in a word, on december 4, we are all watching this event carefully, because a lot depends on it, first the senate, then the lower house, and we still need to find a compromise, this is the main thing, well, in a word, so gradually, we will talk, thank you very much, gentlemen, taras zagorodnia, oleksandr kharov, volodymyr fasenko. 1 +1 i will continue the national telethon, with you the night watch project, a discussion platform where we discuss the most important topics that concern society today, with you is maria vasilieva, i am yevhen plinsky and the topic of our conversation the border is blocked, we will talk about it with serhiy vovko, director of the center for transport strategies and stanislav zhelikhovsky, an expert internationalist, welcome to our studio, friends, good evening. well, the situation is complicated and turned out

to be rather unexpected for ukraine, when in may of this year a group of radical polish activists blocked one checkpoint for one day, everyone treated it like this with a smile, rather not seriously, in november, in the early days, a month ago they repeated their action, and this time they turned out to be that they blocked the border for real , a pass, a month, thousands of cars are standing , counting the losses of the country almost to the point where we lost one gdp, and so far, despite the fact that a fairly small number of polish representatives of carriers have started this movement, yes, it turns out that that no one sees a solution to the problem yet, so let's go mr. serhiy, let's start with you. how do you see the main problem

of this situation, why did it arise and where is the gap for its solution? well, first of all, we have to understand here that there are no small things, that is, even those signals that we really did not take seriously at first, because we thought that these, the roads of solidarity, are our main transport communication with europe, which ultimately affects not only the economic, but also the security factor, which, well here no one can block the story, now we see that it happened, that is, it says, this is probably a clear indicator for us that there are no small things here and we need to immediately work with such signals, factor number two, we see that really started very a difficult process of negotiations with the eu, regarding our entry, real entry, and real conditions of work in common markets, in these common markets there are operators from two countries, these two

countries may have business interests that do not coincide, obviously for poland the factor of transport and the factor of transit is also transit, transit transportation is one of the most important, because, well, they actually created a monopoly in europe, yes, on transportation during the years when they joined the eu. i won't say it's a monopoly, because there are european anti-monopoly authorities, they know me they will not be praised for this, but they have created a really dominant position there, thanks to cheaper prices, a more aggressive position on the market, a willingness to work where, let's say, old europe already does not want to work under such conditions and at such prices, and accordingly, they really dominate now, and for the poles, this is now 30% of their export earnings from the export of services, this is a lot, it is about 7% of gdp, er, it is about, if i am not mistaken, 6.5 of the entire working-age population, which employed in the segment of transport and maintenance of these transports of cargo, that is, the problem: very significant, at

the same time, ukraine is definitely not a determining factor here, since the main main point of income is transportation in the middle of europe. i think that it is very important for us to find a really civilized way out of this, this problem, which to a large extent will also be a precedent, because we see that what is happening in poland is somewhat overturned already to slovakia, there is also hungary, that is... we need to show that we are ready for a civilized dialogue, and this civilized dialogue is possible when we clearly separate politics, business, and probably in this case also the law enforcement component, because we perfectly understand that there is only one beneficiary of this whole story, it is russia, i do not want to repeat this much now, but strategically only they will win, so tactically now we need to sit down and deal with the transport component, and this transport component probably has... only one point

that we cannot discuss here is the point about returning to the permit system. it does not correspond to ukrainian interests or the whole of the course that ukraine. approved in brussels and which brussels confirmed to us, here you know, if you look at the facts, this agreement was signed in brussels, so the guys should block not our border, but actually brussels, but if we are serious, then this is the only condition, on which we cannot give in to, and we have stated this very clearly at all official levels, all other conditions, all other stories related to the rules for crossing the border with polish cars, traffic rules. empty, empty trucks, access conditions companies from various, well, respectively, ukrainian in poland and polish in ukraine markets, we can discuss all this, we can sit down and talk about it step by step, professionally and find a common language, because it is

