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a day, my congratulations, this is svobodalai, and today we will talk about what ukraine should do to become a member of nato. the corresponding plan was agreed today in brussels, as well as numerous statements from the eu capital, in particular, about the lack of a military plan by the military leadership of ukraine, as well as about politics. which encourages putin to continue the war. about all this and not only during the next 45 minutes. my name is daria kudimova. congratulations. the russian president putin's full-scale invasion of ukraine was a strategic mistake. this was stated by nato secretary general jen stoltenberg at the final press conference after the meeting of the ukraine-nato council at the level of foreign ministers . at the same time, the disappearance of attention to ukraine will be fatal. it's already. and the head of

the german foreign ministry, anna lena berbock. she added that the future of ukraine lies in the eu and nato. and that is why it is necessary to do everything possible to support her on this path. well, i will add that in brussels, where the two-day meeting of ministers of nato member countries agreed on a reform plan for ukraine's promotion to nato, and we will ask zoryana stepanenko more about this decision for ukraine, she works in brussels. starry the ukraine nato council , debuting at the level of top diplomats after the vilnius summit, confirmed the intentions of the allies to continue supporting ukraine, none of those present at the table had any doubts about the need for help, the us secretary of state said at the end of the meeting. some, said antony blinken, without mentioning anyone, they specifically ask whether allies from the us, in particular, should help on the eve of the second winter, which is also predicted to happen.

difficult for ukrainians. on behalf of nato , the secretary of state assured that they have and will be at a time when further financing of ukraine's military needs has been suspended in congress, and repeated this further process in the interests of the united states, in particular. i didn't hear a sense of fatigue or retreat, on the contrary, i heard a determination to keep moving forward and for good reason. i think every ally recognizes that this is a question not only of the right. deeds, but also their own issues interests, in particular for the united states. with the approach of winter, russia, according to the secretary general of nato, has accumulated a large missile arsenal, with which it is again trying to damage the energy facilities of ukraine. against this background, many ministers made mock calls to mobilize aid to ukraine. meanwhile, her achievements were praised, emphasizing that they should not be measured only in square kilometers. the russian fleet, the allies said, had moved away from a profitable sea route. the transportation

of ukrainian grain was broken. russia suffers great economic losses, losing its usual markets for its energy resources, the general secretary reminded, but also political markets, according to stolteng, rev's influence is weakening not only on its neighbors, but also on the caucasus, in asia. russia is also becoming increasingly dependent on china. year after year, moscow pledges its future to beijing. militarily, russia has lost a significant part of its conventional forces, hundreds. planes, thousands of tanks and more than 3000 victims. however, at nato headquarters, at least on the sidelines, there was a lot of talk about the so-called impasse on the front. foreign journalists, bombarding the ministers with questions, drew attention to the fact that none of the parties, they say , can move the line between them . they asked if a territorial compromise was possible, minister kuleba rejected it and added that there was no dead end , speaking about the results of the meetings behind closed doors, he said that everything went even better than with help and all ministers

felt the need to clearly state that no what fatigue from the war in their countries, in their governments. uh, it's out of the question, and it can't be, and it was, uh, it was very important, we could to keep silent, but directly, well, this was, i think, one of the two key theses, speeches that i heard, discussing the future membership of ukraine in nato, kuleba presented to the allies a plan of reforms for the next year, which must be implemented on the way to al yansu the partners provided their recommendations and approved the ambitious. general secretary stoltenberg said the program for next year. the reformation of the western defense industry was also discussed. according to kuleba, eu and nato should combine potentials and integrate ukraine into this system. these agreements are still verbal, and it is their ukrainian language the diplomat called the most important result of the day, adding that

it will take time to speed up this industrial flywheel, but when it spins up, it will become, according to kuleba, more powerful than the russian military machine. from brussels. zoryana stepanenko, marek hayduk. glad freedom. oleksandr musienko, head of the center for military and legal research, joins our broadcast. alexander, good evening. congratulations. good evening. i congratulate you. stoltenberg says that nato membership has become closer for ukraine. do you share such optimism, well, actually reformation, which is provided for in the plan, will it affect the war, or vice versa, the war caused what is written in the plan, somehow affected what is written in the plan. i think i did. closer, because obviously the criteria for membership in nato, they coincide in principle with the criteria for membership in the european union, and since we already have an interim approval opinion from the european commission, well i mean interim, because with the aim of

