minutes, the situation at the front and the failed counteroffensive plan, what a general with combat experience says about the war, we analyze together on bbc ukraine, i'm olga polomaryuk. i wouldn't say it's a stalemate because it's a war. the former mainly. the commander of the armed forces of ukraine, viktor myzhenko, believes that it is necessary to go on the defensive and completely reformat the front. he told about this in an exclusive interview with the bbc. he almost does not give interviews and very rarely communicates with journalists, especially now, during the full-scale war of russia against ukraine. viktor muzhenko, army general, former.

commander-in-chief of the armed forces of ukraine. it was he who led the ukrainian army when russia annexed crimea and invaded donbas. and in february 2022, he helped organize the defense of ukraine, worked with valery zaluzhny. we spoke with him to better understand the events of those days, the beginning of a full-scale invasion, to analyze current events, the situation at the front, and also to understand where the war is going. they spoke with viktor muzhenka. bbc correspondent oksana torop, she asked him many questions, we're only going to show part of that conversation, but before that, here's what my colleague had to say about that interview, let's listen. we decided to talk to the former chief of the general staff of the army viktor muzhenko about the war, as he is considered a military commander with extensive practical combat experience. muzhenko was appointed commander-in-chief of the armed forces back in 2014, when russia annexed crimea and donbas, and for the next five years and

until the change of political power in ukraine, he led the ukrainian army, which at that time already fought in donbas, his merits at that time are evaluated differently, many consider him a strong military leader, others on the contrary criticize him for his decisions, for example, regarding the battles near ilovaisk in august 2014, when hundreds of ukrainian soldiers were shot by the russians, and these podi... entered ukrainian history as the ilovai cauldron. but despite all this, everyone agrees on one thing, he is a general with practical combat experience who not only planned, but also personally participated in military operations against russia. that's right muzhenko told us that early in the morning of february 24, 2022, when russia invaded ukraine, he went to the general staff, and then offered his services to chief valery zaluzhny. and then to help in the

command post of the military command for the next two months. we asked viktor muzhenko about the beginning of the war, its course and possible further development. they asked why, in his opinion , the counteroffensive of ukrainian forces did not produce the expected results, and they also asked about what risks the public conflict between volodymyr zelenskyi and valery zaluzhny poses for the country. the conversation with viktor uzhenko is already available in text format on our website. bbc ua is highly recommended to read, and the full video version is available on our youtube page. the conversation is long and interesting, be sure to watch it. well, actually, what did the ex-chief of the general staff tell us about the course of the war and the possible development of events at the front, about mobilization, and why the counteroffensive did not give the expected results. we collected the most important from the conversation with viktor uzhenko. there were very high expectations from the counter. which everyone talked about a lot

and, in your opinion, why did he not give the results that were expected, what were the miscalculations, mistakes, i would not say that there are no achievements, ukrainian units, ukrainian soldiers, commanders really did, i would say a miracle by and large , because in the conditions of unfavorable physical and geographical conditions, in the absence of superiority in the air, in the presence of a significant superiority of the enemy's firepower, in the presence of deeply buried kilometer-long minefields, the ukrainian troops still pushed the russians , taking into account the fact that the defense they occupied was essentially enhanced by its capabilities in terms of fortification equipment, that's what the ukrainian servicemen did, what the servicemen of the armed forces of ukraine, i think, that not every

army, and perhaps not a single army in the world could do such a thing, do you agree you with the fact that the situation at the front today is at a dead end, i would say that the situation is at a dead end, because this is a war, there are not only victories here, there are inkels, there are also defeats, there are not only successful advances here, but also deterrence by the enemy , including us, but not here only offensive, but also defense, i believe that today the urgent question is to ask questions about the transition to defense, to defense, strategic defense, active defense. which provided for the launching of counterattacks, the reconnaissance of these strikes under the conditions of appropriate success in the appropriate directions, counterattacks at the level of the appropriate units, and so on, but we need to reform the front today, the reformation