a mutually beneficial interest, we are not beggars here, in fact, the poles and even the polish transport industry also very much depends on ukraine, at least in two things, firstly, it is in favor of cooperation with ukrainian drivers, who are currently lacking not only in poland and in europe, in general, and it is interested in the future, i will emphasize in prospects, including also in work on the ukrainian market, which is also interesting and attractive, of course, now it is not as interesting to them as, for example, work in western europe, due to other safe factors, but in general, we are promising and a large market and we have to work with it, in fact, we will talk about what this protest and blocking is more about, is it about politics or, after all, about the economy. i want to include mr. stanislav and talk about another aspect, now there is a transition of power in poland, and this situation arose against the background when, let's say, one government leaves, another must come, and in this situation, the polish authorities took a very long time

to react to this blockade in any way, and when they reacted, it turned out that in principle they were ready to support almost all of the same demands blockers, why so, can you explain, it is connected with the fact that the law and justice party is leaving power, and some other political forces are supposed to take its place, or is it just a coincidence? indeed, for almost a whole month polish transporters are blocking transport routes, and until recently polish farmers joined them, obviously now we are observing that the situation is far from over. and those demands that are now being put forward to official kyiv , of course, they are unacceptable, and this should be understood, however, of course, we must, in fact, take into account all the circumstances, all the factors that are happening, in fact, in the context of these strikes, of course, here one cannot fail

to notice that the protest actions coincided with the end of the electoral cycle, namely the elections to the polish parliament, which took place on october 15, and obviously it comes to mind that this may not be just like that, and now more and more it is said that the political factor of this situation is not excluded, especially considering that before these rallies, let's say , were joined by representatives of political forces, in particular, the well-known party of the confeder... of freedom and independence, known for its anti-ukrainian slogans, as well as anti-european views, which, let's say, are identical to those that we can hear from kremlin propagandists, and

of course, when the farmers have already joined, we see that among these protesters there are representatives of the association of deceived villages, and i want to remind you that it was this movement that was involved in the mass protests of polish farmers at the beginning of this year, and then well, they were joined by representatives of the confederation, which are closely related to him, well, that is, in fact, we can equate the situation that existed then, which was actually related to the elections, but now we see that this protests may be associated with fasting. election process, and obviously, taking into account the fact that the government, which is currently headed by mateusz morevetskii, reacted very weakly to this situation, because it mostly supports the demands of farming, it can be assumed that all this is, let's say, a kind of

political trap for the successors, namely for the government of donald tusk , who will soon take, let's say, the levers of government in the republic of poland, so that it would not be very easy for them, let's say, at the beginning, and actually, how to solve this situation inside the country, where there is a large part of the electorate also for the party's civic platform tusk, as well as co-conflicts , well, of course with external partners, such as ukraine, the european union, to actually make it difficult for them to be embarrassed, to understand with them, well, of course, so that when law and justice have already moved into opposition, in the final dimension, she will of course be able to use this in order to get certain political dividends, because here i

would like to emphasize that the electoral cycle does not end with the parliamentary elections, poland has actually entered the election marathon, next year local elections are to be held elections, as well as parliamentary elections , well, in 2025 there are to be presidential elections in poland, so of course, law and justice will use all possible means to discredit the new government and we can even now see how the government is behaving, which now, the morevetsi government can be called temporary, which rather behaves more like the opposition than the government, and therefore i do not rule out that one of the main reasons for all these strikes were political motives, which are aimed at achieving law and justice for the government with the help of such political forces as a confederation of their own political

goals, sir, but the government, i want to quote donald tusk right here, yes, he will comment on history, now it will be very, by the way, to quote, he stated that this is inaction that cannot be to forgive, in this way we endanger polish-ukrainian relations and do not protect polish interests, law and justice, murovetskyi and kaczynskii are terribly unprofessional in a dilettante way. and they very cynically played the ukrainian card, well, this is actually proof that the blocking of the border is small by a group of radicals of radicals of radicals and the carriers controlled by them, this is actually a political raffle inside poland itself , it is absolutely true , has the ukrainian government done enough to find an understanding with the polish carriers, the government, because of course we can wait until december 15 or when it is supposed to be there in mid

