trends indicate significant structural imbalances in the labor market, the nbu notes, let's add economist khodovskyi, head of the analytical direction of the anc network to our conversation. mr. ilya, we congratulate you. good day. to begin with, what challenges would you single out for yourself as the greatest in the ukrainian labor market? and then we will talk about how to deal with them, maybe. this is a challenge for qualified workers, some of them, especially women, have gone abroad, accordingly , there is a need in this context that these people, today it is necessary to find a replacement for them. the second point is that workers are mobilized, especially technical specialties, and as a result of this mobilization, some enterprises cannot find the key. key people to their positions

, that's why they raise their salaries , in order for them to have such a financial incentive, after all, to go, according to them to go to work, and then it's a question of, well, a crazy need, once again, of qualified workers, this especially, labor specialties, this is also a shortage of personnel, and this shortage of personnel is significant, why, because we have... we have , as i have already said, these two main challenges, and the second one is another one, it is such structural changes, structural and regional changes as a result of the war, what we have closer to the front , enterprises there simply do not work, what they could, they relocated to the west, accordingly, the situation in western ukraine is more or less normal for them, the supply is sufficient, wages are high, there are many people, that is... in other words, the situation in in the west

of the country is acceptable, and the situation is closer to the center, to the east of the country, to the south of the country, closer to hostilities, it is there in those enterprises that are even in relative safety in relation to the front, they have problems hiring employees, because people are not all ready to return, but still believe that there are certain dangers, etc. , therefore the most important thing is, first of all, to create jobs and restore the enterprise. to provide security, to offer high wages, respectively, and it was then that leveled the situation negatively, which is now in the labor market. ugh. mr. oleksiu, you indirectly touched on the topic of post-war reconstruction, reconstruction that is already underway, and you are absolutely correct in pointing out that in some places there are no workers even for this reconstruction as a matter of priority, and who is it to do this work, as for post-war, yes, in our country there is a very big vision, a big vision of how we will restore and, in general

, not even restore, but certainly what to do anew , whole settlements, because it has been said repeatedly, to renew like this, or in general a new project, or simply to rebuild from scratch, if we don't have someone who can perform that function then, and don't we come to the point where we have to, we've just talked about it many times already, that there is one of the plans for the future that we'll even have to bring in there, e.g. , citizens of other countries, but let's be realistic. it is not excluded, i would absolutely not exclude it, because we are from the usual economic trends, yes , supply and demand, we will not get anywhere if there is a demand for production specialties, and there is no supply from the labor market, well, this offer will be to be covered at the expense of foreigners, it is absolutely obvious, this is business, it is, well, physics in the end, this is the principle of connected vessels, you will not get anywhere from this, but of course we

must understand this problem and minimize it as much as possible if we talk like this about foreigners, from which countries it can be people? well, yes, it’s absolutely obvious where there are very few non-ukrainians, of course, who speak ukrainian abroad, it’s usually most likely to be russian-speaking, it can most likely be central asia, maybe partially middle east. maybe even africa , well, less africa, i think, after all, on the eyes of the countries of the post-soviet space, there will be a focus, well, because there is some kind of at least verbal possible communication, that's why it's faster, that's why society, we already have to communicate with it, that we really have these problems, well , look, again with regard to technical work specialties, now the government is doing, and it is doing it absolutely correctly, an emphasis on

technical education, on technical specialties, and here on the relevant secondary education, and in principle for quite short time we can to train a sufficient number of... its qualified personnel to cover these basic needs, that's it, but there are other, more complex issues, engineers, doctors, english speakers, people in all fields, we understand very well that if people speak english, then it is with it will be a great advantage to try yourself somewhere abroad, well, even more so in the format of a war, yes, well, let's be realistic, again, some will return, some will demand... it is in the public sector in local self-government bodies, but salaries abroad, there take britain, the states, canada, germany, and even poland , they are not commensurate with those that these people are highly qualified with a good knowledge of the english language and, in principle