making a final decision, that we need a decision of the european council, i hope it will be in december, so we can say that these criteria are on candidacy and on membership in the eu. they coincide with the criteria for nato membership, so maybe this is what jen stoltenberg means when he says that ukraine has come closer, because these are similar things, from the point of view, if we are talking about military and security, we are definitely getting closer systematically, because our work with the alliance continues and will continue, and it is at different levels both from the point of view of the training of the ukrainian military, and from the point of view of the exchange of information and the transfer of intelligence information on the part of our partners, ukraine and from the point of view of technology and weapons, because ukraine is extremely quickly mastering the nato standard now, and from the point of view of the future, now this is one of the elements that was discussed, you heard, it was just said, in the story that it is

a defense-industrial complex, and that's exactly these are also, in principle, determining factors, because we are getting closer to the fact that integration from the point of view of the production of joint... well , joint production of weapons and solutions in this area, it should also be, so i think that convergence is coming, this certainly does not negate the fact that there is no consensus in the alliance that er, so when ukraine is to directly become a member of nato , first of all we understand why, because of russian aggression and because of the ongoing war, but from the point of view of increasing the level of support and from the point of view of increasing... programs under which ukraine and nato work together, the rapprochement is noticeable. but here, you know, i want to draw attention to the words of kurst volker, the former ambassador of the united states , moreover, former representative of the united states to ukraine, which he said during a press conference in the european parliament, let's listen, i'll ask a question. convinced,

that nato policy today inadvertently sends a signal to putin to continue hostilities, because we say that ukraine will become a member in the long term, but we cannot bring it into. so as long as the war continues, it is an incentive for putin to continue the war. i really think it's time for us to send the exact opposite message, that ukraine will become a member of nato as soon as possible. this will mean that there will be no way for ukraine to lose. then for putin, the continuation of this war will be pointless, and for russia - destructive could ukraine's membership in nato end this war, and what are the chances that nato is considering such a scenario. basically, that's a good point by kurt walker, i agree with it, but the problem is that what i or anyone else agrees with is not enough, because you see, many people in the west will unfortunately disagree with that point, because i i'll explain why, because look, now

ukraine's accession to nato means that article five should apply to our state, that is, the members of the alliance should support us, not just by supplying weapons. and directly military with the help of its troops, that is, participation in hostilities together with ukraine of nato member countries. is everyone ready for this consensus? maybe some. and ready, it is true, but for this it is necessary that everyone be ready, 100%. and we understand very well that such a position is unlikely to be shared by, for example, the prime minister of hungary, well at least , so there are difficulties here, and the next point, after all, that is, this is what i am leading to, if our partners answer themselves when asked whether they are ready for direct military action confrontation with russia, to the direct and direct support of ukraine and they will say yes , then of course ukraine's accession

to nato is possible in the near future, although , you see, mr. volker says, as soon as possible, as soon as possible, this is also not a specification of time frames, that is, when through in a month, in a year, in six months, it is also not completely clear, it also always leaves room for maneuver, for discussions, manipulations, etc., so it is a barrier for today... a day that many partners do not want to cross, but what they start talking about, they they are starting to talk about the fact that let's maybe come up with something now, well, i mean the article by andres rasmosen, former secretary, secretary general of nato in the guardian, where he said that maybe, let's consider the scenario of taking ukraine in nato without spreading article five on collective security in the occupied territory, well, that is... speaking of the fact that the entire territory of ukraine, which is not currently occupied by russian

troops, that is, the 81% that is controlled by the ukrainian authorities, the government, is sovereign, on them applies, those do not, but still it leaves quite a lot of questions , and in any case, this stops us from later military liberation of these territories, because nato will put a block on us, i am sure of it, that is, it means that we we have to come to terms with the fact that yes , otherwise, de facto, without de jure, because no one recognizes these territories as russian, but de facto these will be territories where russia will be, as it is difficult to say in reality, and therefore, now you see, more and more such moods appear in various publications that let's consider different such scenarios, negotiations, so the russian strategy now relies solely on dragging out this war as long as possible, here i agree, just drag, drag... time, expecting that skeptics about the future membership of ukraine in nato and the time frame when