-december, it seems that the transition of power will take place , but what is happening now, are you finding an understanding with the ukrainian government, are you in contact with them, have they done enough in your opinion for this situation to make, well, which one is softer for our carriers? well, i will say this, in my opinion , it is not enough, a very simple example, the direct blocking began on the 6th, and on november 6, we finished - the ukrainian authorities arrived and, let's say, formalized at least somehow, except for the demands that were on the 13th - oh, in a week , you can get to the border faster, i remember how drivers just stormed our there and telegram channels, addressed journalists, wrote, please highlight this issue, because no one hears us, this is the first. .. well, to our credit, now we have started to really work with the provision of at least some conditions for the drivers, who, let’s say,

people here are no longer conditional slaves, because they bear the financial responsibility for that cargo, they cannot leave it at the border, at the same time live in those the conditions that exist there, especially with the cold weather, well, this is just terrible, so now we have not joined in solving this problem, but it is obvious that it is already a bit late, that is , it was necessary to work preventively, preventively from the point of view of even explanations, because now, for example, the polish press, then you will not see this problem very much at the national level, that is, we, we specially looked at the polish press, the same election newspaper, and other leading polish publications, there are several articles that in fact simply describe the situation, well trucks are blocked, no one understands, i believe that now ukrainian politicians should not leave polish screens and explain to them that, look, this is not only about the transport industry, it is about a much more meaningful one. history, it hits your own business, we already see it for example, polish dairy farmers, they are talking

about, wait, we are also losing the market, a very simple example, we have volume after volume of imports, i am talking now about imports, so what is imported into ukraine per year is about 36 billion dollars, i.e. conditionally, how much we make, if by 12, it will be 3 billion dollars a month there, so the cost to you for europe is 3 billion dollars a month, someone did not sell products there. for ukraine, it is about 1 million hryvnias, this is only what the european business association calculated among its members in daily losses, well, what i am today found fresh information, 20% of imports were brought out with blocked ones, let's take a small break, for a few minutes, continue this important topic, stay with us, friends,

chavorons, who are approaching victory. step by step, they move from one danger to another, step by step, they liberate our land from invisible death, fields and forests, homes that have been visited by evil, without sappers , life will not return here, without the courage and dedication of these people, we we will not return home. we thank the sappers of the state emergency service of ukraine for your work and our safety. from now on goodies under the pillow will appear in time. on december 6, we celebrate saint nicholas day.

rules of a warm country: healthy care. it is cool in the house, but not cold. thank you for putting in your deer. it is easier to warm one person than to heat a whole apartment. let's beat the winter together. 1.1 continues its broadcast, the night watch is with you, we are talking about the blocked border. stanislav zhelikhovsky is with us, serhiy vovk. i will continue. i wanted to clarify more. that the muravetsky government plans to apply to the european union with such a request to restore the permit system for carriers, this is exactly what was the main demand of these blockers, can you explain in a little more detail for our viewers what kind of permit system it is, why it is bad and unprofitable for ukraine, and what can

there will be consequences if the polish government really lobbies for this demand, look, this system existed before the start of active hostilities, that is, until 2021, every year on an interstate basis we had a certain distributed a certain number of permits approximately 50 for 50, it was about 360 thousands of permits, there is plus or minus 10-20% per year, they are different, different amounts, we divided them in half and, accordingly, in order to enter the territory of poland, the ukrainian carrier had to have such a permit, that's right, the polish carrier had a permit, had to have... a permit to enter ukrainian territory, it always, always turned out that these permits expired, well, probably in september-october, and a situation arose when these permits were not enough, and accordingly, there was a reason for corruption, because someone those he gives out permits, accordingly, someone could support them, someone could not fulfill