, foreign languages, they are completely different, that is why we must absolutely comprehensively build accordingly this latest policy both for qualified personnel and, respectively, for technical personnel, mr. ilya, in fact , the question is very similar, you know, we only spoke before this, well, last broadcast about the fact that now the initiative of our country's leadership is to, that means, more people know english, and these will be requirements for public sector, there for law enforcement officers , and for the armed forces, for officers, and for customs officers, and here mr. oleksiy actually said a thesis that i also thought about, but somehow, we have a strategy, the state is aimed at learning english language , which may in the future provoke an even greater outflow of people who know a foreign language from abroad of our country, is there not some specific problem here, and returning to the attraction of personnel from abroad, i also wanted your point of view, well, the first point , regarding

english language, then you need to understand that then it will be easier for a foreigner to work with ukraine, that is, when you arrive, it will be easier for you... to negotiate, you can work calmly with the staff, you can, and so on, so in no case the language will be the reason why a person there, for example , decides to go abroad, the main reason why people decide to go abroad is a question of the standard of living, if inside, by the way, they said that there, for example, from africa, sorry, well i will dispel one myth, i will dispel which, which concerns what there are, for example, africans there, they are good workers, they are terrible workers, well, try to hire them, they will not work normally, but we create certain illusions for ourselves that there

will be workers who will want to go to ukraine and will work there like ukrainians for those the money that is available, there will be no such thing , that is, the situation there is such that there are people who want it, but... it is not enough to work, it is objective, because then it would have long been taken over to other countries more safely, which have a certain potential . mr. ilya, we will also talk about how to work with different categories guest workers, if we are going to invite them , a little further, and now i have a question for mr. sergey marchenko, mr. sergey, if we really say that we lack highly qualified personnel, then where and how to get them, is it really from our own... to nurture them , improve their qualifications , retrain, is it possible that these guest workers are qualified, then we can name what kind of people they should be, from which countries, what profession, what qualifications, it is possible to bet on them, your opinion, well, look, rather

everything, if we talk about migrants, then for ukraine the way is asian migrants, these are the people who will go first. here, and i think that, most likely, there will be few qualified personnel among them, and those people who are qualified, as you correctly noted here, are unlikely to know the ukrainian language and are unlikely to be able to fully apply their knowledge here in practice without knowing the language, it will take years, and i think, i think that there is no need to invent a bicycle, now the government is inventing some programs, inventing some government orders, it seems to me that all the energy it is necessary to involve the government and the state to create good conditions for doing business, when there are good conditions for doing business,

new businesses will be created, these new businesses will need people with engineering specialties, and business has shown itself very well as a forge of staff. it is business that takes people without experience and turns these people without experience into specialists, because everyone knows about the problems of our higher school, about the problems, especially big ones in recent years, there were very big problems specifically with professional education , with technical specialties, because those vocational and technical schools that existed before , this network has already been destroyed, what came to replace them, it does not fulfill its functions due to a lack of funding, because the training of technical specialists is a large material base, it is necessary, in fact, to have your own machines , their cars, all this costs money, their maintenance also costs a lot of money, and universities. and educational institutions simply do not extract it, unlike them, business has its

production base, business has real cases on which people learn, and therefore, if there are conditions have been created for business development, business , believe me, will find a way out of this situation, it will find people, it will train them, and we will be both with business and with qualified personnel, thank you, thank you, mr. serhiy, serhiy marchenko, the founder... of the recruiting agency borch, a recognized expert on the labor market, was with us, thank you for your expertise, yes , mr. oleksiy, yes, by the way, i will continue what pangay said, and accordingly, what accents should be made, yes, the accents should be the following, that yes there are large enterprises, and there they need to train a certain number of really technical workers, this is the so-called cluster approach, yes, that is, if we are in... the south of ukraine, we will still yes, as you rightly said, update, reboot, in general there, well, business,

let's say there recreation, yes, it is possible to attract investments in the same international gaming business, well, there are many promising plans right now, so right there in this cluster you need to create or update existing ones according to new ones, yes, because there are many requests. will be from hotel complexes, from recreation centers, from sanatoriums, it is a cook, it is, again, a lot of technical specialties, so it is necessary to increase the number of state orders, for example, it is necessary first of all to define clusters, that is, in which territory, in which there are needs for educational specialties, and for that people who may have already passed the basic course , passed the first course there, maybe one and a half years of study, could already work in parallel... and gain experience there, so that when they are already ready specialists, they