of the front is what you mean, just go on the defensive, right , first of all, or what the formation of the front, i mean the creation of appropriate operational groups and the corresponding, let's say , battle orders, the creation of an appropriate management system and so on, because today we know of cases when in certain directions there are dozens of parts of units that are locked into a single regional administration, in such a situation it is simply impossible to carry out high-quality timely management, to respond to those risks that arise, if we talk about tactics. russians, how would you rate it, something was unexpected, for example, what you didn't get from them we waited, in general, evaluating the russian army before a large-scale invasion, we planned combat operations with it in a slightly different way, well , understanding that this was such a serious effort, and that

we saw that they came in again with the same old equipment, the one that remained since the soviet union at its core, there were some new models, etc., but we still see literally a year and a half later, how the situation has changed, we also saw the latest rep systems, very powerful, we also saw the corresponding powerful long-range missile systems, here we are saw a number of new models, and a number of new possibilities were demonstrated, and it all changed literally in these one and a half years, that is... how much can we adequately react to such changes in the situation that is currently developing at the front and in general in this war, the war for ukrainian independence, the war for the ukrainian nation, because that is how the question stands now. well, the next difficult issue is

the question of mobilization, well, then the military officers are corrupt, then people complain that they grab men just on the street like criminals, and what is going wrong in this direction. in your opinion, i think, if we say so, to answer in one phrase, then this is probably non-compliance with the requirements of the law on mobilization preparation and mobilization, which i mean, the duties and functions of all state authorities are clearly defined by that law, this a complex event, which is carried out not only by the military, not only by the tsk, to whom everyone has now paid this, let's say, attention, focused attention, who are now being made guilty of all these sins, those they have and do not have in a big way, and this tasks of all bodies state power, all institutions of the state, including non-state such structures,

perhaps even as a church, which should form in citizens, in citizens, a conscious attitude to mobilization and in general an understanding for what purpose it is being carried out, i have already called, yes, the war for independence , during the existence of the ukrainian nation, now it is possible that the urgency of this issue is a little lost, and this is the problem that exists , according to this law, state authorities, local authorities, including heads of enterprises, are obliged to organize notification of people, and heads of enterprises, bodies of local, village councils, village councils, etc. they are still obliged to organize the delivery of conscripts to tszkan, but this is not being done, that is why we see these military patrols who, in excess of their respective powers, let's say, walk in the cities, on the streets, which is a violation of this

law, and in this situation, even today, there is probably no complete understanding in my opinion, why, because i literally last week in my opinion, the lviv regional council made a decision, to allow representatives of territorial centers of social support staffing to check documents on the streets, who is the regional council. does the lviv regional council have such powers or not? is it prescribed by law or not? why do they delegate their functions in such a way to territorial assembly centers. why, removing themselves from responsibility, they place these responsibilities on the structures of the armed forces of the ministry of defense, this is not correct, there is a problem in this. now the question arises, how many should be mobilized, like them must, let's say so. to be used, the number of people who will come for mobilization

does not determine combat capability, does not determine the capabilities of the armed forces, but the presence of integral structures, brigades, divisions, corps, we do not have divisions, corps, that is, the composition of the relevant groups, the presence of armed military equipment and the learning of this these people, and perhaps those terms that i understand that it is not leaving. because of the good life that exists today, they are not enough for high-quality professional training of personnel composition, including, in order to be able to exploit, that is, competently use the equipment and weapons that are provided, let's say, by state-owned enterprises, which are in service with the armed forces and which are supplied by let's return to the situation at the front, your predictions, and what should be expected next,

uh, could there be a frozen conflict, you know, there is a saying of sunzi, if the forgiver has enough strength and for some reason asks for a truce, then he has some secret plans, i mean russia, which is now there everybody, so, well, let's say, is presented as a peacemaker who is willing to go to negotiations and so on, including the statements of their political leaders, including their president by and large, that's not the case, and i think that's really, a trick to , in order to give an opportunity to rest, to give an opportunity to strengthen their capabilities, to give and then radically resolve some issues, for example, the complete possession of the territory of donetsk and luhansk regions. therefore, i

think, that is, it is impossible to go to negotiations. yes, including what is literally, in my opinion yesterday, or even this morning , information appeared in the moscow times that putin signed a draft budget, a defense budget, which is 70% higher than the budget of 2023 and 2.3 times higher than the budget of 2022. so what is he preparing for, for an armistice or for war, i don't even have a continuation, i think that before war, let's move on to the conflict between the political and military leadership, we are all witnesses of tense relations , lately between the president and the head, on in your opinion, what are the risks, for the situation as inside the country and at the front? there is a clear understanding, which is legislated, of subordination, the commander-in-chief is subordinate to the supreme commander-in-chief, the president of ukraine.