the obligations he took on, this is the first time, the second time there was such a distortion in the direction of poland, because...' polish companies had this permission, she could carry out this transportation, respectively, but the price was higher, a ukrainian, of course, wants to work with ukrainians, including on economic factors, and after the start of active hostilities, we are at the level of the european union, i will emphasize the european union of ukraine, signed an agreement about the so- called transport visa-free, which allowed without any permits by the ukrainian transport operator, to drive to european countries, this agreement initially even...' allowed us to drive cars with a slightly lower environmental class, then we raised the environmental class to euro-5 and higher, that is , these are the requirements that are in place in europe today, and this agreement is being extended every year, the current agreement is valid until june 30, 2024, and obviously these actions that are already here today, they are already,

you know, like artillery preparation for what is to come take place so as not to prolong this agreement further, but again, i very much doubt that this will be the real position of poland regarding this agreement after we have a new government in place. i will allow myself to simply give a very short chronology of how poland in general reacted to this, the current polish government to this conflict. at first, there was no information at all, only one official notice that we are a problem, we are dealing with it, we created a working commission there, it was all at the official level, commented on the situation, protesters, then, literally a day before his resignation, mr. adamchyk, the former minister of infrastructure, comes out with an official position that we want to cancel it there, give access to its queue, create a separate queue for trucks, and this was not directly said, but we at the level of the european union

, we are initiating a review of questions about the effectiveness of this agreement, and we have a certain number of documents there that testify that ukraine is violating this agreement, the next day the adamchyk government, this first government of mazovetsi, let's call it that, goes to resignation, the new government of mazovia comes in, which, i don't know, seems like a colleague will correct me, but it seems like two weeks, he has a limit there until... december, and already a representative, the new minister of this government will go to this meeting, which will be on monday , on this issue, to which, by the way , hungary and slovakia have also expressed a desire to join, certain surprises await us there to understand the point of view of european political processes and our integration into the eu this precedent, because we understand, well, we see that when it comes to the practical integration of ukraine into the european space, we come across such stories, and more and more of them will appear, and

it turns out that we are not ready for a practical solution, that is, there is an eu council, there is global support for our entry, politically it has already been decided, ukraine is europe, but when we come to some practical steps of integration, we cancel permits, our drivers appear there, our...' appears there in europe, it causes opposition, in response to which we actually don't know what to do, we are running to, excuse me, like children to their parents, to the eu council, oops, here and there the poles are stirring something up, calm them down, that in the future we will have, when they say, there will be a solution ukraine a member of the european union, and these problems, they will, well, only increase, well , in general, first of all, you need to see that ukraine is not the first to face such problems on the part of the member states of the european union, i want to remind you how much hungary is to us, it was

also done in the context of our european and euro-atlantic integration several years ago, therefore, in principle, this is not something new for us, and of course now , when we see when the russian federation's own-scale aggression began, nothing in principle has changed, all the same, one or another government, they stand up for themselves some of his political positions, which are often involved in populism, in, let's say, flirting with the electorate, and many of them use one or another method as blackmail, for example, in negotiations with the same brussels, and we see, again anyway, how is the prime minister of hungary victor behaving orban, now he has been joined by robert vico, who is also unknown as to what will happen. to play in the european arena, and we see how the government of law and justice also repeatedly had problems with the european union, the european

commission, still, warsaw does not receive the funds that were frozen for the recovery of the polish economy after the coronavirus pandemic, and of course, this there is also some kind of game, and now we see that most likely the government really. wants to actually make a certain kind of trap for the actual government of donald tusk, so that he, let's say, was forced to solve this problem from the first days, and it is quite difficult, taking into account the fact that if politics is also involved in this, then obviously, here it is necessary to flesh out the situation very, let's say so filigree, because in order to in order for the government to have support in the coming months and years, so that it actually goes down in history as a progressive government, as was the case with donald tusk's government during his first term, from 2007 to 2014, it is obviously