it should to happen, and in what procedure, with which territories , within which territorial boundaries, so that such skeptics become more and more, that is why they will prolong this war, of course, here kurt volker is absolutely right, let's talk about other statements, but nato today denied statement that they made a statement, more precisely, that the ukrainian military leadership does not have a plan for war, they denied the statement, and a high-ranking military official of the alliance spoke about this at a briefing, and it is clear that this is a reaction to the recent statements of the deputy bezugliu, which allegedly has not provided a war plan for next year, the question is what kind of plan it might even be, given the, well , huge combination of factors that affect how events develop on the front, and in general, what does nato know about the war plan in ukraine. alexander, can you hear me?

we seem to have some small technical problems , we will try to reconnect now, but for now i will remember one more article in the economist, it is just a continuation of what mr. mosienko was talking about, but a new article appeared in the economist , which writes that, in which it is said that russia is ready to take advantage of signs of political discord in ukraine. tlip patu on the front, well, what can actually be about here , these all kinds of possible scenarios, negotiations, which are talked about from time to time, including western media. while we try to reconnect with mr. osienko, i suggest you watch the material from my colleague borys sachalka, the plot from borys sachalka, he was actually ahead of the curve: he was at the front and asked the servicemen of the armed forces of ukraine what they thought about the so-called resurgence i, peace or

a temporary cessation of war with russia, further in the material from the frontline from correspondents of the present time. the focus of repetition has come. yakov writes down the coordinates of the next target, about whom they say a highly motivated military man, motivation is added by the story of his genus grandfather was disarmed and sent to siberia. there is an ideal chance, our grandfathers will not get old. i have this chance to use this to bend those who have always oppressed our people from the beginning. yaquivi with calculation gets positions in the direction of the criminal, holds thanks to the trophy cannon, her name was lariska, the cannon, the cannon was called lariska, yes, it really hurt us to read that, so we renamed her our manner more like what they called, brendi love, brendy love , and i didn't know, i understand, you know, yes, well, she's simple

in 1989, you, well... production, birth, so to speak, and what is it, yes, let's skip it, here's the plot, wait, it's alcohol, the truth is, no, i don't know who, it's some pardozinka, guys, i didn’t understand at all what an allotment is, so absolutely , it’s a double actress, news from this direction appears periodically, the ukrainian military is telling, the enemy is intensifying, just conducting... they start shelling, they start spending the bull, they already become not so bold, a lot of trenches are dug, dugouts, defense points, but at least what the muscovites know how to do is they know how to dig, they know how to dig, they know how to dig, and as much as they have dug, it is possible

to walk through the crime scene right here in the trench, yes, this is very, very difficult for us to attack them like that, nature also helps the russian troops in these areas, there are many forests, they slowly gather forces in the forests, build fortifications , trenches, dugouts, entrench themselves there, and then try to make sorties from there, shoot like a grenade, shoot well, cool. falls, so exactly, the first, in the first place, sniper, ugh, second, third, fourth, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth go where they belong, in almost two years of full-scale war, the yakov brigade passed the hottest areas of the front, the military does not hide, there is fatigue, but everyone has their own arguments

to cope with her, i have a small daughter, one and a half years old, a woman, it is very difficult, because you are not around, i want to, well, miss all these moments, that, probably now, i think, and there is a bigger question , and the problem is not only ours in general, that people don't know how long they have to serve, shot, i ask this from many parents, well, that is, dads, you would like your sons to fight, why did i come here so that they don't fight, this should end already if it were ours. generations, if you pass it on to the next children, then it will be completely over, there is no need to do this, at the front now they often discuss what to do next, there is a lot of talk about the rear, which, it seems to them, has become reminiscent of the war, they argue whether it will promotion, and if not, then when they go home, there is now a lot of talk about possible peace