the president of ukraine, on the proposal of the minister of defense, appoints the commander-in-chief and the president of ukraine dismisses him without a proposal. this is stated in the law on the basics of national security. what can be the conflict here? if there is a misunderstanding of different points of view, then they are agreed upon and clarified. and it should be a conversation not through mass media. it should not be wine in public plane, it should be a tetatetic conversation, when certain accusations are presented there, certain misunderstandings are presented, they are all either resolved or not resolved, and then the president can make any legal decision, i believe that this problem can be removed literally, as they say at once, making a statement that he has no political ambitions. viktor muzhenko, ex-chief of the general staff of ukraine, and this is only a fragment of an interview with him, but a full one. the conversation is already available on our youtube channel bbc news ukraine. well, that's all

for today, see you on monday, all the best. greetings friends. this is the verdict program, we are working live on the tv channel, we are talking about the main thing today, today in the program. the discrediting of the diligent at any cost against the head of the armed forces, which the scandalous servant achieved with his reproaches. mint concrete will definitely be enough, ukraine will strengthen its fortifications in all directions, who will build them? revenge of putin, who is behind the poisoning of the wife of the head of the gur mariyana

budanova. friends, during the current program we are conducting we ask you about this, whether does the west want the defeat of russia? yes , no, please vote on our youtube, it 's quite simple, you express your opinion by voting with two buttons, if you sit and watch our telecast, you can pick up your phone and vote if you think the event wants the defeat of russia, or seeks the defeat of russia, then 0800-211-381, no, 0800-213. 72 call, all calls to these numbers are free, today the best ukrainian journalists are guests of the verdict. olga len, host and author of the chronicles of information war tv program on the espresso tv channel. hello olga. good evening. bohdan butkevich, tv and radio host, author and host of the censornet youtube channels and the bisyky show.

bohdan, i congratulate you. i congratulate you, and you, and we are waiting for the inclusion of anna miroshnichenko. journalists of the fifth tv channel and we hope that she will join our program, but while there is no anna miroshnichenko, let's ladies and gentlemen, in the format of a blitz poll, try to answer the question that we ask our tv viewers, whether the west wants to defeat russia, olga, well, it’s still the west, you know it is not run by some government, as the conspiracy theorists like to think there, it is very different this event, and i think that the problem is that in some certain, maybe there circles of the west, you know, they formulate that they want the defeat of putin , but somehow they still can't understand that putin and russia are actually one and the same thing, and you can't get

putin's defeat and not get russia's defeat, the reformation of russia, what. you need to think about it, and not try to somehow, you know, delay this moment, or somehow avoid it maybe he himself will die, or maybe something will turn around, well, this is, you know, the way to nowhere, in general, of course, but now, this week, henry kissinger died, well, here is the man who actually created, such a whole the direction of western political thought, which in principle was based on somehow negotiating...' with evil, with such systemic evil, that is, somehow trying to reach some long-term agreements with it that would guarantee something to someone, every time it turned out that they guarantee nothing to anyone, they end up leading to even greater evil, i think that it's just this, you know, this political school, unfortunately, it didn't

run out, but kissinger at the end of his life, at the end of his life, said that ukraine should be in nato. by the way, well, to his , well, you know that, again, this is only one quote in one place, before that he said a lot of other delusional things, come on, which came down to the fact that you need to somehow find, in general and in general, some kind of understanding and give russia some piece of world domination, well, in 100 years you could say everything, he died he was 100, in the 101st year of life, bohdan, how do you think the west wants to defeat russia? well, first of all, i completely agree with ms. olga that there is no collective measure, this must also be understood very clearly by everyone, there is a different measure, there is even europe, this is far from the only story, the americans also have slightly different views on what it is, how it should look, from my point of view , our biggest problem is that