necessary to find ways to resolve the situation so that no one gets hurt, and this is very difficult, taking into account the fact that, as i have already said, there is an electorate and its co-conflicts, and who also have specific views. on these things, it is necessary to agree with brussels in order not to actually fall under the punishment of the european commission, and of course to build relations with ukraine, which have suffered greatly in the last more than six months, and in particular from the same political processes that are taking place in of poland, that is, in fact, now in front of donald tusk and other ministers. is standing a very difficult task and it is very important that everything be resolved in the near future, and

obviously, you asked when the government can actually head, when it will take the oath, now we are talking about december 11-12, maybe there will be an oath and 13- oh, sometime these days, and of course the next day, on december 14 , donald tusk will fly to the eu summit in brussels, and perhaps these issues will also be resolved there, well, actually, to have the opportunity to somehow already... start the process of unlocking these borders, so as not to there were, let's say, these problems, which have accumulated in recent times , so i think the situation will be resolved here, unfortunately, it happens that even though we have some kind of agreement, in particular, with the european union, these politicians use it and not only for in relation to ukraine, we see it everywhere

, that's how it happens, well, these are the realities of modern international politics, we will still hope that it is donald tusk's government that will fundamentally change polish politics, because donald tusk is one of the very influential european politicians and very pro-european for poland itself, which now , as we know, is being left by the government of the centrist right and is to be replaced by the government of euro-optimists, yes, as they sometimes say in our country, jenya, and you promised to tell about the russian trail in the protest, about whether indeed, moscow's ears are sticking out behind this blocking of the border, etc., sometimes it seems to us that this is all-ukrainian paranoia, to look everywhere for the hand of the kremlin, but in this situation, well, in fact, direct evidence shows this, because the party whose leader is the main organizer of this shares are a kind of rafal makler, he is the owner of a polish transport company, which during the war... serves

goods and delivers them to belarus and russia, and his party, people's right, if i'm not mistaken, it's called people's movement, sorry, it's part of the confederation, together they speak out in support of putin, they speak out to block aid to ukraine, they present, he holds performances, this rafal makler bills ukraine for 100 billion zlotys, that ukraine is already guilty of aid. that is, it leads active pro-russian, that is, it is not only about transportation, it is there in general, here, when it comes to the same thing, the problem is complex, yes, there is, there is also a question about transportation, so when polish drivers complain about the fact that there is an electronic queue, there is a queue that ukrainian drivers do not manipulate, and this is also true, because ukrainian drivers had the opportunity to register in the queue while still in poland, that is, our driver is still driving, he has not yet...

returned, has not loaded, he is registering in the queue, and so far he came back, he is loading, there is another load, it is already simple goes to the border and passes it, and the polish driver stands in the general queue there for a week, but the polish drivers did not like it, another story, when perishable goods are passed through the border according to a separate procedure, our drivers put one or two there is a box of raspberries, the drivers said and drove to the border. they say, we have perishable goods, and the poles also present this, and therefore, on the one hand , there is really an interest of russia, and there are groups in poland that shake up this topic, playing along with moscow, on the other hand, well, and there are problems with electronic queue, they were , they are absolutely so, that is, i say again, there are a number of issues, they are, they need to be discussed, but in my opinion, it is very important here, you know, we really like this phrase about asymmetric war, we are here we also have to act asymmetrically, you used

it well, i liked it. an allegory at the expense of the parents, now it looks like this marriage with the european union, the parents agreed , the bride and groom forgot to put a check mark, it seems to me that, to put it simply, we need to explain that this marriage can be profitable, in the transport industry, these there are many arguments, the european transport system during the war years earned very little, very much, i apologize for ukrainian cargo, polish ports, gdynia gdansk today work with ukrainian and are almost fully loaded, containers enter polish ports and then go to ukraine. we, we are beneficial to europe, and we need to create a certain program in order to show that we did not come here to beg, we did not come here to take a piece of bread from you, we came here to give you the opportunity to earn and partly to earn for ourselves, in including, it must surely be such, well, i don't know, a pr program to which i have...