negotiations, huh, what do you think, to actually reconcile, it’s also such a ambivalent feeling, because well, if it’s good, the negotiations, and what not... will end, well, too, and if they end conditionally there in the ato zone, then the question is what is it all for it was, with such people, how they negotiate, i believe that not only puttm through the cannon, then the best agreement, we have such a, well, such a saying is will or death, and if the whole situation will be given too much blood, unfortunately, negotiations will be a better option, we cannot prove everything to, as they say, to the war was going to the last ukrainian, no, that’s not possible, i think, but in principle , the situation is now that these peaceful threshold speakers, my god, a shot, borychalko, serhiy dekun, for radio liberty, oleksandr mosienko, head

of the military-legal center of research, returns to our air. mr. oleksandr, i mentioned the vzaikonist article while we were trying to re-establish contact, about the fact that putin can take advantage of the situation of political discord, so to speak, against the background of the stalemate at the front. in addition, reuters with reference to high-ranking officials the state department also writes that the usa, knowing the low probability of a peace agreement next year, has confirmed its support for ukraine, and that the president says that putin will not go to peace, pending the results. elections in the usa, and there are two questions here, firstly, whether he was meeting in view of the lack of noticeable successes at the front, could he have been meeting, well, and secondly, if the state department voices this support taking into account the kremlin, then there is also no such a scenario is ruled out, well , the kremlin clearly stated this, remember, there was a military collegium of the ministry of defense, and he spoke there

shaigu, the minister of defense of russia, he said that russia should be ready, well, the armed forces of russia, to fight until 2025, well, that is, precisely in anticipation of the fact that they are openly waiting for the elections in the usa, they are now, i think, actively watching. . are rubbing their hands due to what is happening, for example, on the ukrainian-polish border, or due to the fact that now, as the elections in slovakia have passed, for example, er, very, i think, so self-absorbed and self-confident, they are monitoring the situation in in the netherlands, whether, for example, wilders will become prime minister, and what kind of government he is will form, which he will be given to form there, i think they are inspired to watch the statements of orban, who continues to broadcast them that the country is not capable of defeating russia and should not have been supported, that is, russia is counting on this, they are really counting on waiting out the situation

- a change in the situation in the west, and this is just a calculation even for the year 2024, even if we take the increase in these expenditures that they made, in fact, these expenditures are intended to give them the opportunity to actually maintain the level of hostilities at that level in to which he goes now, at least at least, that is. to provide ammunition, weapons, and pay their own, mobilized, so-called contract workers there, from different battalions, etc., well, in order to hold on, and i think that in the united states, it is absolutely correct to analyze and talk about the fact that at least before the presidential elections, they will not be in the usa, ready for any initiatives there, another question is what peace initiatives could there be, when russia stubbornly declares that the minimum of them to their negotiating position is

recognition of new territorial realities, i.e. to recognize four ukrainian regions, ukrainian territory, part of the territory of russia, which of course no one will agree to, and it is in principle impossible from the ukrainian side, so under these conditions, i think that the calculations of our partners, i.e. now what i see and trace, they... are also to a certain extent inclined to the fact that they should try to wait out putin, because here are these statements from the point of view of the supply of weapons and the fact that we will go somewhere else, well in all directions, to strategic defense, although in we are still carrying out offensive actions on the left bank of the kherson region, in fact, and the level of providing for our needs is also at such a level that let's try to wait out putin and exhaust him. and by the way, when secretary general naoltenberg says that russia is increasing, that is, spending, plans to increase the production of weapons , etc., etc., he also calls on the west and

nato partners to listen, so we should not be distracted, in fact to be observers in this situation, as well as to increase our production in order to be able to provide ukraine on a larger and better quality level in the first place than. russia has its own troops, and that's why it seems to me that right now, when they talk about russia's strategy, about the fact that russia has a long-term strategy there for decades, in fact, they are now measuring their planning horizon for one and a half to two years, 2024-2025 year, they have hopes that the situation will definitely change in the west, plus they will fuel, i am almost sure, certain conflict situations in ukraine, spread propaganda. in the west in order to take advantage of this and what they believe to be