the west does not want in general, in principle, everyone, does not want the collapse of russia as a single geopolitical territory. nothing has changed in that sensei, everyone is very afraid on the one hand, if nuclear weapons are uncontrolled, and on the other hand they, if we take the americans, then i completely understand that the americans, you mentioned kissinger once, so let's remember kissinger and his ideas, he always saw the world as such, you know, a certain triangle, america, russia, china, where america always has to be friends with someone against the other corner, which is starting to rise too much, well , roughly speaking. uh, so i'm quite willing that even the same americans, except that they really do not want to destabilize such a huge territory, they are also afraid that the collapse of russia, this, roughly speaking, means a sharp strengthening... of china, which will strengthen at the expense of everything that russia has, including nuclear weapons, so yes, on unfortunately, they continue, as i understand it, to adhere to the point of view that russia should, like, get

from the basket, yes, but this does not mean that russia should collapse and cease to exist as a state, to our great regret, well, but this is again well, it's the law of large numbers and so on, well look, we live in the real world, i hope everyone has already understood the price of this ... moronic constant shouting that tomorrow russia will collapse, nothing will happen and so on. normal experts said from the very beginning that the collapse of russia is a very long story, that certain problems will begin in the summer of the 23rd, they will begin, then real problems will begin in another year, then in another year, that is, it is fast will not. if you have paid attention, the americans have now adopted yet another plan to drastically reduce oil and gas revenues of russia by 2030. i understand that the event is quite possible, even the american elites have decided that what worked well at one time with the soviet union can work perfectly with its much weaker version, which is russia, but for us this is bad news in that in the sense that no one will give us the opportunity

to break russia so badly that it would cease to exist there right now, well, but this is reality, friends, in general, ukraine is in a very difficult situation now, unfortunately , our chances are much worse than they were a year ago that's why, well, this is reality, i 'll repeat it again, you know, you can dislike kissinger , but here's what i really envy in his picture. you know, it 's not that out of bounds, it's just that pragmatism with a very clearly defined border, which sometimes borders on cynicism, but if you remember, we all like to remember goldumey, that moment when kissinger came to israel, oh, he was coming, he was talking to goldeimei, where, and he was coming to israel then during the doomsday war, and he was very clear then that yes, of course i am a jew, but i am first of all... at the moment the secretary of state of the united states of america, then i am a citizen of the united states, and then a jew, but i will tell you frankly, ukrainians need to learn this cynicism, without this cynicism, pragmatism, we

we will never be able to survive in this very harsh world, where nobody really needs us but ourselves, and it's a shame that so many people don't understand this and hope that there are some good uncles in the west who are just running around looking for how to do good in in ukraine, guys, everyone wants good for themselves, just the understanding of good is different, you know, they happen. such as russians, but there are, well, people who understand that they must somehow not have their children, well, they must somehow live in such a way that, i don’t know, heads are not cut off, that women are allowed to have abortions , if they want it, well, one should not get into the soul of others, but this must be understood very clearly, otherwise everyone still thinks, well, we don’t like moscow, but now we love washington, no, we love brussels, but next we who will we love, we must love ourselves, friends, ourselves first of all, well, it seems to me, i completely agree with you, you know, there is such a thing, but i agree with bohdan, here is what, well, actually, kissager is also in it some professed such pragmatism, but there is such a myth that

exists to a certain extent about a proactive policy of the united states, well, let's just, well, you know, at least recall history a little, well, where is it proactive, the united states of course, well, it is a democratic country that is completely it is based on the fact that you need enough of this, you know, backlash. to turn public opinion in one direction, in another direction and somehow work with it , in order to enter the second world war , they suffered for three years, it took even more time to land in normandy, that is, when they had already directly landed in europe , well, it was all very long and boring , in fact, when this, you know, concept emerged, it became clear that the soviet... union was behaving very proactively and it had to be restrained, again, and they did not believe until 1991 , until the soviet bloc actually disintegrated first, the warsaw pact, and then