can simply continue to work there without any problems they have already worked, this is a very modern approach that is used all over the world, in our country, for the most part, there are some enterprises, there are some branches of the economy, and there are educational institutions that are simply detached from them, which just there graduate someone, whom the market in that place , for the most part does not need, or may not need, this history needs to be thoroughly studied, these clusters should be broken down and educational institutions reformatted, then people will be interested in learning and they will understand the perspective, they will understand that they will definitely be employed, and then the quality of this personnel will increase accordingly. mr. ilya, do you have your recipes, your vision of how to transform the labor market so that the balance is preserved, maybe just the same model as mr. oleksiy proposes, maybe you have your options, mr. ilya is now in touch we are joking, mr. ilya has certain problems

with communication, but mr. oleksiy, if we are talking about the prospects for the future, then it is definitely worth saying that in any case, ukraine should try to return its people, so for that , to replenish, so and so here we are talking about what steps can already be taken, in particular, by the state in order to stimulate ukrainians to return and fill this labor market, it seems to me that the incentive is to say, come, we now have a sufficient number of jobs, well, this is one of the arguments, which can actually affect it, one of the arguments, but in order to, the safety factor, excuse me , let's type, this is it, yes, we don't take it, it's already so to say, well, or a part, we already need a part now, so that the verna will return , and we will spend it, and part of it, of course we will try to drag abroad, so to speak, even after the victory, that is, it cannot be said that this policy is exclusively aimed at returning people after ours... even now ukraine also needs them, but will

a person who has already been socialized there agree quickly , who has already found a job, i am not talking about those who are just sitting on benefits, yes, there are also a lot of them, here, but what are they there, sitting on benefits, which are in large numbers, these people, people who have returned to ukraine, also , will not immediately go to work on second day, it's totally obvious, right? that is , those people who work there, we need them to work for us, yes, but there must be trust, this communication must be restored between the state and the people, and simply, when even... it will work out, well, whoever yes, the minister of social policy will come out and say: friends , look, here are the specialties, here are the average wages, here are the specific positions that our economy needs now, please come back, some will return, and some will continue to think, because there is no such communication, it is very weak, at first, well

, from the experience, let's say, of those countries in which many citizens live outside the country, this is israel, this is azerbaijan. it's armenia, it's ireland, and so on and so on, communication links need to be built, that is , even a separate state agency is created, in some countries even whole ministries are created separately, where through a single, electronic platform, this action can be continued, in we have serious work to do here, so that consulates and embassies constantly find everyone, i emphasize, every ukrainian outside the borders of ukraine was given a service so that he understood what the state thinks about him, although he may live in peru, that is what is important to the state, what he thinks, the state is waiting for him, it is important for the state what he thinks, and his vote in the elections is also important, but if we build this communication, then believe me, many people will return, well, this is a very beautiful vision, in fact, we can also hear the opinion

of oleksiy myroshnychenko, the president of the confederation of employers of ukraine, mr. oleksiy, congratulations , our etheri, but for the beginning, before we should work, how the state should work with those who left, with those highly qualified workers and employees whom we want to return, together and jointly rebuild ukraine, implement the largest construction project, probably, which awaits us for all the years of our independence, before that i will ask, since you are the president of the confederation of self-employers, what challenges are currently facing... business, entrepreneurs, employers of ukraine in general? well, i think that this challenge has probably already been talked about, more than two times and more than three times, and my colleagues spoke about it, it is really a lack of qualified personnel, specifically skilled labor professions, these are builders, these are drivers, these are seamstresses, electricians and so on, other, other, this, i

think, is probably one of the main challenges , the second challenge, i think the difference... in wages, if you look at the average wages in business, the budget and in the fop, you will see that this is really a big problem, and the budget sphere is starting to compete with business for the flow of personnel , moreover, the budget sphere has a privilege, it is armor, armor, and this is also the problem that the business is facing, we have cases where employers, unfortunately, hire people of conscription age, because he literally in a few days receives a call for mobilization, and this is a problem, here we need to think seriously, it is possible to revise the issue of personnel reservation specifically for critical branches of the economy, and how should this reservation take place, in what percentages,