to incline ukraine to some, let's say, compromises that would at least somehow suit russia, in the west they also analyze and understand this and say that listen, you can't give putin such a chance, because i, frankly speaking, with all the skepticism expressed there some analysts, i just can't imagine how the west can now turn away and tell ukraine that that's it, we won't help you, it's at least for the next year, it's definitely not a realistic scenario. heard, oleksandr, thank you very much for joining the broadcast, oleksandr mosienko, head of the military-legal research center, was in direct contact with us. thank you. thank you. inaction that cannot be forgiven is how donald tusk, who may head the polish government in december, commented on the activities of the current polish government and assesses it. or the situation with blocking the border with ukraine. i would like to remind you that since november 6 , there has been a protest by polish transporters on the polish-ukrainian border, they demand to restore the permissive border crossing regime

for ukrainians, which was canceled by the corresponding agreement with the eu. the strike caused several dozen kilometer-long queues of trucks at the border with poland, the waiting time for which is sometimes up to 10 days. and about the latest situation on the polish-ukrainian border , we will ask our colleague radio liberty correspondent in poland natalkasastska with us in direct contact. natalya, congratulations, i have a word with you. good evening, colleague, today there are no queues at the border, but there are 2,500 trucks on the polish side, and there are two reasons: some of the drivers, in order not to stand in the blockade for weeks, went to the borders with other countries, it is also known that the protesters began to pass more than one car per hour, a little more, sometimes seven, but in general the situation remains very difficult, and it arose due to the inaction of the government, exactly the statement of the leader of the democratic opposition donald tusk, the polish agency

prasov quotes today. according. the authorities, in particular moravets and kaczynskii, played the ukrainian card unsuccessfully. tusk is convinced that such inaction cannot be forgiven, because it endangers polish-ukrainian relations and there is no defense of polish interests in this. in the matter nothing is being done about the crisis at the border for too long, and this is what the former president of poland oleksandr kwasniewski believes. he was the head of poland, let me remind you, for 10 years and he has his professional vision of what is happening, please listen. it is scandalous that these drivers are waiting so long in difficult conditions, it is winter now, they need a normal toilet, a shower. in my opinion, the morovetsi government should have started this a long time ago, it is necessary to talk with two sides, we need to talk with kyiv, with ukraine, to see what can be improved there. it is also necessary to talk to brussels so that this transfer of goods, that movement was normal.

of course, it will always be difficult, because it is the core of ukraine and the eu, and therefore it will not go the same way as between the eu countries, where there are no borders, but i believe that these conversations should continue. i am afraid that in the next two weeks this interim government will not do anything. if i were in charge of poland today, i would do everything to reduce such conflicts so that there would not be such traffic jams on the border, because there is already war fatigue on both sides, and this only adds to the undergrowth in fire. the full version of the interview. with mr. kwasniavskiy will soon appear on the resources of radio liberty. returning to the border, the newly appointed minister of agriculture of poland, anna gimbicka, who went there yesterday, said that the situation at the border is difficult due to russian aggression and the lack of responsible eu policy. she offered farmers additional payments in the amount of 1,000 zlotys, which is more than 9,000 hryvnias for each hectare with corn, and an increase in the fund for

low-interest loans for farmers. a few more questions in the discussion process, so she said gimbitzka, the polish minister of infrastructure was supposed to meet with the carriers blocking the border today. also today, this issue will be actively discussed in the diet, but the final decision is not yet in sight. colleague thank you natalia. natalka losatska from poland was our point of contact regarding the situation on the polish-ukrainian border. well, just now myroslav cech is joining our broadcast, he is a polish politician, a former deputy. in the republic of poland, journalist and historian, mr. miroslava, can you hear me, good evening, yes, good evening, i can hear you very well, excellent, but here is the thesis that poland played the ukrainian card unsuccessfully, as tusk says, in your opinion, it was really an artificially provoked conflict, and could it change the situation, more proactive, let's say, the position of the polish government, and why it was not there, if so, of course, what is being played, because

it continues to be played, the anti- ukrainian card, the actors are known, the tools are known, the methods are known, the goal is also known - this is the weakening of friendly relations between ukraine and poland and efforts at any cost prevent the coming to power of donald tusk, who will become the future prime minister of poland in the middle of december, he is a friendly politician towards ukraine, of course, a polish politician will defend polish interests, but at the same time he firmly adheres to that ukraine, like the entire european union and nato, must help ukraine, and therefore this blocking of the border, er, blocking of transportation to and from ukraine, is also intended to weaken ukraine's preparation and the strength of ukraine during the winter period, because it is different