrainian orthodox church of the moscow patriarchate. mrs. olesya, how do you feel about the fact that it is already the second year. the great two years of the almost great war and 10 years of the ongoing war, which was started by russia, we know that these people , whom we now see in the courts, they worked and work for the russian federation, and they never came, they

received orders from putin what threatens ukraine with the further existence of the russian branch orthodox church in ukraine? well, there are several levels, this one. problems, first of all, there is an individual level, we have heard many precedents when certain uocp priests could keep weapons and so on, that is, there is , well, concrete cooperation, regardless of what laws are adopted, and is prohibited whether or not the uocp is banned, this is the first level, and there should be unconditional responsibility here, if there is evidence of specific individual cooperation of certain uocp clerics. the second is the level of the buildings themselves, which is very correct finally, the kyiv-pechersk lavra transferred to the ocu, in the same way, this applies to the process of transition, where it can be ensured voluntarily in the form of a manifestation

of community initiative, and this is already a legal aspect, how to regulate property rights, so that simply this process is voluntary and was marginalized by itself, and finally the third level, it is the most important - it is the very structure of the uocp, when in our country, well, in theory, on the one hand, the church is separated from the state, and on the other hand, we are in conditions of war, where in russia the church obviously there is well, not just as one of those troops, yes, if you can say so, but simply a concrete...' instrument in the war, when cyril blesses this war from the very beginning of the full-scale invasion, and in this case, when the priests they say that we are not involved and we have never, no, had nothing to do with it, then you have to understand that anyway, well, the canons,

yes, they provide that it is constantly mentioned in the prayers, even, well, there is a surname, a name, cyril, as the patriarch of the russian orthodox church, and it is already in this way, well unification and perception, so it seems to me that it is really important to legislate, yes, to prescribe certain steps, i think that to begin with it should not be called the uoc mp, but the roc in ukraine, which corresponds to the correct status, and that would contributed to the natural marginalization of this church and the reduction of parishioners. i.e., if it was good without any additional legislative steps, well, it could be the next stage, well, there are already more. strict prescribed legislative steps, but it seems to me that it is very important that parishioners and in general

ukraine had an understanding that this is not the uoc mp, but that this is the russian orthodox church in ukraine, because anyone who has at least a little understanding of the statute, how it is about, well, how yes, how churches operate, despite the declaration of autonomy, about as they often like to say in the uocp, one must understand that their mother church is located in moscow. and well, this autonomy is very limited and it is still tied to russia, so very clearly, it seems to me, this needs to be articulated, and here at the level of the name at the legislative level to be changed, because moreover, we know that uoc they are themselves sometimes they call it simply the ukrainian orthodox church, not even adding the moscow patriarchate, thus trying to mislead some part and further, and society. that we will be even more autonomous there and so on, so here, well, it seems to me, from this it is necessary, well, that

the name should be regulated very clearly and that it marginalizes and promotes the voluntary transition of both clergy and parishioners, and further, if it will already be in such a quantitatively marginalized manifestation of the russian orthodox church in ukraine, well, it seems to me that it is possible further watch. the next step, how to act, because if it's just, well, ban it, well, that's also an option, but i think it may take some time, considering the complaints there and so on, but that's exactly what i said, yes the perception from the name that this is the russian orthodox church, it seems to me, would be very effective and in itself would work to reduce... both parishioners and the voluntary transition of clergy, so that in fact, all these statements of the swan and

others, that we are not involved, we are never there, we are allegedly against the war there, yes, that's all aimed at this, in order to supposedly fight back, realizing that even in prayers , the name of cyril is mentioned there every day, but this level, it is the most difficult, it is legislative, well, if only it could be regulated and that it would be effective and that it would not drag on for a long time in time thank you, mrs. olesya. mr. volodymyr, the russian orthodox church in ukraine is such a large and serious network. 10,000 parishes, in principle, is already less, well, less, but, but from the point of view of managing this network and using this network, why i actually you and i ask because you were all engaged in elections in one way or another, well, apparently, the orthodox church was also engaged in elections, always supported one or another candidate or you or other forces,