please explain how you see it? a difficult, difficult question, you still have to look. on what this enterprise gives, or for energy supply, or for food supply, energy, construction, and so on, here you have to think about approaches, and maybe, maybe some professions should already be returned, if this is really a possibility, but it is more visible with the armed forces, because the reconstruction of the state, maintenance of the economy in a normal working condition. and we see that both the state and our international partners say that the economy should revive, and we should think less about external borrowing and rely on our own strength. mr. oleksiy, but when you talk about armor , obviously, you are talking primarily about strategic industries, as far as i understand, those without which the state, especially in the conditions of war,

it cannot cope, that is absolutely correct, it is life, it is energy, it is construction, well, everything related to the state functioning normally and providing heat, providing water, providing food, providing communication, education, by the way, health care, these are the critical areas that should be, this the balance must be maintained, ugh, mr. oleksiy, here is another question, we we are talking about who is missing now, but if you are now, well, we are now being watched by people who are just now choosing their future profession, and we understand that they will complete their own studies there, for example, there in four years, if it's about higher education, there we talk about five, six there, if we take a magistrate there, for example, if we look far into the future like that. yes, and again, in the context of the likely post-war reconstruction, what specialties would you advise to choose in order to be exactly in 5-6 years in demand on the labor market, is it difficult

to predict? no, it's not difficult, i think that we need to be realistic here, we need to change society's attitude to professional education, professional-technical, professional education, because in our country, over the past 10-12 years , you can get a higher education at any cost, this is sell a social elevator, it will allow you to be better, to find a job, but unfortunately, this is not the case. and we see the consequences, this year, only 101,000 children entered the professional education system, unlike the higher of education, somewhere around 4000 children, and this is a problem, how can we change this trend to submit, this is a very important work of everyone, and parents, and us as employers, and education systems and means. mass media, you've seen a lot of films about, let's say, the popularization of working professions, i haven't seen any in the last few years, we're talking about some others,

we won't talk about everything, but builders, electricians, locksmiths, turners, this is something without which ukraine will definitely not happen, and career guidance, by the way, in the 27th year, a new specialized school, the children will already be somewhere 11th-12th grades, career guidance begins there, it is necessary to talk about it and tell them realistically what profession to get, what the salary will be, where he can get settled, what are his prospects? yes , in fact, i think, to everyone who considers working as an unpromising profession there, i advise you to somehow call an electrician on the internet, yes, i recently came across it, and you will see, in fact, that it is quite a promising profession, thank you oleksiy marushnychenko, president of the confederation employers of ukraine, joined our broadcast, thank you, and... mr. oleksiy, in fact, how to change this attitude towards working professions, so that, well, these, this profession, he was respected, friends,

it seems to me that we should expand the framework a little, from purely technical professions to any professions that are in demand now on the market, and this question is not static , that’s right, it is constant in dynamics, and the closer we are to victory, the closer we will immerse ourselves... in the process of renewing our country, the more the more and the more dynamically these priorities will change, as far as i'm concerned what is missing now is some kind of inter-branch, let's say, yes, maybe an agency, maybe an application of the economy, what was driving yes, as the needs of employers, the needs that go through the respective target associations, yes in different branches of the economy, and on the basis of these. needs were formed by the state order, that's what we talked about, in which direction we are going now, let's say, uh, well, the dynamics, yes

, the dynamics are now going in the direction of technical specialties, we noted that, that is, the government understands the trends, it reacts to them, it changed during the war, yes, well, even before the war it has changed, but the question is different, a lot of things are rolling, you understand what the point is, but really the question is there, let's say higher education, it should be... a privilege, that is, either this person should study super well, or pay for this is a lot of money, or please go for free to those directions that are now important for the economy of the country, and the ratio, in my opinion, should be, well, somewhere around 70 or 80 by 20 or by 30, yes, that is, the lion's share - it has to be the state's priorities, specifically by order of the state, yes it will be easier for people, so it will be easier for children. easier , they will understand their prospects, they will understand that this way they will go to study for free and they will understand that they will clearly go to the workplace, after completing the relevant