the soviet union did not collapse either, they did not believe that this could happen, and objectively speaking, they did not actively work for it, they were afraid of the collapse of the soviet union, there is absolutely nothing new here, well that is, they did not expect, they believed that it would be some terrible nuclear some kind of story. as a result , nuclear weapons became less as a result of the collapse of the soviet union, they became less perfect and actually underwent nuclear disarmament, objectively of the world, that is, the same story will happen with the collapse of russia, when the russian federation collapses, it will also lead to a decrease in the militarization of the world, but you simply should not expect it from the americans, that's what friends, i 'll tell you, the americans will not do it. we will do it, our neighbors will do it, after all, the same poles, lithuanians, estonians, that is, people from whom nothing like this was expected, plus some, i think, will join here.

tatars, kazakhs, bashkirs are the same, in the end, that is, somewhere it will happen, that is, the americans will again be the last to say god, it fell apart, as a matter of fact, and something must be done about it, they are not very quick in their decision-making, well, but the ukrainians have no other way out now, and it is clear that the final stage of the great russian-ukrainian war is now underway, which lasts not less than 10 years, centuries. but we are in the finals of these competitions with the russian federation for our independence, for our freedom, for our will, and here the main thing is also to keep a cool head and unity is the most important thing, unity - this was probably the main theme last week, especially the issue of unity in western media, zaikonomist wrote a lot about it and there were several publications about

what is happening in ukraine, this week i already mentioned on the air that my colleagues from tokyo called me from brussels and asked me to comment on the misunderstandings that arise between zelsky and zaluzhny, i am in tokyo i even asked a journalist from tokyo, sasahi, a journalist, called me , i say, i even asked, i say, that’s exactly it, it ’s necessary, it’s hard-working, hard-working and zelensky, yes, they focus on the british media, they focus on the european media, they are trying to understand whom they are helping, so let's break down this story that ukraine got into with zaluzhny and zelskyi, with this conflict, with this insane, bezungla, which has been spinning this story for the last month, that zaluzhny has to resign, because he does not fulfill some of his obligations, what is it? if

she is trying to broadcast her opinion without an angle, why is she not put in her place, and if no one speaks about the fact that she is doing something stupid and does not give her a shot from a pro-government force, how does she type messages in her social networks, why, in fact, and the president and the head of the president's office, why are they, in principle, by the way, i am told that anna miroshnichenko has joined us, anya, i congratulate you and i am glad to see you on our air , and i congratulate you, friends, i congratulate everyone, well, we have already started about this epochal big, well, not a conflict, i would say so, insinuations around the conflict between zelensky and zaluzhny, and anya, let's start with you, since you have already joined our ether, we observe

because of this, the media, international, will observe many questions from western journalists about the fact that there is no unity in ukraine, you look at what is happening between zaluzhny and zelsky, zelensky does not say anything about it, zaluzhny does not say anything about it, well, there is only maryana bezugla, there is someone out there , the deputy head of the president's office, zhovkva, once spoke about being diligent, he allowed himself some things, some statements, but why can't zelskyi put a single stamp on it. even with one phrase, that there is no conflict between us, and let's not talk about it anymore speak. sergey, you said that the hardworking man does not talk about it, so i support valery fedorovych, i prefer that he not talk, i would, i would not like him to discuss these points that you and i are discussing on the air, well this is my opinion, i want to say the following thing that i fell out of the information space for a week and there were

things, i went abroad and i was very... surprised that when i returned to ukraine, on the train in the compartment of a woman of my mother's age, she was in her 70s, they continued to discuss the fact that maryana was crazy about something there they write to me on facebook, and i just left the country, i thought that i would return and it would all fall apart somehow, yes, i thought that zelsky would speak and declare, what are you saying now serhii, i thought that mar she will say something, the faction will say something, i don't know, the chairman of the verkhovna rada or someone else. and here it turns out that i have returned and i am again falling into this information mess related to maryana bezuglii, and i am very sorry that we are forced to discuss this, we are discussing because we cannot, it seems to me to understand who is really behind maryana, whether it is she herself who publishes these posts on facebook, or someone under her...'