well, in sermons, in conversations with parishioners, maybe someone is just holding this, net big before the next elections, or why there is no political decision on the branch of the russian orthodox church, well, first of all, previous experience shows that this network, more precisely, this network is religious, it campaigned exclusively for one police. if not for the communist party, then for the party of regions, lebid himself, as far as i remember, was a deputy of the kyiv city council from the party of the region, the fact is that the servant of the people is the youth of the party of the region, and they understand very well what propaganda and campaigning opportunities this church network has, which is why they are looping, they are postponing the ban, so to speak. her, why, because

they are counting on using her in the elections, but it seems to me that here everything is already entering into such a complex conflict between the states that not getting rid of it before the elections in this network will simply be uh, well, what can you do shoot, the authorities can in this way, because he is very well-known a letter addressed by the head of the sbu, malyuk, to the parliamentary committee, where he says that the sbu proposes to supplement and expand the law. i would like to remind you that the good, high-quality law of mykola knyazhytsy, the parliamentary majority carefully pushed aside and produced its very optical law, where it is possible to really ban the church network if there is, and with proven collaboration. the sbu proposes to supplement it with additional articles, such as terrorism, introduction, violation of the customs of war, that is, there are serious

articles, and in addition, he, malyuk, announces about the fact that the sbu is currently conducting 65 criminal cases against the representatives of this church organization, 20 or more of them for treason, there are articles for possession of weapons, for calls to, well, the state system, regarding the overthrow of the state system, and even for child pornography, imagine, well, a real church, in principle, modern, sorry, this is such a joke. but well, in principle, the russian real church, well, everything is completely clear. mr. oleksiy, if very briefly, please tell me what they are trying to block to skip the draft law, or through venice, well, this is not accidental either, and obviously, there are many questions for those people who do this, well, moreover, i am sure that they

will most likely succeed in this, because from the point of view of the venetian commission europeans. of course, freedom of religion and national security are, well, for them, this is an issue for some countries in the 17th century, for some in the 19th century, and even in the 21st century, it is difficult for them to think about such things, so to speak, so they will probably stop , and why, why this is happening, well, because, well, what if... to talk specifically about agents, there are agents , then there are huge connections in the russian orthodox church, listen, i am an acquaintance of mine, who, let's say this, had the opportunity to be at the birthdays of this a handsome bearded man, and a scoundrel, pavel and their leader, this scoundrel, i forgot him, how he was out there, so all these

politicians were standing there, it was not 13, no... a year, so it was 5-4 years ago and all these patriots stood in embroidered shirts and in whatever they wanted only patriots, yes, it’s normal, and well, again, it’s money and influence and relationships, and it’s not even known, so to speak, yes , of course, that’s just the way it is, i have the impression that there is some kind of desire, it’s all a matter of dragging it out , of course, they don’t maybe no one can deny that the russian orthodox church is bad, but they want to, i see it not only by the way in this church direction, in many others, well, here is the war, well, another six months, well, a year, well, a year and a half, yes, well, something will end there, there will be peace then everything will be anew, so to speak, until the 21st, 22nd year, and maybe even until the 14th year, of course, thank you, mr. oleksiy,

that's the end of it, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your participation. in the program, olesya yakhno, oleksiy holobutsky, volodymyr tsybulko, i was glad to see you all on the same air, and thank you for being with us. so, today we conducted a survey and asked you, our dear viewers, whether, in your opinion, there is a conflict between the civilian and military leadership of ukraine. please display the results of the survey, telephone survey on the screen, we will now see what the proportion is, yes 77%, 20. 3% say no, on youtube the proportion is 81, what is, 19 what is not, on this, friends, i put a full stop, it was the verdict program serhiy rudenko, i wish everyone good health, take care of yourself and your relatives, see you tomorrow at 20:00,

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