training, a small example, here i communicate a lot in the field of education, i am a professor myself, yes including the rectors, i won't say what kind of educational institution this is, but it's a medical university, i'll say it right away, just so you understand the full depth of... this issue, i'm talking to the rector, i say look, our association of local self-government bodies is ready to take you according to the needs of communities, people are already there , from the fifth year, well, when they start to acquire practical skills, you know what the rector tells me, but in principle, we don't have that in indicators of the ministry of education, therefore, we do not deal with the further issue of employment, even those who studied on the budget, on a large scale. and there is no such interest in them, we just have to break this principle, we have to understand that those for whom, for who is paid by the state, the state form of education, they definitely owe it to the state

to work, and this is the interaction of the university and, accordingly , the association and those employers who are ready for it, respectively, to lobby for it and then pay for it, so here we don’t have that, that they are united by some single platform, some single coordination center, and unfortunately we are now rushing into different fields, oh, today we need builders, let's make builders, oh, tomorrow we need welders, run to make welders, and the set of policies that b reacted accordingly to the market, to the needs of stakeholders, which could reconcile these positions in the balance, unfortunately now there is no, to what extent the state should interfere in general, let's say it does not interfere in the amu, it encourages, it is not interference, it says what question, go to a technical specialty, study, look for

a job yourself. according to your wish, if you study super well, please enter a higher educational institution, if your grades allow, what is the interference here, on the contrary, she prioritizes, well, i will say archaic maybe an example, yes, but do you remember how everyone there used to want to become policemen and cosmonauts, yes, and pilots, well, that was also part of it, today we have a whole, whole broadcast of the 90s comeback, i still want to become an astronaut. well, these were teachers, doctors , policemen, well, the police, now, yes, policemen, these were respectable specialties, and the state did, formed the whole image, so that a person from childhood, when he wrote an essay, there in the fifth grade, who i want to become, when i grow up, so that they write, a pilot, yes, there, studied, positive promotion of the profession, of course, but now, unfortunately, there is almost a vacuum here, like, like this vacuum.

to close it, how should it be closed, so that again , returning to my question, so that the working profession is respected, it is not only a high-wage profession, it is in society, there must be communication, a reassessment of values, but they spoke by telex, the only one, this is, in principle, the only coordination center that should deal with promotion and cooperation not only with mine economy, let's say, but also with changes in social policy, changes in education, yes, when we talk about the implementation occupational specialties both in higher education and, accordingly, yes, in technical specialties, this is a huge complex, this is a whole state strategy should be in the development of the fact that we have a real correlation between what the market needs and what educational institutions issue, respectively laid down so that this debit converges with the credit as much as possible, if we get to this, then

believe me, our real market ... it will flourish and wages will constantly rise, because not due to the fact that there is no one to hire , and at the expense of great competition for one position of several qualified employees, but in fact we should strive for this, and above all now, of course, we should make and continue to emphasize technical specialties, which you mentioned, mr. oleksiy, here, finally , i want to return to the topic of return ukrainians from abroad, so we are creating conditions for development in the profession, there is a security factor, what else can we talk about, yes, what steps is the state taking now, because we understand that you and i have also repeatedly talked about the fact that now european countries, in particular, in order to solve their demographic situation, they are trying to integrate ukrainians into their own society . , they cleverly integrate, yes, of course, they supported us in the first period,

provided social benefits, even provided housing there, yes, and so on and the like, for which we are of course super grateful to them, but look what they do now, those who need qualified workforce, yes, they need an able-bodied population, and then they look at who will be there in a year, in a year and a half, well, how many are abroad, who has shown himself the most brightly, effectively, work, of course, who works, who for which who works in the professions, who receives what salary, and look at the fact that in some countries of the european union, they are already canceling these social statements of payment of unemployment benefits to displaced, well, in fact , refugees , and from ukraine, not only from ukraine in general, they are not canceling these payments of people to people who are there work that is, there are fewer of these payments, because the person works, but they continue to pay them, that is, they prioritized themselves, those who missed out: